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LittleSoldier
Guest
And that is probably one reason that it isn’t considered a Catholic bible (from what I have been told).
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KathleenGee
Guest
Now as an example…of understanding Scripture…
Yesterday was the last day of the season of Christmas – the Epiphany…this Sunday, January 8…there are other rites who always have the Epiphany on January 6 or 7. This year we had it end yesterday. Next year it will end on a different day.
Using the Catholic Catechism, the Church views the Magi, the Three Wisemen who came to give homage to Christ in this context.
CCC528. The Epiphany is the manifestation of Jesus as Messiah of Israel, Son of God and Savior of the world. The great feast of Epiphany celebrates the adoration of Jesus by the wise men (magi) from the East, together with his baptism in the Jordan and the wedding feast at Cana in Galilee. In the magi, representatives of the neighboring pagan religions, the Gospel sees the first-fruits of the nations, who welcome the good news of salvation through the Incarnation. The magi’s coming to Jerusalem in order to pay homage to the king of the Jews shows that they seek in Israel, in the messianic light of the star of David, the one who will be king of the nations. Their coming means that pagans can discover Jesus and worship him as Son of God and Savior of the world only by turning toward the Jews and receiving the messianic promise as contained in the Old Testament. (John 4:22, Matthew 2:4-6). The Epiphany shows that “the full number of nations” now takes its "place in the family of the patriarchs.: and acquires Israeliltica dignitas from Pope Leo’s sermon 3 on Epiphany Domini – (are made “worthy of the heritage of Israel”).
Also we record that Jesus was circumcized on the 8th day after his birth, a sign showing him incorporated into Abraham’s descendants, into people of the covenant. It is also a sign of his submission to the Law and his deputation to Israel’s worship, in which he will participate thorugh out his life…this sign prefigures that “circumsion of Christ” which is baptism…CCC527…
Yesterday was the last day of the season of Christmas – the Epiphany…this Sunday, January 8…there are other rites who always have the Epiphany on January 6 or 7. This year we had it end yesterday. Next year it will end on a different day.
Using the Catholic Catechism, the Church views the Magi, the Three Wisemen who came to give homage to Christ in this context.
CCC528. The Epiphany is the manifestation of Jesus as Messiah of Israel, Son of God and Savior of the world. The great feast of Epiphany celebrates the adoration of Jesus by the wise men (magi) from the East, together with his baptism in the Jordan and the wedding feast at Cana in Galilee. In the magi, representatives of the neighboring pagan religions, the Gospel sees the first-fruits of the nations, who welcome the good news of salvation through the Incarnation. The magi’s coming to Jerusalem in order to pay homage to the king of the Jews shows that they seek in Israel, in the messianic light of the star of David, the one who will be king of the nations. Their coming means that pagans can discover Jesus and worship him as Son of God and Savior of the world only by turning toward the Jews and receiving the messianic promise as contained in the Old Testament. (John 4:22, Matthew 2:4-6). The Epiphany shows that “the full number of nations” now takes its "place in the family of the patriarchs.: and acquires Israeliltica dignitas from Pope Leo’s sermon 3 on Epiphany Domini – (are made “worthy of the heritage of Israel”).
Also we record that Jesus was circumcized on the 8th day after his birth, a sign showing him incorporated into Abraham’s descendants, into people of the covenant. It is also a sign of his submission to the Law and his deputation to Israel’s worship, in which he will participate thorugh out his life…this sign prefigures that “circumsion of Christ” which is baptism…CCC527…
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I’m a bit troubled by some of the posts I have read here. They seem to condemn all Muslims. Jesus died for the Muslims, too. I’m sure that what has been written is true of some Muslims; maybe even most Muslims. I’ve debated with Muslims on CAF and I understand how illogical and downright silly some of those debates have been. But I know a Muslim and I think he is a very good man.
Could we please show a bit more respect for people who, just like us, are children of God?
Could we please show a bit more respect for people who, just like us, are children of God?
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Kouyate42
Guest
I think that no-one here is disputing that the gifts offered by Jesus aren’t open to Muslims. But the problem is what many Muslims believe Christianity to be, which is often far from the truth as the article in the OP shows, and indeed can be often hugely and even laughably inaccurate, but also the huge logical inconsistencies Islam shows in discussing Christianity.
Yes, most Muslims are good people. But being a ‘good person’ does not exclude someone from following a false faith or set of beliefs.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I don’t think its a question of “if” good muslims exist. The thinking relates to the percentage ratio of “hate” verse’s in the Koran which are what, about 1 out of 4. And then those who insist on enforcing those verse’s on not only all of unsuspecting Islam, including those who never lived in such an Islamic culture, but everyone else who believes in a new concept called “religious freedom” 
Which is non existant today in most Islamic Countries. Thats the “why” we came to America to begin with. We’re good with religion, we refuse to acknowledge it forced down your throat at gunpoint.
I’m pretty sure Iran would have been one such culture, once upon a time.
Which is non existant today in most Islamic Countries. Thats the “why” we came to America to begin with. We’re good with religion, we refuse to acknowledge it forced down your throat at gunpoint.I’m pretty sure Iran would have been one such culture, once upon a time.
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Kouyate42
Guest
Islam and religious freedom have had an uneasy relationship to say the least. Yes, there are Muslim countries which see a great amount of religious freedoms, and times in Muslim history which see even the likes of Saudi Arabia show great respect for the religions of Judaism and Christianity, but these are often then very quickly followed by persecutions of these two faiths, either in actual killings/exiles or in the forms of punitive rules and taxation.I don’t think its a question of “if” good muslims exist. The thinking relates to the percentage ratio of “hate” verse’s in the Koran which are what, about 1 out of 4. And then those who insist on enforcing those verse’s on not only all of unsuspecting Islam, including those who never lived in such an Islamic culture, but everyone else who believes in a new concept called “religious freedom”
I’m pretty sure Iran would have been one such culture, once upon a time.
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boleyn2010
Guest
I agree with yor point concerning respect for Judaism and Christianity in countries such as Saudi Arabia etc. and the subsequent persecution of both but hasten to point out that the practice of “pious lies”, in short, “deceit”, is part of Islamic tradition and in these instances is used in an attempt to convince those of other faiths of the love and tolerance that Islam demands of it’s followers, thus encouraging the other faith members to submit to Islam. Being unsuccessful Islam then turns to it’s age old tradition of persecution. Furthermore, any of their own who raise objection to the persecutions, or even query the lack of social justice, are given the same fate. Islam has no love in my opinion. Any love or concern truly displayed by Muslims is a result of their culture and not Islam.
As to the ten reasons etc. I relate that a Muslim friend placed with me a book by Ahmed Deedat, someone , my friend claimed, who knew all about all religions and could confound experts of each, quoting chapter and verse from their respective holy books and proving them to be corrupt or contradictory in all cases. An amazing scholar indeed.
This book dealt with the question of Jesus’ Divinity and his place as a prophet compared to Mohammed (way down the pecking order). His first attempt caused me to laugh! His knowlege of Scripture was worse than mine, and that is saying something!
Forget the website and the writer’s obvious lack of knowledge. Comfort yourself that you have the One True Faith and grow it.
Peace be with you.
Francis
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Thank you for using the phrase “many Muslims.” That’s my whole point - it’s not right to condemn the actions of all for the actions of some.
I agree that, at least in the debates with Muslims in which I have participated, logic never seemed to be used by the Muslims. The threads were often almost funny, if it hadn’t been for the fact that the Muslims with which I debated seem to really believe what they were posting (e.g. the first 100 or so visions don’t count so Peter’s vision of the sheet with all the different foods on it should be disregarded, that Catholic/Christian (the two terms seemed to be used interchangeably) saints have not performed as many miracles as Muslim saints, that Catholics/Christians really worship St. Paul because most of the NT is about him - they bordered on the absolutely ridiculous and many times crossed the line.).
I found that debating with Muslims was much easier than debating topics such as abortion, and the death penalty. In my limited experience it seemed to boil down to “We (Muslims) are better than you Catholics/Christians” and that was that. I posted Scripture and it was ignored. I posted what I thought would be slam-dunk posts and what I received as a response had absolutely nothing to do with what I had written.
It’s a shame that I didn’t seem to be able to find logical, intelligent posts because there is much about Islam that I would like to discuss and I never got a chance to ask about Sharia Law or why most women allegedly go to hell. I saw respect for the Muslim debaters disappear, and in myself, too.
The debates ended up being uncharitable on both sides.
I have absolutely no problem with what you’ve stated in this post because you used that phrase “many Muslims.”
Thanks.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I used the word, “Islamicists” at the very beginning…
Unfortunately, when Pride, Power, Greed --whatever form it is – take over the vision of the human person, the first casualty before the human person is Truth…the presence of Christ Himself…
Truth goes out about who we are to each other when pride, power and greed take over.
So it is necessary to understand different people from different cultures and their history, their anthropology…
Each and every person was created in God’s image and each and every person has some thing of the truth in them to enlarge our understanding of God Himself.
The more we come to objectively know the truth about each other, the more we share in how God looks at all people – no favorites, and we are all the same…
Nevertheless, it is to the Jewish people we must learn to find the Messiah, Who saved us from sin in all its forms. We must be grateful for the Jewish people…Jesus was a Jew, the Blessed Mother was a Jew…
When we accept Jesus, then we share in the heritage of the Jews,…and become part of the New Israel, the New Jerusalem – Christ’s kingdom on earth, His Church.
Unfortunately, when Pride, Power, Greed --whatever form it is – take over the vision of the human person, the first casualty before the human person is Truth…the presence of Christ Himself…
Truth goes out about who we are to each other when pride, power and greed take over.
So it is necessary to understand different people from different cultures and their history, their anthropology…
Each and every person was created in God’s image and each and every person has some thing of the truth in them to enlarge our understanding of God Himself.
The more we come to objectively know the truth about each other, the more we share in how God looks at all people – no favorites, and we are all the same…
Nevertheless, it is to the Jewish people we must learn to find the Messiah, Who saved us from sin in all its forms. We must be grateful for the Jewish people…Jesus was a Jew, the Blessed Mother was a Jew…
When we accept Jesus, then we share in the heritage of the Jews,…and become part of the New Israel, the New Jerusalem – Christ’s kingdom on earth, His Church.
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Kouyate42
Guest
Being a history and also social studies major, it would be semi-impossible for me to ignore the historical and social impact Islam has had and has.
Major pronlem is that the image of Islam presented to non-Muslims and the reality is very different, sometimes dangerously so. Converts to Islam have left for this reason.
As to Muslim understanding of Christianity/Jewish traditions, they’re seriously skewed. Many Islamic scholars hold the Qur’an to automatically be the correct scripture and anything which contradicts that from Torah/Bible/any other scripture, including Holy Traditions, are automatically considered ‘corrupt’. No attempt is made to discern what the correct interpretation is from evidence or basic reasoning, and the only justification they give for such a decision is ‘well the Muslim faith is the true one’.
You then get the huge amounts of circular reasoning where they prove their holy book by Muhammad and then Muhammad by citing Qur’an verses. And so on and so forth with any issue they care to mention.
And yes, they have traditions, in the form of hadith, but the less said, the better. Aside from the fact of their being hugely contradictory, there’s also issues of the chains of people they were transmitted through (these chains are isnads, and different scholars and schools of Islam can’t even agree on which isnads are not ‘corrupt’ as some are deemed to be). Plus, unlike Catholicism which can at least claim an unbroken chain of tradition from Peter himself to now, the hadith were not even collected until the 10th century, some 300 years AFTER the death of the person who spoke them.
Such articles make me glad to be a Christian.
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Kouyate42
Guest
I’ve lived with and around Muslims for years. Some of my friends are Muslim. Many are peaceful and want to get on with their lives with no imposition of Islam on others.
My last post mentioned this, but I’ll say it again: Muslim understanding of the Bible and of Torah is completely skewed, sometimes to the point of ridicule. The Muslim belief is that the Qur’an is perfect, handed down by God in its exact modern format and that previous revelations, although these are somewhat legitimate revelations, these were corrupted by Christians and Jews for their own purposes, and should be discarded.
This leads to the assumption in Muslim debates that the Qur’anic take on any one particular parable or subject is correct without any rational consideration of the evidence for and against this.
I posted a thread asking Muslims on CAF how the New Testament, often cited in Qur’anic commentary as ‘proof’ of the Qur’an’s supposed validity, when the Muslim belief is that the New Testament of today and the Injil (Gospels) of the Qur’an are DIFFERENT. The whole thing descended into some idiotic argument and not one person actually answered the question.
Any discussion of Islam I’ve seen turns into a huge argument by Muslims who will not listen to evidence. I have grown tired of dealing with this and avoid debates.
Thanks.
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jerry_joseph
Guest
Also, in quran the trinity that opposes is not christian trinity… Here Porphet mohammed mis understood the christian trinity as Father, Son (Jesus) and Mother (Mary).
Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are. (Qur’an 5:72 ).
When God says, ‘Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people, “Take me and my mother as two gods alongside God”?’ he will say, 'May You be exalted! I would never say what I had no right to say—if I had said such a thing You would have known it: You know all that is within me, though I do not know what is within You, You alone have full knowledge of things unseen (Qur’an5:116 ).
So it is clear that what trinity Muslims opposes is not Christian trinity. It is only a false trinity, which Mohammed misunderstood the faith of christians. He thought that christian trinity consist of God , Jesus and mary. It is originated from improper knowledge of Christianity. What christian trinity is Father , Son (Jesus) and Holy spirit. No christians in this world considers mary as part of trinity.
Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are. (Qur’an 5:72 ).
When God says, ‘Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to people, “Take me and my mother as two gods alongside God”?’ he will say, 'May You be exalted! I would never say what I had no right to say—if I had said such a thing You would have known it: You know all that is within me, though I do not know what is within You, You alone have full knowledge of things unseen (Qur’an5:116 ).
So it is clear that what trinity Muslims opposes is not Christian trinity. It is only a false trinity, which Mohammed misunderstood the faith of christians. He thought that christian trinity consist of God , Jesus and mary. It is originated from improper knowledge of Christianity. What christian trinity is Father , Son (Jesus) and Holy spirit. No christians in this world considers mary as part of trinity.
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PhilAligieri
Guest
laughable,muslims don´t see mary as part of the trinity.the quran points out that many christians take her as a godess beside god.
this verse doesn´t tell anything about the trinity,nor does it mention anything relating to that belief.
adressing prayers to mary,and bowing to statues of her is idol worship in the muslim eye,and the worst sin for them…
as is applying divinity to jesus.
seriously,christ´s divinity/the doctrine of the trinity should be much clearer in the gospels if the acceptance of such things is a matter of heaven and hell
islam will get bigger and bigger because the doctrine of the trinity makes no sense at all and contradicts itself…most conversions happen because people reject this dogma.
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Trebor135
Guest
In that case the Qur’an is committing slander–a grave sin which God strongly disapproves of.
But the ayat begins, “Those people who say that God is the third of three…” Who could the Qur’an possibly be talking about other than Christians?
These Muslims are employing an incorrect definition of idolatry, whether they know it or not. In their zeal to smear the Christian faith, they fail to understand that asking for St. Mary’s intercession and bowing before a statue do not involve making a human or a work of art into a replacement for God.
Jesus was God in the flesh. Worshipping him is not idolatry.
These things are fairly clear in the Bible, though sometimes they are pointed to in a subtle manner for those living in the twenty-first century outside a Palestinian Jewish context. Some people simply refuse to look at the evidence.seriously,christ´s divinity/the doctrine of the trinity should be much clearer in the gospels if the acceptance of such things is a matter of heaven and hell
Also, the beliefs came before the writing of Scripture. The Bible was not the source from which these doctrines were derived. If all copies of the New Testament vanished from the face of the earth, Christians would still accept the trinity and the divinity of Christ.
No, it doesn’t.
This doesn’t prove that the trinity is illogical. It shows that some people were unwilling or unable to do their homework.
Do you have any statistics from an unbiased source showing that millions of Christians are converting to Islam because they find the trinity impossible to accept? I’ve seen particular stories of Westerners in this situation. But I seem to recall reading that Christianity has grown by leaps and bounds during the past century in Nigeria, while Islam has remained stable there.
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CopticChristian
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jakasaki
Guest
If you read the beginning of the thread, the mod had to delete the link from the thread due to spam, virus & locking up PC’s & Servers.
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couponfit
Guest
The Qu’ran disputes christ’s divinity specifically and directly.
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