10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down

[Robert_Sock]

You cannot infer causality from correlation period. I don’t care about statistics. I care about establishing relationships between variables base on reliable data and sound data analysis techniques. Why do you keep bringing up quantum mechanics? It has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

No, you do not need to prove causality in order to establish likelihood. But that is not what you are doing. You are presenting correlation data and then trying to establish an if-then relationship.

Here is what you are doing:

The data shows that there is a positive correlation between having access to a gun in a home and the number of homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings in the home. Therefore, if we ban guns, then the number of homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings in the home will decrease. However, you have no evidence that is true. If-then statements are casual relationships.

I posted earlier that there is a correlation between kids sitting inside playing video games and obesity and that banning kids from sitting inside playing video games would not have an impact on childhood obesity because it is not a cause of obesity.

You have no proof that guns are the reason that there are homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings in the home. There could be other variables that you are not considering. I have had guns in my house since I was a kid and yet there has not been a homicide, suicide, or accidental shooting in my home. How do you explain that? Could it be that my father taught me how to handle a gun safely and treat it with respect at a young age? Could it be that my parents instilled values in me? Could it be that my parents taught me to value life? Could it be that I was raised in a Catholic household?

Just because public policy is based on surveys and correlations doesn’t mean it should be.

 

[freeRadical]

You can roll your eyes all you want. That’s very mature. Why don’t you actually respond to the points I brought up in that post?

 

[phil_at_dayboro]

You can roll your eyes all you want. That’s very mature. Why don’t you actually respond to the points I brought up in that post?

Robert generally has a one size fits all answer …

 

[Annie39]

Well I was going to post something else here but I’ll first ask, why is your money on LS?

And now the rest:

One more thing, until recently and for over 20 years I lived in the county next to the county where one of your gangs was founded San Bernardino, CA. I grew up in Los Angeles county, CA where the Crypts and the Bloods were founded. I know about street gangs. I know that the more that you try to suppress them, the bigger and fiercer they become. There were many more articles that I could have put on this thread but I had to stop somewhere. I don’t remember if I added the url of an article that displayed all the guns that were seized in a raid. They were guns that the “bikies” as they were called had made themselves. One can confiscate guns every day all day long and the thugs will find more.

Annie

I would like to make it more clear the guns that were seized were seized in Australia. We don’t call the criminals boiled but bikers.

 

[Annie39]

I would like to make it more clear the guns that were seized were seized in Australia. We don’t call the criminals boiled but bikers.

Here is the url of the seized guns.techgunsgear.com/more-australian-motorcycle-gang-diy-firearms-surface/

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

That is a very offensive statement to make about the United States and patently false.

Location Number killed Date

• Norway attacks 77 7/22/2011
• Sang-Namdo, South Korea 57 Apr-82
• Port Aurthur, Australia **35 ** 4/28/1996
• VA Tech ** 33** 4/16/2007
• Cave of the Patriarchs, Hebron Israel 29 2/24/1994
• Sandy Hook ** 28** 12/14/2012
• Luby’s Cafeteria ** 24** 10/16/1991
• San Ysidro McMassacre ** 22 ** 7/18/1984
• Dunblane, Scotland **18 ** 3/13/1996
• Erfurt, Germany **18 ** 4/26/2002
• Hungerford, UK **17 ** 8/19/1987
• Cuers, France ** 17 ** Sep-95
• Kandahar, Afghanistan **16 ** 3/11/2012
• Texas Tower Sniper 16 8/1/1966
• Winnenden, Germany **16 ** 3/11/2009
• Ecole Polytechnique, Montreal **15 ** 12/6/1989
• Columbine High 15 4/20/1999
• Edmond, OK **15 ** 8/20/1986
• Zug, Switzerland **15 ** 9/27/2001
• Aramoana, New Zealand 14 11/13/1990
• Binghampton, NY 14 4/3/2009
• Luxiol, France ** 14** Jul-89
• Fort Hood 13 11/5/2009
• Cumbria, England **13 ** 6/2/2010
• Rio de Janeiro, Brazil **13 ** 4/7/2011
• Aurora, CO ** 12 ** 7/20/2012
• Azerbaijan State Oil Academy **12 ** 4/30/2009
• McClendon, AL **10 ** 3/10/2009
• Kauhajoki, Finland 10 9/23/2008
• GMAC, FL **10 ** 6/18/1990
• Red Lake, MN 10 3/21/2005
• Adelaide, Australia **10 ** 9/6/1991

I compiled a list of the 32 worst mass shootings (that I could find. I do not claim omniscience here). I picked 32 deaths as the cut-off because that makes 10 dead the low end. This does not include bombings and is should be noted that every other country has more stringent gun restrictions than the U.S.

Awaiting your apology, longing soul

Good Morning Zoltan Cobalt: This is a rather interesting chart actually. I’m glad you presented it, but it rather suggests that Longing Soul has made a statement that is not patently false. Here is my analysis of the numbers you have posted:

-If you count the number of mass shootings on your chart and tally the number of instances by country, the US is a profoundly significant statistical outlier, with 12 instances for one country, with the **rest of the entire world combined **having 20. Nearly 40% of the worst mass shootings in the world in one country.

-The closest runner ups are the UK and Australia with 2 each

Let’s adjust for population:

  -The population of the world is 7 Billion

  -The population of the US is 317 Million

-According to your chart, 4% of the population of the planet has nearly 40% of the worst mass shootings.

-That 4% lives in the United States.

These numbers are not only statistically significant, but astounding, and they strongly suggest that Longing Soul in fact has a valid point. This wasn’t posted by left wing liberals. It was posted by you. Thank you for this.

Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Good Morning Zoltan Cobalt: This is a rather interesting chart actually. I’m glad you presented it, but it rather suggests that Longing Soul has made a statement that is not patently false. Here is my analysis of the numbers you have posted:

-If you count the number of mass shootings on your chart and tally the number of instances by country, the US is a profoundly significant statistical outlier, with 12 instances for one country, with the rest of the entire world combined having 20. Nearly 40% of the worst mass shootings in the world in one country.

-The closest runner ups are the UK and Australia with 2 each

Let’s adjust for population:

  -The population of the world is 7 Billion

  -The population of the US is 317 Million

-According to your chart, 4% of the population of the planet has nearly 40% of the worst mass shootings.

-That 4% lives in the United States.

These numbers are not only statistically significant, but astounding, and they strongly suggest that Longing Soul in fact has a valid point. This wasn’t posted by left wing liberals. It was posted by you. Thank you for this.

Gary

I forgot to mention that of the instances you posted from the rest of the world, one of these was an incident in Kandahar, Afghanistan, which was committed by an American Staff Sergeant. Just some icing on the cake.

 

[jmcrae]

How does a car convey you safely from place to place?

You get inside it, you start it up, you clear the windows of any obstructions, you get out to walk around the vehicle to make sure everything is in working order, you get back in, you start moving the vehicle when the way is clear, and you follow the rules of the road, while watching for those who may be distracted, drunk, inexperienced, or tourists who’ve lost their way, and accommodating your driving to account for errors on their part, as well as staying within the speed limit, staying out of people’s blind spots, stopping when required, and looking out for kids.

You do these things, you will most likely arrive safely at your destination, and so will everyone else you encounter along the way.

Again - how does using a gun (yet apparently not intending to use it on anyone) get you safely from one place to another?

 

[tabycat]

Um, Australia & the U S have the same culture, we are both populated by the U K & Europe
The only major differences is the fact you had wholesale slavery & bus loads of Mexicans ,
Fortunately you had a couple of excellent presidents,and a couple hundred years head start., so I guess you should be in front on several issues, but are you ?
Which 30 cultures are you talking about ? Perhaps 30 American Indian tribes ?
Well, you got us there,
If a gun trotting person stops a massacre would that be reported here, ?
I think it would, , if U S sink holes & misunderstood brown bears get coverage here,
Then yes we would hear about it,
And your last comment, if a man mistakenly shoots his son , thinking he was a burglar ,
A criminal breaking into his neighbours house… Well, I guess you can claim your second amendment, tell that to the boys mother,
Like I’v said several times, there are no real winners to this argument,
Fortunately for everyone in the free world, we have some form of democracy & free speech
We can thank men and women who laid down there lives for us that we have this great privilege ,

Maybe you would like to tell the Navaho/Ute/Blackfoot (or any other First Nation trilbe) that they have the same culture as the ‘white eyes’ have, go ahead and do it.

 

[tabycat]

You guys like to hold on to stuff don’t you. You know that was a while back right?

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Maybe I should have mentioned the Munich Peace Treaty back in 1938 that stabed the country that my grandparents and aunt came from (they were Czechs).
Old saying: The basic Irish problem is that the Irish can not forget and the English refuse to remember. :knight2::irish1::shamrock2:

 

[Robert_Sock]

You can roll your eyes all you want. That’s very mature. Why don’t you actually respond to the points I brought up in that post?

I’m in no way trying trying to insult you, but without sources for your rather bold claims, I cannot comment on your posts more than what I already said. Your claims are simply false.

LOVE!

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Good Morning Zoltan Cobalt: This is a rather interesting chart actually. I’m glad you presented it, but it rather suggests that Longing Soul has made a statement that is not patently false. Here is my analysis of the numbers you have posted:

-If you count the number of mass shootings on your chart and tally the number of instances by country, the US is a profoundly significant statistical outlier, with 12 instances for one country, with the rest of the entire world combined having 20. Nearly 40% of the worst mass shootings in the world in one country.

-The closest runner ups are the UK and Australia with 2 each

Let’s adjust for population:

  -The population of the world is 7 Billion

  -The population of the US is 317 Million

-According to your chart, 4% of the population of the planet has nearly 40% of the worst mass shootings.

-That 4% lives in the United States.

These numbers are not only statistically significant, but astounding, and they strongly suggest that Longing Soul in fact has a valid point. This wasn’t posted by left wing liberals. It was posted by you. Thank you for this.

Gary

Your figures are accurate and so is your conclusion. (Actually it works out to 37% of mass shootings)

My point was to show that mass shootings occur elsewhere in the world and in countries that have much stricter control of firearms than the U.S.

Now having 40% of the world’s mass shootings is nothing to be proud of, what can be done?

Don’t say more restrictive controls…that’s not working for the other 60%.

 

[Annie39]

Some stats to consider as we think about the fact that Sandy Hook elementary school was a gun free zone. There was no one there to protect those little ones. They were sitting ducks for the murderer.

When armed citizens stop would-be mass murderers it doesn’t make the mainstream media because everyone in the MSM is for gun control. Some examples in the urls below

beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/12/mass-killings-stopped-by-armed-citizens-2515074.html

gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/one-in-ten-mass-shootings-stopped-by.html

New Zealand is strikingly similar to Australia. Both are isolated island nations, demographically and socioeconomically similar. Their mass murder rates before Australia’s gun ban was nearly identical: From 1980 to 1996, Australia’s mass murder rate was 0.0042 incidents per 100,000 people and New Zealand’s was 0.0050 incidents per 100,000 people.

The principal difference is that, post-1997, New Zealand remained armed to the teeth – including with many guns that were completely banned in Australia.

While it’s true that Australia has had no more mass shootings since its gun ban, neither has New Zealand, despite continuing to be massively armed.
Although mass shootings have stopped in Australia other crime statistics are up here is a video highlighting this youtube.com/watch?v=OyS3CEIbpJo

Annie

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Some stats to consider as we think about the fact that Sandy Hook elementary school was a gun free zone. There was no one there to protect those little ones. They were sitting ducks for the murderer.

When armed citizens stop would-be mass murderers it doesn’t make the mainstream media because everyone in the MSM is for gun control. Some examples in the urls below

beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/12/mass-killings-stopped-by-armed-citizens-2515074.html

gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/one-in-ten-mass-shootings-stopped-by.html

New Zealand is strikingly similar to Australia. Both are isolated island nations, demographically and socioeconomically similar. Their mass murder rates before Australia’s gun ban was nearly identical: From 1980 to 1996, Australia’s mass murder rate was 0.0042 incidents per 100,000 people and New Zealand’s was 0.0050 incidents per 100,000 people.

The principal difference is that, post-1997, New Zealand remained armed to the teeth – including with many guns that were completely banned in Australia.

While it’s true that Australia has had no more mass shootings since its gun ban, neither has New Zealand, despite continuing to be massively armed.
Although mass shootings have stopped in Australia other crime statistics are up here is a video highlighting this youtube.com/watch?v=OyS3CEIbpJo

Annie

Annie: What evidence is there that laws against abortions would be more effective than laws against guns? Having laws against something is only a start.

Thanks
Gary

 

[YADA]

Annie: What evidence is there that laws against abortions would be more effective than laws against guns? Having laws against something is only a start.

Thanks
Gary

The two are not morally equivalent …

An Abortion is an ‘act’ - the act of killing an innocent unborn child - its a form of murder … And we have laws in this country against murder in many forms - … First degree, manslaughter, etc. Since murder is against the law - allowing a particular form of murder against a specific victim is heinous and justice in the law should be actively pursued by every moral citizen , abortion is a crime against our God given right to life and the protections of that right in the Constitution as well …

Firearms are objects and Gun control is an assault on our Constitutional protections against the tyranny of the government - the domestic enemy of the our Country / Constitution - … when you take the Oath - that Oath is to defend the Constitution from all enemy’s - foreign and domestic

And there are tyrannical governments - ours could become one … as have many governments in the past and in the present … and the first action of tyranny is to dis-arm the populace … it happened in Germany …

You have never answered my question on the irony that our government is working diligently to disarm US citizens while at the same time it is arming private citizens in various parts of the world - where they have no right to bare arms - so that they can rise up against their oppressors …

I ask you - in the future - if or when we - the citizens of the United States - need to rise up to defend liberty and freedom - who would come to our aid and arm us?

Do people do bad things with the tool that is a firearm? … yes - they can … they also use cars, knives, hammers, drugs and a host of other items to do evil…

Firearms are also used for a host of other activities that are morally good and morally neutral.

 

[freeRadical]

I’m in no way trying trying to insult you, but without sources for your rather bold claims, I cannot comment on your posts more than what I already said. Your claims are simply false.

LOVE!

What claims do I need to back up? I am just pointing out the basics of statistical analysis.

 

[freeRadical]

You get inside it, you start it up, you clear the windows of any obstructions, you get out to walk around the vehicle to make sure everything is in working order, you get back in, you start moving the vehicle when the way is clear, and you follow the rules of the road, while watching for those who may be distracted, drunk, inexperienced, or tourists who’ve lost their way, and accommodating your driving to account for errors on their part, as well as staying within the speed limit, staying out of people’s blind spots, stopping when required, and looking out for kids.

You do these things, you will most likely arrive safely at your destination, and so will everyone else you encounter along the way.

Again - how does using a gun (yet apparently not intending to use it on anyone) get you safely from one place to another?

Do you know how many vehicle accidents there are in the US each year? Be a good and safe driver does not protect from dumb, bad, and unsafe drivers.

A gun allows me to walk from point A to point B with the ability to defend myself from those who would like to do harm to me.

 

[Robert_Sock]

What claims do I need to back up? I am just pointing out the basics of statistical analysis.

I’m not renouncing data. I’m simply pointing out that you are inferring a casual relationship from a correlation. You cannot do that. That is bad science. **I do not understand what probability has to do with trying to establish a casual relationship between variables. **

Let’s look at an example of why you cannot infer a casual relationship from a correlation. There is a positive correlation between kids that sit inside and play video games and obesity. Does that mean that sitting inside playing video games cause obesity? Of course not! If we banned kids from sitting inside playing video games would that lower the rate of obesity among children in the US? Maybe, maybe not. It probably would not have any impact because sitting inside playing video games is not a cause of obesity. Yet you are doing the same thing with guns. It is bad science plain and simple and all it does is show that you do not understand statistical analysis.

The point it moot thought. The only way you could ever ban guns in the US is by repealing the Second Amendment. Good luck with that.

You need to provide your source for claiming that surveys, which are based on correlations, are of no value because they are not causal. Again, for example, much of public policy is based on these types of correlations, and the results are well regarded. You also need to provide a source for saying that ‘probability’ has nothing to do with establishing causality. All non-descriptive statistics are based on probabilities.

LOVE!

 

[phil_at_dayboro]

Do you know how many vehicle accidents there are in the US each year? Be a good and safe driver does not protect from dumb, bad, and unsafe drivers.

A gun allows me to walk from point A to point B with the ability to defend myself from those who would like to do harm to me.

Are you that insecure that you need a gun to walk around in case you need to defend yourself ?

Or is your lifestyle or neighbourhood that dangerous that you need a cannon for defence?

I need no weapon of any form where I am, best you stay where you are,

We don’t need insecure paranoid types around here,

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

YADA;The two are not morally equivalent …

Firearms are objects and Gun control is an assault on our Constitutional protections against the tyranny of the government - the domestic enemy of the our Country / Constitution - … when you take the Oath - that Oath is to defend the Constitution from all enemy’s - foreign and domestic

I am always curious about people who claim the constitutional right to own a gun while wanting to take away constitutional rights to an abortion. On January 22, 1973, with a 7-to-2 majority vote the Supreme Court deemed abortion a fundamental right under the United States Constitution. The point is that the Constitution can be amended. If you don’t think it can be, then everyone should stop talking about ending abortion while carrying firearms and at the same citing the Constitution. It’s a dead argument, especially when the Supreme Court has also ruled that its powers extend to the ability to place limits on firearms that are not used for militias or military purposes.

I ask you - in the future - if or when we - the citizens of the United States - need to rise up to defend liberty and freedom - who would come to our aid and arm us?

From who? We have a military that is there to defend our liberties and freedoms, as well as local and state police. All of these are going to get together and turn on you? Federal, State and local governments have never coordinated that well. If they ever do, your gun isn’t going to be much help. However, we have elections and governmental checks and balances as well.

Do people do bad things with the tool that is a firearm? … yes - they can … they also use cars, knives, hammers, drugs and a host of other items to do evil…

Guns only have one purpose, which is to kill. That’s what they were invented for. cars, knives, hammers, drugs and the host of other items have practical and useful purposes that are not primarily for killing.