10 things things I've "learned" at CAF

[Howard_Roark]

Hisalone wrote:
*
Your “circle the wagons” does define some of the dynamics but not all. You blame Protestantism for the decline in society rather than secular humanism thus painting Protestants as the enemy. Interesting indeed.*

I also blame the secular humanism on Protestantism.

 

[mark_a]

I know that this post might sound somewhat hostile and or negative. I really don’t feel hostile. I just feel … sad when I reflect on some of these things. I decided to list them out here as a FYI. Maybe some of you don’t realize how you appear to a non-catholic reading your posts. Some of you never reflect these negative things, but they are common enough that they come to mind when I think of Catholics now.

1. I’ve learned that there lies a deep resentment and hatred of protestants (not just protestantism) in a large number of Catholics. Even though a huge number of protestants know nothing about Catholics in order to even know if they disagree with Catholicism. Some are outspoken about their anger at us all and others use more sporadic snarky sarcasm thrown in at random.
2. I learned that I am not as charitable as I used to be, and I’m sorry for anyone I offend(ed). I am trying to learn to be bold but not rude. It can be a fine line at times.
3. I learned that for some odd reason many Catholics like recited prayers unless a protestant does it… then its a (insert dramatic voice here) “magic formula.”
4. I’ve learned that this forum is usually not approached as though it is aimed at converting people to Catholicism but instead to create some sort of “points” against non-Catholics (of all types, not only protestants). “Protestants raise their arms towards the ceiling while singing! AH HA they worship the ceiling!” SCORE C -1 P-0!
5. I’ve learned that Catholics have some sort of weird love-hate relationship with the word Roman. Several have tried to explain it, but the answers all contradict, so I have decided to give up understanding it and just use the word when I feel the need. You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time!
6. I’ve learned that the things that bothered me about Catholics before still bother me, even after thorough explanations by Catholics, but now I understand they are all inter-related and not several separate issues. And no, I don’t wanna list them all again right atm. (Maybe another day when I have thought out how to phrase it in a good way that will make sense)
7. I’ve learned that few Catholics really know much at all about Protestants, though most think they do, also the ex-protestants think they know the most and are sometimes the most hostile and/or wrong. (this applies vice versa as well)
8. I have learned that a whole lot of Catholics believe there are hundreds of thousands of Protestant denominations and each denomination believes totally different things, (though no one can list them) AND all of them also miraculously believe all the same things… including sola scriptura, OSAS and probably some horrible thing about Mary . How we can manage such a contradiction is a great Mystery to me (besides that I don’t believe that stuff).
9. I have learned that Protestant bashing is very often treated as OK (though some do admit to it being rude), its seen as just and fair retaliation for the Reformation and all the things Luther did.
10. I have learned all about the Catholic views on Mary, Birth Control, womens head coverings, Justification, the Magisterium, purgatory, and others too. I have learned to better defend my own faith by discussing these things. Its my hope that people who talk with me learn to defend their faith better as well, and that is why I support this forum.

I hope you don’t think that the way a person presents himself on these forums is an acurate portrayal of the complete person.

I’m a pretty nice guy. You can ask my @#$%?! Protestant neighbors.

 

[Hisalone]

Hisalone wrote:
*
Your “circle the wagons” does define some of the dynamics but not all. You blame Protestantism for the decline in society rather than secular humanism thus painting Protestants as the enemy. Interesting indeed.*

I also blame the secular humanism on Protestantism.

LOL

I no longer can take you seriously.

 

[jmcrae]

1. I learned that for some odd reason many Catholics like recited prayers unless a protestant does it… then its a (insert dramatic voice here) “magic formula.”

This comment is usually a reference to the fact that so many Protestants so often claim that Catholics are EEEEEEEE-VILLE for having things like the Rosary, the Mass, the Our Father, and so on - that is to say, memorized prayers.

We’re often accused of witchcraft, and worse, for allowing people to pray these prayers in Church.

And then Protestants come up with these little off-the-cuff memorized prayers that are not even found in the Bible (hey, at least the Mass, the Rosary, etc., are all in the Bible, at least!) and claim that “you can’t be saved” without reciting these prayers?

So I think they’re using the term “incantation” in an ironic manner, as if to say, “So, the Rosary is bad and could lead someone to witchcraft or worse, because it’s a memorized Bible prayer - but this is okay - because … ?”

 

[Zooey]

I couldn’t comment on all 10 things, so I chose a few to comment on:

First of all, thank you for these comments.

To be fair to some of those people, many of them have had quite some hard time in the hands of rabid Anti-Catholics who will usually not listen to reason and insist that we Catholics are going to Hell due to this or that.

These then subconsciously think ‘Protestant=Anti-Catholic’ because of the negative experience and get (sadly) all rude and hateful to any Non-Catholic they meet, even to a more cultured poster who has a more open mind and does not have any Anti-Catholic sentiments. Unfortunately, this just turns them into clones of the people they are trying to ‘fight’ with.

If any wrong is committed, then the apology is accepted. Don’t worry; you’re not the only one.

That is because many people have different interpretations of the word ‘Roman’.

Some choose it for convenience and familiarity, or because they are a part of the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, while others disdain the label due to its origins as an Anti-Catholic canard, or because they are not part of the Roman Rite, but are part of the Eastern or Oriental Churches.

To sum up, IMHO it is better to use the word ‘Roman’ when referring to the Roman Rite Church, and ‘Catholic’ when referring to the Church in general.

IMHO, Some of the main faults that many Catholic posters (myself included ) have here is:

-Some tend to confuse the practices and beliefs of one church with another (even if they are on the same Denomination)

-Use of the word ‘Protestant’ as a blanket term, which can lead to confusion at times and might lead to misunderstanding

-Many usually get their knowledge of Protestantism from a specific source which might not even be the beliefs of the denomination that the author of the source belongs to (it might even be an author’s personal belief and thus is not representative of his group) and take it as general Protestant belief

-Particular posters may have been exposed to many Anti-Catholic sources and authors, many of which (based on personal observation) usually come from ‘Low Church’ Protestant Denominations rather than ‘High Church’ ones, which again might lead to a tricky situation involving someone from the latter group

-In case of converts, whatever they may have been taught or learned in their former Denominations may not hold true for the other one; for example Poster A came from a specific Denomination which teaches OSAS, but Poster B came from another church which does not teach it.

So take for example, there is a chance that Poster A might assume subconciously that Protestants (as a whole) teach OSAS, since that was what he was taught in his church.

Just pointing out that Patrick here shows us all again, that he is a very smart & thoughtful young man!!

One thing that occurs to me, is to think back to when I joined these fora. At that particular point in time, there was a specific case of some folks being cool: cough, cough) less-than-forthcoming on the subject of who s/he was & what s/he was doing here. I specifically, therefore, signed on as “Methodist”, not simply “Christian” ( as though Catholics were all heathens), nor ( worse!!), “not available”.
In my observation in the time since, it is always worse to be evasive as to who you are. While we can always manage to have misunderstandings, I believe it is less likely than when we “practice to deceive”.

I also think that Syele is one of the nicest people of any Christian faith who hangs out around CAF. I think this even when I am defending Catholics against her in a ( hopefully fair) fight.

 

[strngrnrth]

Call it “Roman Road” or “Evangelism Explosion” or many other things, many of these groups get together on Monday nights, following up on Sunday visitors. They will go to a home unannounced, usually in teams of 2 or 3, 2 inexperienced and 1 leader. One of the inexperience usually has been out and they are further along than a newbie. Success on a visit is gaged on whether a “sinners prayer” was said. I have actually seen percentages of closing deals kept. At that point contact is pretty well lost with that person. I can also tell you that Latins are especially preyed upon because alot of them are looked at as being “easy pickens” for conversion because they have historically poorly catechised.
The last church I was with had street outreach. Door-to-door was too scary. We used the Way of the Master and Four Spiritual Laws tracts. We also did a little follow-up by trying to bring them to church.So it was the reverse of what you describe in a way but sounds familiar anyway.
On this finally, a person with the most number of conversions is usually given something in recognition, maybe a gift certificate or something like that. It’s kinda like getting S&H “Green Stamps” or “Notches on your Gun”. I actually saw a fellow keeping track on the inside of his Bible so He could show it to God later.
Wow. I never saw anything like awards for notches. I would be amazed to meet anyone who thought he had to show God his tally.

We didn’t quite believe OSAS but we weren’t sure what it took to lose it either. We glossed that part when doing street outreach. It drove me crazy trying to figure it out. What if I’d already done it?

 

[Howard_Roark]

***LOL

I no longer can take you seriously.***

Take whatever you want however you want…I don’t think it’s a coincedence that Europe fell, intellectuallyafter the reformation rather than before. Protestantism and the loss of unity of thought and doctrine were necessary precursors for the loss of faith in general.

But go, laugh out loud, or whatever it is you want to do.

 

[jmcrae]

***LOL

I no longer can take you seriously.***

Take whatever you want however you want…I don’t think it’s a coincedence that Europe fell, intellectuallyafter the reformation rather than before. Protestantism and the loss of unity of thought and doctrine were necessary precursors for the loss of faith in general.

But go, laugh out loud, or whatever it is you want to do.

I’m with you, I think there’s a definite philosophical connection between Protestantism, Rationalism and secular humanism.

 

[Howard_Roark]

Be careful about “being with me” on anything, we’ll end up in the stockade together.

 

[Syele]

i wouldn’t judge all catholics by what one reads on an internet message board. (even though i’ve been tempted to do this myself a few times.)

don’t / didn’t do that…

if you want to know what the church teaches, read the catechism (and the New Testament of course, but being a protestant christian you’ve probably already done that.)

Read them both more than once

I hope you don’t think that the way a person presents himself on these forums is an acurate portrayal of the complete person.

Course not

I’m a pretty nice guy. You can ask my @#$%?! Protestant neighbors.

One thing that occurs to me, is to think back to when I joined these fora. At that particular point in time, there was a specific case of some folks being cool: cough, cough) less-than-forthcoming on the subject of who s/he was & what s/he was doing here. I specifically, therefore, signed on as “Methodist”, not simply “Christian” ( as though Catholics were all heathens), nor ( worse!!), “not available”.
In my observation in the time since, it is always worse to be evasive as to who you are. While we can always manage to have misunderstandings, I believe it is less likely than when we “practice to deceive”.

I remember some of that going on here too, when I first joined I put that I was an “Arminian non-denominational Christian”. I got a whole lot of odd questions on that one. I guess it was TMI so I eventually narrowed it down to “Christian.”

I also think that Syele is one of the nicest people of any Christian faith who hangs out around CAF. I think this even when I am defending Catholics against her in a ( hopefully fair) fight.

Thanks. And you always fight very fairly too

 

[jmcrae]

I remember some of that going on here too, when I first joined I put that I was an “Arminian non-denominational Christian”.

Only a Calvinist would know what that means, though.

It might have been easier to put, “I’m non-denominational with Calvinist leanings, except without the double-predestination thing.”

 

[Cat]

My recommendation is that you get to know Catholics off-line. There are a lot of really nice Catholics out there who have a sense of awe for and kinship with Protestants, often because they are friends with Protestants, or because they have family members who are Protestants. They have learned over the years that Protestants are Christians, too.

In cities like ours, where there are several megachurches, the Catholics have to learn to get along and to work with our Protestant brothers and sisters to bring about the Kingdom of God.

I think that an online message board selects a certain type of person, one who prefers to write instead of talk, and who prefers anonymous relationships to face-to-face interactions. I am speaking of myself, of course, and perhaps it’s unfair of me to lump others in with me or to make such generalizations. All I’m trying to say is that in real-life, off-line, you will find a lot of Catholics who are not at all what you describe in your OP.

 

[Al_Masetti]

This thread has so many interesting bits that I need to mark it and come back later when I’ve organized my thoughts.

Having lived through being called a “papist” [all in a joking way … of course … ] by a protestant co-worker. Repeatedly. In every encounter. I “corrected” him … said I was a “mackeral snapper” and would only speak and write with him in Latin.]

Having experienced being the ONLY Catholic in one office that any of the folks there had ever met … apart from those who had converted from Catholicism … all of whom had very strange ideas about Catholicism.

And etc.

More later.

 

[Sepharad]

This thread has so many interesting bits that I need to mark it and come back later when I’ve organized my thoughts.

Having lived through being called a “papist” [all in a joking way … of course … ] by a protestant co-worker. Repeatedly. In every encounter. I “corrected” him … said I was a “mackeral snapper” and would only speak and write with him in Latin.]

Having experienced being the ONLY Catholic in one office that any of the folks there had ever met … apart from those who had converted from Catholicism … all of whom had very strange ideas about Catholicism.

And etc.

More later.

Hey Al, my grandmother (maternal) used to tell me stories of that too…being called a “mackerel snapper”…but she was born in 1898 and well remembered the days when Catholics were called that due to not eating meat on Fridays and the Vigils of certain holidays (like Christmas.)

Hope you’re not dating yourself there, pal!

 

[estesbob]

I know that this post might sound somewhat hostile and or negative. I really don’t feel hostile. I just feel … sad when I reflect on some of these things. I decided to list them out here as a FYI. Maybe some of you don’t realize how you appear to a non-catholic reading your posts. Some of you never reflect these negative things, but they are common enough that they come to mind when I think of Catholics now.

1. I’ve learned that there lies a deep resentment and hatred of protestants (not just protestantism) in a large number of Catholics. Even though a huge number of protestants know nothing about Catholics in order to even know if they disagree with Catholicism. Some are outspoken about their anger at us all and others use more sporadic snarky sarcasm thrown in at random.
2. I learned that I am not as charitable as I used to be, and I’m sorry for anyone I offend(ed). I am trying to learn to be bold but not rude. It can be a fine line at times.
3. I learned that for some odd reason many Catholics like recited prayers unless a protestant does it… then its a (insert dramatic voice here) “magic formula.”
4. I’ve learned that this forum is usually not approached as though it is aimed at converting people to Catholicism but instead to create some sort of “points” against non-Catholics (of all types, not only protestants). “Protestants raise their arms towards the ceiling while singing! AH HA they worship the ceiling!” SCORE C -1 P-0!
5. I’ve learned that Catholics have some sort of weird love-hate relationship with the word Roman. Several have tried to explain it, but the answers all contradict, so I have decided to give up understanding it and just use the word when I feel the need. You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time!
6. I’ve learned that the things that bothered me about Catholics before still bother me, even after thorough explanations by Catholics, but now I understand they are all inter-related and not several separate issues. And no, I don’t wanna list them all again right atm. (Maybe another day when I have thought out how to phrase it in a good way that will make sense)
7. I’ve learned that few Catholics really know much at all about Protestants, though most think they do, also the ex-protestants think they know the most and are sometimes the most hostile and/or wrong. (this applies vice versa as well)
8. I have learned that a whole lot of Catholics believe there are hundreds of thousands of Protestant denominations and each denomination believes totally different things, (though no one can list them) AND all of them also miraculously believe all the same things… including sola scriptura, OSAS and probably some horrible thing about Mary . How we can manage such a contradiction is a great Mystery to me (besides that I don’t believe that stuff).
9. I have learned that Protestant bashing is very often treated as OK (though some do admit to it being rude), its seen as just and fair retaliation for the Reformation and all the things Luther did.
10. I have learned all about the Catholic views on Mary, Birth Control, womens head coverings, Justification, the Magisterium, purgatory, and others too. I have learned to better defend my own faith by discussing these things. Its my hope that people who talk with me learn to defend their faith better as well, and that is why I support this forum.

Ive learned to pretty much ignore people who speak in generalites and form opinions based on ancedotal evidence.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I see that my OP didn’t make that one clear enough, I hope this helps.

In your OP, you said: "I learned that for some odd reason many Catholics like recited prayers unless a protestant does it… then its a (insert dramatic voice here) “magic formula.” So you understand why we took you to saying that “many Catholics” like recited prayers unless a Protestant does it…then it’s a ‘magic formula’ to mean exactly what you said.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

1. I’ve learned that few Catholics really know much at all about Protestants, though most think they do, also the ex-protestants think they know the most and are sometimes the most hostile and/or wrong. (this applies vice versa as well)

Hi,

I found your “List of 10” interesting and appreciate your honesty. I’m new to CAF (in fact that is the first time I have used that acronym) I’m a former Seventh-day Adventist in the process of joining the Catholic Church. I have posted on other threads bits and pieces of that story so I won’t repeat all that. I came to this site looking primarily for former SDAs who have converted to Catholicism. If you know anything about Adventism then you will understand that fact that there are not many at all. Most Adventists don’t understand Catholicism and I found on this site that some who post do not understand Adventism. It is good to understand other’s beliefs, especially when entering into dialogue, yet it seems impossible to know the beliefs of many different belief systems.

I read on here that you have already read the Catechism, so there is one suggestion I don’t need to make. It has been a 23 year journey for me to understand Catholicism, but here are some books that helped me, as a Protestant, to understand. And believe me when I tell you that it was a tremendous struggle, given my deeply Protestant mind. But these books were true blessings:

The Hidden Manna: A Theology of the Eucharist, by Father James T. O’Conner

A Father Who Keeps His Promises, by Scott Hahn

And actually anything written by Scot Hahn, He was a former Presbertyrian minister who converted, a very good Biblical scholar (to state it mildly), and a committed Christian.

For what it’s worth, and the help it can provide,
God Bless!!!

 

[traillius]

This is my take on the protestant/catholic thing. And I may be generalizing. The predominant view of catholics on protestants is that protestants are christians,and most still going to heaven, but don’t have all the truth. The view of protestant catholic bashers is that Catholics are Not Christian,Have no truth whatsoever, are Apostate, and Going to Hell because they are catholic. I am sure people will disagree and argue.If you’ll notice, the christian attitude is lopsided towards one end, I’ll let you figure that one.

 

[Syele]

Only a Calvinist would know what that means, though.

It might have been easier to put, “I’m non-denominational with Calvinist leanings, except without the double-predestination thing.”

you mean with NO Calvinist leanings? The TULIP of Calvinism was written to say how wrong Arminianism was.

In your OP, you said: "I learned that for some odd reason many Catholics like recited prayers unless a protestant does it… then its a (insert dramatic voice here) “magic formula.” So you understand why we took you to saying that “many Catholics” like recited prayers unless a Protestant does it…then it’s a ‘magic formula’ to mean exactly what you said.

I said I was sorry and clarified, If you don’t want to accept my apology, then I don’t suppose there is anything I can do about it.

 

[Sepharad]

I’m not sure if I should even post this, but since I plan to be weaning myself off this site soon, I see no harm in it. I hope the few Jews here will not judge me unfairly, but will understand what a person’s mind goes through when they lose a parent.

Three months ago, I lost my mother. She was raised an Italian Catholic, but converted to Orthodox Judaism when she as about 20 (in 1944). I was raised an Orthodox Jew, but I was always very close to my mom’s Catholic family, especially an aunt who is a nun.

When my mother died, I was looking through her old picture albums, when I came across pictures of her First Holy Communion, and I found a tiny prayerbook, dated 1938, from her First Holy Communion, signed by her favorite nun, Sister Maria Agnese. Evidently she saved all these things, even though she had long since become a Jew.

I was fresh in the throes of losing my mother, and seeing these reminders of her childhood, and remembering the warmth I’d felt from her mother, and my aunt the nun, brought up all the warm feelings I had for them, and by extension, their church, even though I was not a member of it.

My family and I began reminiscing about things my mom had told us, one of which was the legend that it always rains on Good Friday. I decided to get online to find out the origin of the belief, which was how I found this forum.

Because of my emotional state at the time I first found this forum, I was vulnerable. People tend to be vulnerable to religious changes when a loved one dies…which is perhaps why the JW nurse tried to convert me when my mom died. They too recognize how vulnerable a person can become when a loved one dies.

So even though my mom had long since given up being Catholic, I had fond memories of her family as they relate to that church.

It would have been easy for a kind, loving Catholic on this forum to reach out to me, and even though it would have been for the wrong reasons (sentimentality, not true faith), there was a chance I might have been swayed by Catholicism.

Catholicism (the traditional form, anyway), though I don’t believe in its doctrines, does hold great power for many, including me. The grandeur, the beauty, the songs (esp. both versions of Ave Maria and the Lord’s Prayer)…I esp. love the Tridentine Latin Mass.

You all had a good chance of winning me (albeit for the wrong reasons, but anyway)…you didn’t realize what a chance you had!

But some of you blew it. You blew it bigtime.

I see God’s Hand in all of this, truly I do. God knew that I was weak due to losing my mom, and He knew the power some aspects of Catholicism had for me, due to my family and sentimental reasons.

So He sent me here to see just how mean some Catholics can be. He even allowed some of them to use the “christ killer” epithet against me, to bring up all those old memories of being beaten as a child, with those very same words hurled at me.

He did it to save me from making a mistake that would have plunged me into the greatest sin a Jew can ever commit: idolatry. Turning my back on Ribbono shel Olam, the Master of the Universe.

I know you all don’t see it this way, but it amazes me beyond belief to see the protecting Hand of God, at a time when I knew I was weak, and He knew I was weak, and He reached out to protect me in a way only He can.

God bless you. And thank you.