10 things things I've "learned" at CAF

[Syele]

I know that this post might sound somewhat hostile and or negative. I really don’t feel hostile. I just feel … sad when I reflect on some of these things. I decided to list them out here as a FYI. Maybe some of you don’t realize how you appear to a non-catholic reading your posts. Some of you never reflect these negative things, but they are common enough that they come to mind when I think of Catholics now.

1. I’ve learned that there lies a deep resentment and hatred of protestants (not just protestantism) in a large number of Catholics. Even though a huge number of protestants know nothing about Catholics in order to even know if they disagree with Catholicism. Some are outspoken about their anger at us all and others use more sporadic snarky sarcasm thrown in at random.
2. I learned that I am not as charitable as I used to be, and I’m sorry for anyone I offend(ed). I am trying to learn to be bold but not rude. It can be a fine line at times.
3. I learned that for some odd reason many Catholics like recited prayers unless a protestant does it… then its a (insert dramatic voice here) “magic formula.”
4. I’ve learned that this forum is usually not approached as though it is aimed at converting people to Catholicism but instead to create some sort of “points” against non-Catholics (of all types, not only protestants). “Protestants raise their arms towards the ceiling while singing! AH HA they worship the ceiling!” SCORE C -1 P-0!
5. I’ve learned that Catholics have some sort of weird love-hate relationship with the word Roman. Several have tried to explain it, but the answers all contradict, so I have decided to give up understanding it and just use the word when I feel the need. You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time!
6. I’ve learned that the things that bothered me about Catholics before still bother me, even after thorough explanations by Catholics, but now I understand they are all inter-related and not several separate issues. And no, I don’t wanna list them all again right atm. (Maybe another day when I have thought out how to phrase it in a good way that will make sense)
7. I’ve learned that few Catholics really know much at all about Protestants, though most think they do, also the ex-protestants think they know the most and are sometimes the most hostile and/or wrong. (this applies vice versa as well)
8. I have learned that a whole lot of Catholics believe there are hundreds of thousands of Protestant denominations and each denomination believes totally different things, (though no one can list them) AND all of them also miraculously believe all the same things… including sola scriptura, OSAS and probably some horrible thing about Mary . How we can manage such a contradiction is a great Mystery to me (besides that I don’t believe that stuff).
9. I have learned that Protestant bashing is very often treated as OK (though some do admit to it being rude), its seen as just and fair retaliation for the Reformation and all the things Luther did.
10. I have learned all about the Catholic views on Mary, Birth Control, womens head coverings, Justification, the Magisterium, purgatory, and others too. I have learned to better defend my own faith by discussing these things. Its my hope that people who talk with me learn to defend their faith better as well, and that is why I support this forum.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Are we learning that Syele paints with a giganticly broad brush?
And who told you simply reciting a known prayer is a “magic formula”? “Many Catholics” told you this??

This one is worth some references too:
“I have learned that Protestant bashing is…OK…its seen as just and fair retaliation for the Reformation”

 

[YADA]

1. I have learned that a whole lot of Catholics believe there are hundreds of thousands of Protestant denominations and each denomination believes totally different things, (though no one can list them) AND all of them also miraculously believe all the same things… including sola scriptura, OSAS and probably some horrible thing about Mary . How we can manage such a contradiction is a great Mystery to me (besides that I don’t believe that stuff).

But perhaps you do understand in some way the ‘variety’ of beliefs in the protestant movement with the ‘similarities’ even if it remains a mystery … read here a post you made from one of your own threads

I’m with you on that point, I was just trying to understand thier justification of the position. Being as how my own ‘denomination’ is not present locally, AoG is the closest to it so I have been attending there. I’m finding that “close” is still far away.

I am sorry you are feeling as you are …

 

[Howard_Roark]

All I can say is, get used to it.

The Catholic Church is going through a period of restoration, and that means turmoil. Liberalism is going out, and with it, a lot of the dishonest warm fuzzies about how we’re all “the same”.

Orthodoxy is in, and that means honestly owning up to the differences between Porotestants and Catholics, and honestly owning up to the fact that Protestantism, being a schismatic offshoot of Catholicism - is either very right, or very wrong and therefore has led millions into Hell. It’s one or the other.

It also means that Catholics are waking up to the fact that living within a Protestant nation and Protestant culture has cost them their heritage and faith, in many cases. Birth control, divorce, abortion…these things were pushed in upon the catholic ommunity form the outside…in the case of the USA, by the more permissive Protestant culture-at-large. Catholics are waking up to the fact that, as they say in the deep South - “if you lie down with dogs, yer gonna get fleas.”

I think things are going to get harsher from here. I do not think this is necessarily a bad thing. I think Protestants are going to have to wake up to the reality of their position - they are the spiritual great-grandchildren of the men who claimed the Pope is Satan on Earth and who killed the priests and nuns and burned down the monasteries. Just 50 years ago, the Klan was killing Catholics in the South.

this waking up to what these faiths really mean is necessary and important. If you wake up to what your faith really stands for, and you don’t like it, have some courage and find the right one.

 

[Jimdandy]

As a member of the Body of Christ, I am sorry, your assessment of some of the attitudes here has too often been found to be true.

Not all Catholics are argumentative and arrogant-
Many Catholics were taught to obey without questioning-ever-
Many, many more were poorly catechized-

all which contributes to poorly formed consciences-

But Jesus loves us in our imperfections and teaches us to do the same.

Peace be to you.

 

[John_Higgins]

And I have learned that there are far too many people on this board who believe like this
Howard Roark:

Protestantism, being a schismatic offshoot of Catholicism - is either very right, or very wrong and therefore has led millions into Hell.

People who were raised as Protestants (I prefer other Christians) don’t go to hell just 'cause they’re Protestant. When we get to heaven, I feel confident that we can shake hands with Billy Graham among others.

John

 

[Howard_Roark]

again, thanks to roguejim for collecting these. Contra hippies:

“That we can have at least good hope for the salvation of all those who have never been in the true Church of Christ is hereby condemned as error.”
VEN. POPE PIUS IX

It was to the Apostolic College alone, of which Peter is the head, that Our Lord entrusted the one Body of Christ into which all those who belong in any way must be fully incorporated."
II VATICAN COUNCIL

“The Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church is the only true Church of Jesus Christ. It is error to believe that men can find the path of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation in the practice of any religion whatsoever. It is error to believe that Protestantism is nothing other than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is permitted to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.”
VEN POPE PIUS IX

 

[Syele]

Are we learning that Syele paints with a giganticly broad brush?
And who told you simply reciting a known prayer is a “magic formula”? “Many Catholics” told you this??

This one is worth some references too:
“I have learned that Protestant bashing is…OK…its seen as just and fair retaliation for the Reformation”

I did qualify it that it was alot and that there are also many who do none of those things. I said them from memory… but I can find quotes for you easily enough.

the magic formulas… read righetousones posts in this thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=210146&page=2

The Sinners Prayer was literally treated as a magic formula that made all sins okay.

They say a few quick catch phrases and if the sinner (or Catholic) gets snagged, they pass them off to the “pitch man”. This “pitch man” reads some verses and tries to get you to say the magic words.

  			Originally Posted by **Ted in Charlott** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3812165#post3812165) 				
  		*I DO NOT think it would be because someone prayed some "cute little incantation" called a sinner's prayer. *

oops that one said incantation and not magic… you get the idea though.
The whole “now you know how it feels” attitude is one I see frequently… saw it yesterday but forgot what thread… Ill post it when I see it again.

 

[Syele]

All I can say is, get used to it.

I am used to it. I posted for those who might care how they come across.

The Catholic Church is going through a period of restoration, and that means turmoil. Liberalism is going out, and with it, a lot of the dishonest warm fuzzies about how we’re all “the same”.

I do not ask for warm fuzzies. However, Your Church, as well as mine teach us to love others and be charitable. Not to Lie and also not to hate.

Orthodoxy is in, and that means honestly owning up to the differences between Porotestants and Catholics, and honestly owning up to the fact that Protestantism, being a schismatic offshoot of Catholicism - is either very right, or very wrong and therefore has led millions into Hell. It’s one or the other.

Saying something is wrong should not require anyone to lie, be hateful, or revel in the hellboundness of another.

It also means that Catholics are waking up to the fact that living within a Protestant nation and Protestant culture has cost them their heritage and faith, in many cases. Birth control, divorce, abortion…these things were pushed in upon the catholic ommunity form the outside…in the case of the USA, by the more permissive Protestant culture-at-large. Catholics are waking up to the fact that, as they say in the deep South - “if you lie down with dogs, yer gonna get fleas.”

I find it odd you attribute all these things to Protestantism and not many of the other things in our society that push them. I do not believe Birth control, divorce, or abortion are ok.

I think things are going to get harsher from here. I do not think this is necessarily a bad thing. I think Protestants are going to have to wake up to the reality of their position - they are the spiritual great-grandchildren of the men who claimed the Pope is Satan on Earth and who killed the priests and nuns and burned down the monasteries. Just 50 years ago, the Klan was killing Catholics in the South.

Treating people who are kind to you with rudeness disdain and hatred is not going to make them wake up to anything. Did the Klan make you want to join them by persecuting you? I don’t think so.

this waking up to what these faiths really mean is necessary and important. If you wake up to what your faith really stands for, and you don’t like it, have some courage and find the right one.

But do you REALLY know what my faith stands for? DO you even really know what it is?

 

[motoeric]

Thank you for taking the time to provide your assessment of the site and of Catholic dialog with and about non-Catholics.

I’m sure that many people are going to chime in and debate your assertions but I believe that taking such a tack undermines the service that you provide. Regardless of the veracity of your claims, you are offering how we are perceived by, at the least, you.

Knowing how you are coming across to the person you most want to sway is incredibly important and I appreciate your feedback. I have had an almost mirror image experience on a non-Catholic forum and I may follow your lead and try to be as kind as possible while detailing how comments and behavior is perceived by someone outside the norm for that group.

I assume that you have learned significantly more than the 10 points that you listed; but we should be reminded often that when you lose civility you often lose the argument.

Eric

 

[Gara3987]

All I can say is, get used to it.

The Catholic Church is going through a period of restoration, and that means turmoil. Liberalism is going out, and with it, a lot of the dishonest warm fuzzies about how we’re all “the same”.

Orthodoxy is in, and that means honestly owning up to the differences between Porotestants and Catholics, and honestly owning up to the fact that Protestantism, being a schismatic offshoot of Catholicism - is either very right, or very wrong and therefore has led millions into Hell. It’s one or the other.

It also means that Catholics are waking up to the fact that living within a Protestant nation and Protestant culture has cost them their heritage and faith, in many cases. Birth control, divorce, abortion…these things were pushed in upon the catholic ommunity form the outside…in the case of the USA, by the more permissive Protestant culture-at-large. Catholics are waking up to the fact that, as they say in the deep South - “if you lie down with dogs, yer gonna get fleas.”

I think things are going to get harsher from here. I do not think this is necessarily a bad thing. I think Protestants are going to have to wake up to the reality of their position - they are the spiritual great-grandchildren of the men who claimed the Pope is Satan on Earth and who killed the priests and nuns and burned down the monasteries. Just 50 years ago, the Klan was killing Catholics in the South.

this waking up to what these faiths really mean is necessary and important. If you wake up to what your faith really stands for, and you don’t like it, have some courage and find the right one.

You bring up many excellent points (Actually all the points you have brought up are true), Kudos.

I would have to say though the “Protestant reformation” would be more correctly described as the “Protestant revolt” for in reality that is what it really was; a revolt against the Catholic Church.

 

[Syele]

Thank you for taking the time to provide your assessment of the site and of Catholic dialog with and about non-Catholics.

I’m sure that many people are going to chime in and debate your assertions but I believe that taking such a tack undermines the service that you provide. Regardless of the veracity of your claims, you are offering how we are perceived by, at the least, you.

Knowing how you are coming across to the person you most want to sway is incredibly important and I appreciate your feedback. I have had an almost mirror image experience on a non-Catholic forum and I may follow your lead and try to be as kind as possible while detailing how comments and behavior is perceived by someone outside the norm for that group.

I assume that you have learned significantly more than the 10 points that you listed; but we should be reminded often that when you lose civility you often lose the argument.

Eric

Thanks for understanding the point of my post Eric. I encourage you to do the same in your other forum. Even if many people don’t believe it, or don’t care, some will take it to heart. And yeah I learned more than 10 things, but these were ten I wanted to share.

Aslo, to MarcoPolo,

Please don’t take it to mean I think CAF or Catholics are horrible or whatever. I like CAF and am happy posting here. I make a small monthly donation and recommend it to others because I think its a good place overall, the things I listed are my thoughts on things I encountered here. I didn’t go around listing all the threads where each was said and counting them up. It wasn’t a bean counting finger pointing thing. It was this is how I feel, this is what I see, take it or leave it.

 

[Dale_M]

Hi Syele, I usually avoid this Non-Catholic Religion forum, because of the meanness of spirit in many of the posts. But I happened to see the title of your thread on the main board, and figured I would check out what you had to say.

I’ve learned that there lies a deep resentment and hatred of protestants (not just protestantism) in a large number of Catholics.

I’m not convinced that large numbers of Catholics feel this way. I think the people who post here at CAF are unrepresentative of the majority of Catholics. CAF posters, by and large, are much more conservative and dogmatic than most Catholics I know. And the CAF members who decide to post here in Non-Catholic Religions are an even narrower group. It seems many want engage in apologetics, and do so in an uncharitable manner.

I have learned that Protestant bashing is very often treated as OK (though some do admit to it being rude)

Yes, the tenor of this particular forum forced me to abandon it after a short stay. Many of the posts violate the spirit of hospitality, which I see as fundamentally un-Christian.

 

[Syele]

Hi Syele, I usually avoid this Non-Catholic Religion forum, because of the meanness of spirit in many of the posts. But I happened to see the title of your thread on the main board, and figured I would check out what you had to say.
I’m not convinced that large numbers of Catholics feel this way. I think the people who post here at CAF are unrepresentative of the majority of Catholics. CAF posters, by and large, are much more conservative and dogmatic than most Catholics I know. And the CAF members who decide to post here in Non-Catholic Religions are an even narrower group. It seems many want engage in apologetics, and do so in an uncharitable manner.

Yes, the tenor of this particular forum forced me to abandon it after a short stay. Many of the posts violate the spirit of hospitality, which I see as fundamentally un-Christian.

Thank you Dale. I think you are right, I made a mistake. I’m sorry. It is not Catholics in general but those I have been speaking with here. People over in Parenting forums are very nice to me even though most of them know I am not Catholic.

 

[mozart-250]

again, thanks to roguejim for collecting these. Contra hippies:

“That we can have at least good hope for the salvation of all those who have never been in the true Church of Christ is hereby condemned as error.”
VEN. POPE PIUS IX

It was to the Apostolic College alone, of which Peter is the head, that Our Lord entrusted the one Body of Christ into which all those who belong in any way must be fully incorporated."
II VATICAN COUNCIL

“The Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church is the only true Church of Jesus Christ. It is error to believe that men can find the path of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation in the practice of any religion whatsoever. It is error to believe that Protestantism is nothing other than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is permitted to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.”
VEN POPE PIUS IX

I have learned that Catholics believe that disagreement amongst the Protestants concerning what the Bible teaches proves that they are false. Meanwhile they disagree amongst themselves about what their denomination teaches…

 

[a_priori]

All I can say is, get used to it.

:yawn:

 

[ralphinal]

I know that this post might sound somewhat hostile and or negative. I really don’t feel hostile. I just feel … sad when I reflect on some of these things. I decided to list them out here as a FYI. Maybe some of you don’t realize how you appear to a non-catholic reading your posts. Some of you never reflect these negative things, but they are common enough that they come to mind when I think of Catholics now.

1. I’ve learned that there lies a deep resentment and hatred of protestants (not just protestantism) in a large number of Catholics. Even though a huge number of protestants know nothing about Catholics in order to even know if they disagree with Catholicism. Some are outspoken about their anger at us all and others use more sporadic snarky sarcasm thrown in at random.

I was shocked when I learned this. I did not know that there were fellow Catholics who would not have Protestants as friends.

1. I learned that I am not as charitable as I used to be, and I’m sorry for anyone I offend(ed). I am trying to learn to be bold but not rude. It can be a fine line at times.

This seems to be common for posters on here. You are not the only one.

1. I learned that for some odd reason many Catholics like recited prayers unless a protestant does it… then its a (insert dramatic voice here) “magic formula.”

No comment. That is a unique opinion.

1. I’ve learned that this forum is usually not approached as though it is aimed at converting people to Catholicism but instead to create some sort of “points” against non-Catholics (of all types, not only protestants). “Protestants raise their arms towards the ceiling while singing! AH HA they worship the ceiling!” SCORE C -1 P-0!

I thought that this forum was ot discuss other faiths. I think that you are right. There are those who try to keep score.

1. I’ve learned that Catholics have some sort of weird love-hate relationship with the word Roman. Several have tried to explain it, but the answers all contradict, so I have decided to give up understanding it and just use the word when I feel the need. You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time!

Amen

1. I’ve learned that the things that bothered me about Catholics before still bother me, even after thorough explanations by Catholics, but now I understand they are all inter-related and not several separate issues. And no, I don’t wanna list them all again right atm. (Maybe another day when I have thought out how to phrase it in a good way that will make sense)

You can always pm me if you don;t want to create the thread.

1. I’ve learned that few Catholics really know much at all about Protestants, though most think they do, also the ex-protestants think they know the most and are sometimes the most hostile and/or wrong. (this applies vice versa as well)

I think that part of the problem is that there is no such thing as unified Protestant teaching, and in some denominations there is no such thing as unified teaching. It is hard for people not to generalize. I agree 100% about the hostility.

1. I have learned that a whole lot of Catholics believe there are hundreds of thousands of Protestant denominations and each denomination believes totally different things, (though no one can list them) AND all of them also miraculously believe all the same things… including sola scriptura, OSAS and probably some horrible thing about Mary . How we can manage such a contradiction is a great Mystery to me (besides that I don’t believe that stuff).

I have issues with the 30,000+ number, too.

1. I have learned that Protestant bashing is very often treated as OK (though some do admit to it being rude), its seen as just and fair retaliation for the Reformation and all the things Luther did.

I do not think it is ok. I do think that there are some who need ot be bashed (Westboro Baptist).

1. I have learned all about the Catholic views on Mary, Birth Control, womens head coverings, Justification, the Magisterium, purgatory, and others too. I have learned to better defend my own faith by discussing these things. Its my hope that people who talk with me learn to defend their faith better as well, and that is why I support this forum.

Good. I am glad that it has helped.

I have enjoyed discussing things with you.

God bless you.

 

[Sepharad]

I know that this post might sound somewhat hostile and or negative. I really don’t feel hostile. I just feel … sad when I reflect on some of these things. I decided to list them out here as a FYI. Maybe some of you don’t realize how you appear to a non-catholic reading your posts. Some of you never reflect these negative things, but they are common enough that they come to mind when I think of Catholics now.

1. I’ve learned that there lies a deep resentment and hatred of protestants (not just protestantism) in a large number of Catholics. Even though a huge number of protestants know nothing about Catholics in order to even know if they disagree with Catholicism. Some are outspoken about their anger at us all and others use more sporadic snarky sarcasm thrown in at random.
2. I learned that I am not as charitable as I used to be, and I’m sorry for anyone I offend(ed). I am trying to learn to be bold but not rude. It can be a fine line at times.
3. I learned that for some odd reason many Catholics like recited prayers unless a protestant does it… then its a (insert dramatic voice here) “magic formula.”
4. I’ve learned that this forum is usually not approached as though it is aimed at converting people to Catholicism but instead to create some sort of “points” against non-Catholics (of all types, not only protestants). “Protestants raise their arms towards the ceiling while singing! AH HA they worship the ceiling!” SCORE C -1 P-0!

(cut for brevity in replying)

Great comments. Much of what you said spoke for me as well, and I’m a non-Christian/non-Catholic.

In fairness to the Catholics here however, I have to say that I have spent some time as well, trying to figure out why so many are so hostile, argumentative and defensive about their faith. I suspect it is because they are so used to having their religion bashed by anti-Catholic fundamentalists, and so they react this way. They probably react to Protestants the same way in return, and feel they always need to “defend” what they believe.

I think this forum is not emotionally or spiritually healthy all the time, for both Catholics and non-catholics…because it has made some of us say and do things we normally would not, due to constantly being harangued for not ‘seeing the light’, or b eing falsely accused of being “anti-Catholic” when IRL it really is not true.

I have seen similar argumentative situations on forums where evangelicals debate as well, but for some reason they don’t get AS hostile. I don’t know why Catholics are more hostile, but I truly think it has a lot to do with the long history of Protestant anti-Catholicism in the USA (most posters seem to be from the USA), and the Catholic feeling that they are always being targeted by missionaries.

This is why I truthfully felt so sure that the Catholics here would understand how it feels to be always singled out for conversion…because they too have been the victims of it. Yet they never make the connection.

In real life, I have many close Catholic friends, both in pro-life work and outside of it. And, like me, they have expressed frustration with JW and other missionaries who just refuse to accept that they have their own religion in which they are happy. We have that common bond…we have both had to deal with persistant missionaries who refuse to take no for an answer!

Not so on this forum. Here, the Catholics are SO different from the ones I know IRL, and for the first time, I think I understand how medieval Jews must have felt when Catholics were always trying to convert them, by persuasion (though later, by force, but that is for another topic.)

But, I have learned something very important in my time here. I used to think that evangelicals were to be avoided and not trusted, since they were always trying to convert Jews to belief in Jesus and away from Judaism. And so most of my non-Jewish friendships had been with Catholics, since they never tried to convert me.

But now, I see that there are indeed proselytizing Catholics out there, based on what I read on these forums, and the questions some ask about how to convert this or that Jewish friend.

So now I know better, and know that while most Catholics are still probably trustworthy as sincere friends, there will be a minority seeking to take me away from my faith.

I think this new Pope has something to do with it too; he is much more conservative, and while I do like some of his beliefs (restoring full use of the Tridentine Latin Mass, which is very beautiful), his theology may be more conservative too, esp. in regard to the Jews. The Jewish community is just now waking up to the fact that this church may indeed become, as far as my people is concerned, the way they were before Vatican II. Which is not so good for us.

Forewarned is forearmed, so my time here has helped me learn that, which is something I did not know before!

 

[ibkc]

I have seen similar argumentative situations on forums where evangelicals debate as well, but for some reason they don’t get AS hostile. I don’t know why Catholics are more hostile, but I truly think it has a lot to do with the long history of Protestant anti-Catholicism in the USA (most posters seem to be from the USA), and the Catholic feeling that they are always being targeted by missionaries.

I am a veteran of many years of participating in religious debate forums, only recently as a Catholic, and this has not been my experience at all. In my experience, some of the most irrational and vicious Christians are once-saved-always-saved evangelicals. Whether on Beliefnet, CARM, Usenet, Free Republic or wherever, many of these folks feel like they have the license to do or say whatever they want because they are “saved.” And they will tell you that.

In contrast to the above forums, CAF’s debate forum is really very mild and mostly respectful. When someone gets out of line, it is noticeable.

 

[Sepharad]

I am a veteran of many years of participating in religious debate forums, only recently as a Catholic, and this has not been my experience at all. In my experience, some of the most irrational and vicious Christians are once-saved-always-saved evangelicals. Whether on Beliefnet, CARM, Usenet, Free Republic or wherever, many of these folks feel like they have the license to do or say whatever they want because they are “saved.” And they will tell you that.

In contrast to the above forums, CAF’s debate forum is really very mild and mostly respectful. When someone gets out of line, it is noticeable.

Back in the 1990s, alt.messianic was pretty nasty, I recall! So was the JFJ forum. I’ve spent most of my time on the forums that seek to convert Jews to a form of evangelicalism, this is actually my first experience on a Catholic forum, but there does seem to be some pretty nasty stuff here as well.

Actually, until I found this site accidentally, while doing a Google search on certain Catholic-based legends about Holy Week, I had no ideas there were any Catholic apologetical debate forums.

As a countermissionary, I tended to debate only with those actively seeking to convert Jews to Evangelical Christianity, and although I did have some limited experience in the 1970s with a tiny group of Catholics of Jewish origin who sought to convert Jews, I felt that kind of thing was very limited and of little consequence…until I found it on this forum.