10 reasons why Jesus is not God

[Texas_Roofer]

I stumbled across an islamic website and it had a section labeled ‘10 reasons why Jesus is not God’

I found it interesting.
Your thoughts…

It is a bit of a misunderstanding to consider this a muslim issue as it existed before the muslim religion was founded. If you research “Arianism” you will find key formal issues addressed in years 325 & 335 so by no means is it new issue. The issue is about Jesus’ human nature which all acknowledge however catholics believe there is more than simply a human nature.

hope that helps

 

[LilyM]

Jesus said " I and the Father are one. " If you are one with the Father, you are the Father. Since God the Father is God, being one with the Father means you are one with God. And if you are one with God, you are God. Therefore, either the muslims must consider Jesus a liar, or else admit that Jesus is God.

Just to play devil’s advocate here - scripture also calls husband and wife ‘one flesh’ yet they are not literally the same as each other. And Jesus prays for His disciples to be one as Jesus and the Father are one - yet Christians can never all literally fuse together to the point of being literally the same as each other.

So your line of argument is not a very convincing one.

I would focus on more tangible proofs of Christ’s claim to divinity - His forgiveness of sin, His claim to be Lord of the Sabbath (surely a prerogative only reserved for God), His claim to preexist Abraham and the like.

 

[Nine_Two]

That page is clearly written by someone with no understanding of scripture, and desiring only to twist it to their beliefs.

The only point on the list over which one could actually have a discussion, and which is a valid point, is #1, which I note someone in this thread was an argument made by Maimonides, an intelligent man.

 

[graceandglory]

I stumbled across an islamic website and it had a section labeled ‘10 reasons why Jesus is not God’

I found it interesting.

Your thoughts…

THat is interesting. Thank you for sharing. Not a lot to say, but I’m glad we have a Pope, and a Magisterium.
“I and the Father are One.”
In the beginning was the Word.
And the Word became FLESH.

 

[jerry_joseph]

Main factor is that it is the basic requirement of Islam establish that Jesus is not God , inorder the prove its authenticity…That is why they are continously making these baseless arguments.

So no wonder, they will come again with similar questions…

Another argument muslims raises is that Christians forged the bible. If it is happened how did they know?. A faith which is originated 7 centuries after christ. If it is happened then where is the original text?. Who forged?. Which book /chapter/verse is forged?. What is the original verse?. At which place and time this forgery happed?. If OT is forged by christians, then it should be different from Jews. But reality is that christian OT and Jewsih bible are same.As jews concidering christianity as heretic , will they accepts any change made by so called heretics (christians)?.

If you are making argument against the faith and religious book of another religion , you should come with solid proof. Making baseless arguments is not correct…

If a change made by Roman Catholic church is acceptable to protestants or orthodox or vice versa ?

Atleast christianity is originated among Jews. Old testament of christianity is similar to that of Jews…But what about islam?. Their beliefs are entirely different from Jews and Christians…

Islam is not originated among jews or christians. It is originated among a pagan arab tribe those who adored pagan idols and never heard about Jewish God.

I dont know any Jews belive that last prophet will come from Arabs.

Muslims seems to be follow OT before a christian. But to those who read bible (OT) once in their life time , can easily understand that muslims are not following law of moses , but they are following islamic laws which is entirely different from law of mosses.

While islamic law forbids eating of pig and dog meat , it allows to eat to eat other meats which is forbidden as per law of mosess (Camel, Rabbits etc). Even camel is allowed to offer as sacrifice to God.Islamic law allows eating of all kinds of fishes , while law of mosess forbids eating of those fishes without scales.

Christians have a theological background , for allowing the consumption of meats and fishes forbidden in the law of mosess. By the christ’s scarifice in the cross, all things in the earth is purified by blood of christ.

What is the theological background for muslims , for changing the law of mosess.

Also in law of mosess circumcision is allowed for males only. But islamic law allows circumcision for both males and females…

A person with minimum commonsense can understand that arguments raising by muslims is not genuine. They are raising arguments ,for just for raising arguments…For establishing the authenticity of their faith.

 

[Nine_Two]

why Judaism does not believe Jesus is G-d. However, none of the 10 reasons this website states, except for the one proposed by Maimonides, is included. The Jewish argument is not based on the New Testament since it would be illogical to use something Judaism does not believe to be divinely inspired as the source of its criticism.

Is this the book “26 reasons” by Asher Norman? I’m looking at the authors website right now and it seems as low as the Muslim website. For example he argues Jesus didn’t meet the geneological requirements because tribal identity was patrilineal, and since Jesus had no earthly father he couldn’t be a Jew.
It also claims he wasn’t the Messiah because he didn’t return the Jewish people to Israel (they were already there, and the diaspora was free to return), and he didn’t rebuild the temple (it hadn’t been destroyed).

If this isn’t what you’re talking about, could you give links? It sounds interesting.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Yes that’s an alternate explanation.

One of the things I like about Catholicism is the fact that we do not have to take the Bible literally, word for word.

We can recognize that the Bible writers (and Church fathers) disagreed about important aspects of the faith, but unlike some Protestants, that needn’t undermine the faith, as we have tradition to rely upon as well.

I seriously doubt this statement. Especially because by doing that, they would be undermining the faith.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Look, we know that some of the gospel writers did not believe Jesus was divine. So there is no surprise if we find that claim in the gospels…

Hmmm. If you believe in the Catholic Church, you might want to reconsider…although your religion isn’t listed.

 

[Telstar]

1- Jesus is not all knowing.
Mark 24:32-36: God is all knowing, Jesus fails this main qualification. This alone is enough to prove that Jesus is not God. Also note the verse says ONLY the Father meaning nobody else, including the divine Jesus.

In that instance, Jesus was speaking as a man. While He lived on earth as a man, His knowledge of God was limited by the Father, so He would actually be more like every other man on earth. But, He was still fully God.

2- Jesus never said I am God.
Is this a coincidence? I think not. If you make a claim on someone, then you would expect that someone to back your claim up. If I claim somebody is a king, you would expect that king to say he is a king, at least once. In the OT God says he is God several times, why not once with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the OT says God does not change. Here are the passages from the OT where God says he is God: (various quotes proclaiming God in the singular) So as we can see, God is not shy to say I am God. SO if Jesus is God, then how come he never said it once like the God of the OT? This is not a coincidence.

Actually, He said it very plainly.
[Mark 14:61] But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said to him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God? [62] And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven.Just because the Muslims don’t understand the Trinity, that doesn’t mean Jesus isn’t God. As the Only Begotten Son of God, He is God. His use of the simple statement, “I AM”, was pretty clear to all of the Jews that heard Him say it.

3- Jesus is the son of man, the OT tells us not to trust the son of man.
The New Testament makes it very clear that Jesus is the son of man: Mat 8:20, Mat 9:6, Mat 12:8, etc. (all concerning the “Son of man”) The Old Testament tells us not to put our trust in the son of man: “Psalms 146: 1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.”

So note, Jesus is the son of man, the OT tells us not to put our trust in the son of man; therefore we cannot place our trust in Jesus so he cannot be God. The OT is basically saying that you shouldn’t put your trust in men as you do with God, so hence we cannot put our trust in Jesus in the same way we do with God since Jesus is just a man, and he cannot really save us. So hence Jesus cannot be God.

The Bible says not to trust the “son” or “sons” (lower case s) of men. But, the Son (capitalized) of man is the Messiah.*[Matthew 9:6] But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then said he to the man sick of palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go into thy house.*In the Psalm quoted, it says not to place our trust in the “son of man, in whom there is no help.” But that certainly doesn’t apply to Jesus, because only He can help us get to Heaven.

4- Jesus was GIVEN power and authority, he did not own it.
(John 13:3, John 17:6-8) So as we can see, Jesus GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracle, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracle. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak. So everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God. I challenge any Christian to bring me one single miracle Jesus performed on his own, just one. The Christian will never be able to meet this challenge.

Once again, when Jesus was living on earth as a man, everything He said or did came directly from His Father. He could only do what the Father allowed Him to do. He could only use the power that His Father allowed Him to use. That still doesn’t change the fact that He is God.

5- Jesus was sent to a specific nation only, not to mankind.
It is very strange that when we read the Bible, we find that Jesus was sent to preach to a specific nation only, not mankind. One would expect to find Jesus being sent to all of mankind if he was God, rather what we find is that Jesus just like all the other prophets, was sent to a specific nation only: (Mat 15:24, Mat 19:17) So note, the man calls Jesus good, Jesus tells the man there is no good but God. Obviously Jesus referred to God as someone else, which also proves Jesus isn’t God. However the main importance of the passages is that Jesus denies being Good in the way God is good, which is to be perfect.

Jesus was sent to redeem the House of Israel, but the Chief Priests and most of the Jews in authority rejected Him. Jesus also said that He had “other sheep”:*[John 10:] [15] As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. [16] And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. *
As far as the man that calls Jesus “good”: Jesus really doesn’t deny that He’s God in that passage. He asks why the man would call any other man “good” when only God is good, but he certainly doesn’t say that the man is wrong in calling Him “good”. I think the lesson is that we should understand that only God is always good, so we should be careful not to mistake any man’s goodness as coming from himself. Goodness always comes from God, alone.

 

[meltzerboy]

Can I ask, and with all due respect … I found the 26 reasons (not the book), and the site immediately speaks of Jews not intermarrying? I understand this. Did any of this arise in response to the “Jews for Jesus” movement that was so prevalent here (in NYC anyway) a number of years ago.

I worked with Orthodox Jews who actively worked to stop this “Jews for Jesus” movement, seeing it as an attempt to destroy Judaisim. It was notable that when one spoke with anyone from the “Jews for Jesus” movement, rarely (if at all) were any of them originally Jews who had converted from Judaisim into the “Jews for Jesus” movement or to Christianity. I, too, came to believe the movement was an agenda.

I’m wary (and weary) of the label of agenda and perceptions of agendas. Nonetheless, I am also under the impression that Jews for Jesus consists mainly of Messianic Jews who target traditional Jews for conversion. But you may be right regarding who they mainly consist of. The Jews for Judaism movement is a response against Jews for Jesus, in part, but mainly Evangelicals who, they believe, are attempting to convert Jews. However, is this an agenda for all Evangelicals? Certainly not since they are a diverse group. Intermarriage is forbidden by Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism and discouraged although permitted within Reform Judaism. Jewish Law requires a non-Jew who marries a Jew to convert to Judaism and raise their children in the Jewish faith. There is also a social issue involving the comparatively small number of Jews throughout the world, including Jews who only nominally consider themselves such. It is thought that the last thing we need as a people is to decrease our numbers further.

 

[traillius]

I’m wary (and weary) of the label of agenda and perceptions of agendas. Nonetheless, I am also under the impression that Jews for Jesus consists mainly of Messianic Jews who target traditional Jews for conversion. But you may be right regarding who they mainly consist of. The Jews for Judaism movement is a response against Jews for Jesus, in part, but mainly Evangelicals who, they believe, are attempting to convert Jews. However, is this an agenda for all Evangelicals? Certainly not since they are a diverse group. Intermarriage is forbidden by Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism and discouraged although permitted within Reform Judaism. Jewish Law requires a non-Jew who marries a Jew to convert to Judaism and raise their children in the Jewish faith. There is also a social issue involving the comparatively small number of Jews throughout the world, including Jews who only nominally consider themselves such. It is thought that the last thing we need as a people is to decrease our numbers further.

Interesting. My brother married a jewish woman, and they have two daughters. As far as I know both my brother and his wife are atheists. Can one be atheist and jewish? Also, my brother still receives the eucharist whenever he comes to visit, and go to mass with my mom. So, he is an atheist, -maybe jewish convert, who still indicates catholicism. Its all very confusing to me, and probably dangerous to his soul, as well as breaking laws of the RCC and jewish law. very interesting

 

[meltzerboy]

Interesting. My brother married a jewish woman, and they have two daughters. As far as I know both my brother and his wife are atheists. Can one be atheist and jewish? Also, my brother still receives the eucharist whenever he comes to visit, and go to mass with my mom. So, he is an atheist, -maybe jewish convert, who still indicates catholicism. Its all very confusing to me, and probably dangerous to his soul, as well as breaking laws of the RCC and jewish law. very interesting

We really should start a new thread since we’re way off topic here. But to answer your question: there are so-called atheist Jews, but it’s hard for me to understand exactly what that means. If it means the same as cultural or secular Jew, then it is usually one who believes in G-d but doesn’t practice Judaism (celebrating holidays, rituals, the Sabbath, going to synagogue, studying Torah and Talmud), or maybe just a little. At the same time, one takes a certain pride in the history of the Jewish people and Jewish culture. However, not to believe in G-d and call oneself a Jew is paradoxical. Technically though, if one is born of a Jewish mother, one is a Jew unless one converts to another religion. With respect to your brother, he seems to be breaking the laws of both the Church and Judaism. But G-d is merciful to us all, and we are not to judge another’s soul.

 

[Maximuss]

I stumbled across an islamic website and it had a section labeled ‘10 reasons why Jesus is not God’

I found it interesting.

Your thoughts…

I’ve stumbled upon a LOT of Islamic websites and YouTube videos that spell out how Jesus cannot be God. Its very difficult to have dialogue with Muslims on this matter. Part of the problem is because they do not understand the story of salvation history starting from the beginning of the Torah through the Gospels and being able grasp the “story” and the hundreds of correlations between Jesus and prophecies. The teachings of Islam are simple to understand and is a very basic form (in my opinion) of monotheism (Tawheed). The other difficult part as some others have stated is that anything in the Torah and Gospels that contradict the Quran is considered corrupted by man. In a Muslim’s eyes, the Quran is perfect…

Anyway at first glance when getting into Islamic studies I admit my faith was stirred but when I took the time to seek the answers I desperately needed I found them… Christ revealed the Truth, and surprisingly Islam revealed its truth. I’m writing about some of what I find as blatant and obvious violations in the Quran here:

www.islaminquisition.blogspot.com

Pray for our Muslim brothers and sisters.

 

[jonbhorton]

Just to play devil’s advocate here - scripture also calls husband and wife ‘one flesh’ yet they are not literally the same as each other. And Jesus prays for His disciples to be one as Jesus and the Father are one - yet Christians can never all literally fuse together to the point of being literally the same as each other.

So your line of argument is not a very convincing one.

I would focus on more tangible proofs of Christ’s claim to divinity - His forgiveness of sin, His claim to be Lord of the Sabbath (surely a prerogative only reserved for God), His claim to preexist Abraham and the like.

One in spirit, not corporal body. If one doesn’t understand the Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ, and read in context with that in mind, it’s easy to bungle this concept.

The Father and the Son cannot share the same flesh, the flesh was the Son’s deal as being the Sacrificial Lamb. God the Father has no flesh from what I understand, and of course, the spirit nature of the Holy Ghost means no body there either. Neither did the Word have a body per se, until, “The Word was made flesh”. However, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

One in spirit and consubstantial with the Father. To argue the point without making sure the concept is understood is about as effective as slamming your head against the wall- it doesn’t prove anything and makes your head hurt.

 

[rmills1]

Jesus is either Lord, Liar or Lunatic.

We know that a lie is a statement that in complete opposition to the truth. And we know that everything good is truthful. Fallacy is bad/evil. It leads to disorder. We know that lies lead to disorder/disordered relationships and thus must be bad/evil. Liars are thus bad/evil as they propagate falsehood. Jesus’ teachings instructs people to improve their relationships with God and others through charity/love. This is an inherently good principle and thus from the previous statements must be a truthful principle. Thus His ministry could not have been a lie.

We know that Lunatics are classified as such because they use fundamentally irrational arguments to propagate their own agendas. In every debate that Jesus’ conducted, He used sound logic/reason to advance His ministry. His sometimes highly respected and educated opponents were always reduced to amazement or silence in response. This is a characteristic of a person in full control of His mind. Thus He could not have been a Lunatic.

Jesus in His ministry, claimed to be God himself and required it of all of his believers. In this argument, Jesus has to be either God or a bad man. We know from his teachings that he always advocated promoting good and truth with others and we know that he was in full control of his mind. In the Gospels, He predicted His own death in detail Bad men do not allow themselves to be put to death for the love of those around them. Good men only do this. But Jesus stated that He is God (in addition to being a good man). So Logic dictates through elimination of the Liar and Lunatic arguments and affirmation of the Lord argument that Jesus is God.

 

[traillius]

Just to play devil’s advocate here - scripture also calls husband and wife ‘one flesh’ yet they are not literally the same as each other. And Jesus prays for His disciples to be one as Jesus and the Father are one - yet Christians can never all literally fuse together to the point of being literally the same as each other.

So your line of argument is not a very convincing one.

I would focus on more tangible proofs of Christ’s claim to divinity - His forgiveness of sin, His claim to be Lord of the Sabbath (surely a prerogative only reserved for God), His claim to preexist Abraham and the like.

Jesus and the Father are uniquely one, in a way no other relationship can match.

 

[Leegal]

I’m wary (and weary) of the label of agenda and perceptions of agendas. Nonetheless, I am also under the impression that Jews for Jesus consists mainly of Messianic Jews who target traditional Jews for conversion. But you may be right regarding who they mainly consist of. The Jews for Judaism movement is a response against Jews for Jesus, in part, but mainly Evangelicals who, they believe, are attempting to convert Jews. However, is this an agenda for all Evangelicals? Certainly not since they are a diverse group. Intermarriage is forbidden by Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism and discouraged although permitted within Reform Judaism. Jewish Law requires a non-Jew who marries a Jew to convert to Judaism and raise their children in the Jewish faith. There is also a social issue involving the comparatively small number of Jews throughout the world, including Jews who only nominally consider themselves such. It is thought that the last thing we need as a people is to decrease our numbers further.

Sorry if I have offended. I only know from the Orthodoxy that they never could find any Jews for Jesus who were ever Jews originally. Well, maybe one. Seriously.

No, I don’t believe we are out to convert Jews and I respect their right to prohibit intermarriage – just as Catholics try and discourage intermarriage. I acknowledge that there’s a social question too and any internarriage would certainly decrease their numbers, which is why I believed (as does the Orthodoxy) that that was the intent of that Jews for Jesus movement. to take Jews out of their faith.

I only wondered. I apologize as no offense was intended. Nor do I advocate for such practices of evangelizing. I realized after posting that I was, in effect, hijacking the OP’s original thread.

Peace.

 

[Telstar]

I’ve tried a couple of times to post a response to the last 5 ‘reasons’, but my browser keeps having a problem with the CAF website, and it crashes. All other sites work fine. I think the problem started after I clicked the link in the first post.

Coincidence?

All I know is that CAF has been fine until now.

 

[jonbhorton]

Sorry if I have offended. I only know from the Orthodoxy that they never could find any Jews for Jesus who were ever Jews originally. Well, maybe one. Seriously.

No, I don’t believe we are out to convert Jews and I respect their right to prohibit intermarriage – just as Catholics try and discourage intermarriage. I acknowledge that there’s a social question too and any internarriage would certainly decrease their numbers, which is why I believed (as does the Orthodoxy) that that was the intent of that Jews for Jesus movement. to take Jews out of their faith.

I only wondered. I apologize as no offense was intended. Nor do I advocate for such practices of evangelizing. I realized after posting that I was, in effect, hijacking the OP’s original thread.

Peace.

So am I to read this as you concede that Jesus is not the Messiah and the Apostles and early Church inappropriately evangelized the Jews?

What, exactly, do you draw this conclusion from?

The Jews will recognize the Messiah, but by continuing to reject Him, they are not recognizing their Salvation.

To believe they can skate by on Rabbinic Judaism is false; to believe they can rebuild the Temple (which they have ready, they just need the word to start construction) and re-institute daily sacrifice and not have it be utterly offensive to God, is false. The final Sacrifice has been made. They can take part in the redemption of the Passover Lamb daily. They just choose not to and instead cling to what is basically a philosophy club at this point. Divided as ever at that.

I love the Jewish people, so don’t get me wrong. But I can’t claim the Truth of Christianity while claiming the legitimacy of Judaism as it is today. It’s invalid and useless. It’s no more definable than Protestantism, and without belief in Jesus, is potentially worse in its ability to confuse and mislead its followers of the various sects.

If the state of Israel ever institutes a foreign legion concept, I’m likely on the next thing smoking to Israel. But under no circumstance can I let my love for the Jewish people get in the way of proclaiming the truth of Christianity.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

So am I to read this as you concede that Jesus is not the Messiah and the Apostles and early Church inappropriately evangelized the Jews?

What, exactly, do you draw this conclusion from?

The Jews will recognize the Messiah, but by continuing to reject Him, they are not recognizing their Salvation.

To believe they can skate by on Rabbinic Judaism is false; to believe they can rebuild the Temple (which they have ready, they just need the word to start construction) and re-institute daily sacrifice and not have it be utterly offensive to God, is false. The final Sacrifice has been made. They can take part in the redemption of the Passover Lamb daily. They just choose not to and instead cling to what is basically a philosophy club at this point. Divided as ever at that.

I love the Jewish people, so don’t get me wrong. But I can’t claim the Truth of Christianity while claiming the legitimacy of Judaism as it is today. It’s invalid and useless. It’s no more definable than Protestantism, and without belief in Jesus, is potentially worse in its ability to confuse and mislead its followers of the various sects.

If the state of Israel ever institutes a foreign legion concept, I’m likely on the next thing smoking to Israel. But under no circumstance can I let my love for the Jewish people get in the way of proclaiming the truth of Christianity.