106 years later, has anything changed?

[benedictgal]

The belief that a standard hymnal would stymie new sacred music is an unfounded “fear”. For centuries, the Church has always placed limitations/restrictions on what can be done with sacred music. This is mainly because human nature hasn’t and doesn’t change. People always tried to bring the “profane” into the liturgy, so the Church had to always remind musicians and composers that they must refine the music or simply leave it out of mass. History shows that it most definitely did not curtail new sacred music for each period in music. In fact, it encouraged better musicianship and “forced” composers to create works which would be acceptable and refined for Mass, compared to what was often being heard in the secular world of their time.

With a standard hymnal, one can always add to it once it has been reviewed, just like other repertoire in the past.

What Pope St. Pius X dealt with was not much different than what is happening today. It wasn’t just operatic music being used at mass at that time, which, although is beautiful and require tons of skill - I’m an opera singer in the secular music world - it is just too “profane” for use at mass, and people of the time weren’t adapting either their compositions or voices to differentiate between what is appropriate for mass and what was appropriate for the secular world. There was also a lot of schmaltz being produced as well during that time. It’s just as or almost as bad as what we hear today.

I think today, there have been too many decades of just letting people do what they want. Of course, it is always a bit of a fight when people feel that their freedom has been taken away when they were given carte blanche for so many years. There will be hurt feelings now just as there were hurt feelings then 100 years ago and every other period prior to that when the Church “cracked down” on what was being produced musically. I think that is one thing that has to be understood. It isn’t just something happening for the first time in our lifetimes - this has been occurring for centuries.

That is quite true. Music for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass cannot be a matter of allowing everything to come into the Church. A standardized hymnal would certainly purge the chaff from the wheat and would, as you rightly noted, force composers to conform to the standards of the Church and not the other way around.

Today, I went to my parish’s 1PM Mass. Given the fact that I was nursing both a bad migraine and a sour stomach, I could not make it any earlier. The saving grace was that my parochial vicar was preaching. He can make the unbearable bearable. The choiir that sings at this particular Mass has a great talent; practically all of them are members of our local philharmonic chorale. The problem is that they are given substandard material from OCP’s Spirit and Song book. In fact, the youngest member of the choir is pushing 40. It was difficult hearing tawdry music (Schutte, Farrell, et al). The choir is able to sing in Latin (I contracted the Philharmonic chorale for the diocesan White Mass). My parish just gves them horrible material. Our music director is relocating to another city. I told one of them that maybe they should get someone from the chorale to come in and take over the music program so as to improve what we have at Mass today. Even the choir member is not particularly fond of what they have to sing.

A standardized hymnal would also force accountability on the shoulders of the publishing houses. I believe that there would have to be stricter quality control measures so as to ensure that everything is up to standards. Furthermore, the publishing houses would have to read the authoritative documents of the Holy See and not take it upon themselves to have an “anything goes” atttude.

The only thing, I suspect, that has changed in the 106 years since Pope St. Pius X wrote his MP, is that the documents are available for all to say. No one, not even the publishing houses, can plead ignorance.

 

[Disciple96]

benedictgal: It was difficult hearing tawdry music (Schutte, Farrell, et al).

Heh. Tawdry. That’s for sure. I’m going to have to remember that. I shall forever after refuse to sing the tawdry trash with which the publishing house toadies fill our “music” issues. Music issues? I’ve got some music issues for 'em.

 

[Sarabande]

A problem that I also see today is that, while in the past, especially during the height of musical composition, the Church would promote and encourage schools and training in music, you do not get this anymore. Many Catholic schools don’t even have music teachers or music directors for the children. I don’t know of many dioceses which have boy-choirs that does sacred repertoire spanning the centuries. You rarely hear of priests who actually could compose like Victoria, Monteverdi or Vivaldi - and these are the composer-priests that are more well-known who composed both sacred and secular music. (Vivaldi is only a recent rediscovery.)

Basically, you can’t make too many inroads in a change of attitude or mentality without putting in place the right people to help teach and encourage the next generation of Catholic musicians/composers. You need people who don’t already have a negative attitude about our Church’s musical heritage. Younger people deserve a lot more credit than what many older people give them. When I first taught the simple chant to my students I was not that much older than my oldest students. It can be taught, encouraged and subsequently appreciated and even enjoyed by young people if presented correctly. The same goes with the other music.

 

[Disciple96]

A problem that I also see today is that, while in the past, especially during the height of musical composition, the Church would promote and encourage schools and training in music, you do not get this anymore. Many Catholic schools don’t even have music teachers or music directors for the children.
…

Basically, you can’t make too many inroads in a change of attitude or mentality without putting in place the right people to help teach and encourage the next generation of Catholic musicians/composers. You need people who don’t already have a negative attitude about our Church’s musical heritage. Younger people deserve a lot more credit than what many older people give them…

Too true! I taught music in a private Catholic school for a while. (Proof of how desperate they were.) We had no curriculum, I just had to wing it with no teaching training, for two classes of K-8 every week. Oy! And cantor! I was a brand new convert and working a nearly full-time job besides. What an adventure. What an experience. What an exercise in futility.

But the kids were great. They were starved for beauty. We explored all kinds of things. And I snuck Church music and teaching in as much as I could. It was great. I volunteered to start a youth choir and they dropped everything but that into my lap. But I’m glad I did it. Oh, and did I mention that they paid me next to nothin’? Ach, I chalked it up to experience. Now that same school has a music program that they brag about on Catholic radio ads. Go figure, huh? Oh, well, what’s one more bruise on an old bruised ego, huh? Sigh.

 

[Sarabande]

That is quite true. Music for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass cannot be a matter of allowing everything to come into the Church. A standardized hymnal would certainly purge the chaff from the wheat and would, as you rightly noted, force composers to conform to the standards of the Church and not the other way around.

Right. It creates better musicianship and even more creativity - look at how much better polyphony became, musically-speaking as well as aesthetically-speaking. YET, for use in Mass, it conformed to the Church’s standards.

The only thing, I suspect, that has changed in the 106 years since Pope St. Pius X wrote his MP, is that the documents are available for all to say. No one, not even the publishing houses, can plead ignorance.

That is a plus. In the past, it would sometimes take a much longer time for word to get around - not just with music standards, but with everything else. Today, the information is right at our fingertips. People really can’t plead ignorance, unless they truly don’t understand what the documents are saying. In that case, perhaps those people shouldn’t be in charge or they should have someone who can explain it to them clearly.

 

[benedictgal]

A problem that I also see today is that, while in the past, especially during the height of musical composition, the Church would promote and encourage schools and training in music, you do not get this anymore. Many Catholic schools don’t even have music teachers or music directors for the children. I don’t know of many dioceses which have boy-choirs that does sacred repertoire spanning the centuries. You rarely hear of priests who actually could compose like Victoria, Monteverdi or Vivaldi - and these are the composer-priests that are more well-known who composed both sacred and secular music. (Vivaldi is only a recent rediscovery.)

Basically, you can’t make too many inroads in a change of attitude or mentality without putting in place the right people to help teach and encourage the next generation of Catholic musicians/composers. You need people who don’t already have a negative attitude about our Church’s musical heritage. Younger people deserve a lot more credit than what many older people give them. When I first taught the simple chant to my students I was not that much older than my oldest students. It can be taught, encouraged and subsequently appreciated and even enjoyed by young people if presented correctly. The same goes with the other music.

The only priest that I know of who is still composing (and he is not old) is Fr. Samuel Weber from the Archdiocese of St. Louis. In fact, when I was there, I got to hear some of his compositions. We sang them when we prayed the office with Archbishop Malcolm Ranjinth. He also wrote settings for the Entrance and Communion antiphons (which I also got to hear). He has them up on the archdiocesan sacred music website for downloading.

I am not sure, but, I think that the choirmaster for the Capella Sistena choir is also an accomplished composer, having written some settings. I also believe that Msgr. Georg Ratzinger has written some settings, as well, when he was choirmaster in Regensberg.

It’s funny that you should mention the schools. Musicam Sacram, back in the late 1960s, urged that these not fall by the wayside. In fact, both the late Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI also urged for these to continue development. Unfortunately, the only one that I can think of that is fully engaged in it is the aforementioned Capella Sistena choir. Those kids keep getting younger every year; but, the older ones are still there. I would give an arm, a leg and my right eyeball for our diocese to have a schola. I would rather have a schola than a mariachi band at the Cathedral. The closest thing we have to a schola is the Philharmonic chorale.

 

[Victorious]

It’s pretty jarring to hear an unaccompanied priest sing the consecration then have the folk group bust in with the guitar “Amen,” and with time I think even those more dedicated to the “popular” school would eventually pick up on this and moderate their music choices.

I think of this as part of the Salvador-Dali-izing of the Church. Chaos and asymmetry have displaced order and symmetry in physical church buildings; and the same has happened in the liturgy. We have a mish-mash of Mass settings, and a crazy patchwork of traditional hymns with 1970s pabulum; we have the priest chanting and the congregation responding in rock. It’s all of a piece.

You rarely hear of priests who actually could compose like Victoria, Monteverdi or Vivaldi - and these are the composer-priests that are more well-known who composed both sacred and secular music. (Vivaldi is only a recent rediscovery.)

I didn’t realize Vivaldi was a priest!

 

[Disciple96]

I think of this as part of the Salvador-Dali-izing of the Church. Chaos and asymmetry have displaced order and symmetry in physical church buildings; and the same has happened in the liturgy. We have a mish-mash of Mass settings, and a crazy patchwork of traditional hymns with 1970s pabulum; we have the priest chanting and the congregation responding in rock. It’s all of a piece.

Ha! That was jarring just to read and imagine! Or, to remember from my own experiences. At least there is a movement going on, I guess there has been for a long time now. We’ll just have to keep plugging away and praying, I suppose. And chiming in whenever we can.

(I’m a bit in awe, listening to you guys talk, er, read what you’re writing. My own experience, and competence, is nothing at all like what you all possess. I’m learning just by reading these threads.)

 

[Sarabande]

I didn’t realize Vivaldi was a priest!

Yes, he was called “The Red Priest” because of his red hair, although shortly after he was ordained he did not celebrate mass in public due to an physical disorder, which isn’t really quite known. There is some speculation of what it was. It could have been anxiety or something like asthma. Some speculate that he just didn’t want to be a priest, but, again that is all speculation. No one knows for certain, except that the Church excused him from celebrating public mass due to his “illness”. For a while he was a music master (master of violin) at an orphanage and was in charge of the girls (which many were the illegitimate children of noblemen). Many of the compositions he composed were performed by the children in these orphanages, just to give an idea of the level of technical ability these children had.

 

[Victorious]

Yes, he was called “The Red Priest” because of his red hair, although shortly after he was ordained he did not celebrate mass in public due to an physical disorder, which isn’t really quite known. There is some speculation of what it was. It could have been anxiety or something like asthma. Some speculate that he just didn’t want to be a priest, but, again that is all speculation. No one knows for certain, except that the Church excused him from celebrating public mass due to his “illness”. For a while he was a music master (master of violin) at an orphanage and was in charge of the girls (which many were the illegitimate children of noblemen). Many of the compositions he composed were performed by the children in these orphanages, just to give an idea of the level of technical ability these children had.

Well I’ll be. Interesting! I didn’t know Victoria was a priest, either. In the Cathedral Choir I belong to, we have done both Vivaldi and Victoria (I really love Victoria’s O Magnum Mysterium).

Well, all this just goes to prove once again: Catholic priests pack the gear.

 

[thunderballs75]

Well I’ll be. Interesting! I didn’t know Victoria was a priest, either. In the Cathedral Choir I belong to, we have done both Vivaldi and Victoria (I really love Victoria’s O Magnum Mysterium).

Well, all this just goes to prove once again: Catholic priests pack the gear.

Yeah, they were both priests. And contrary to what the other person may have said, they were both devout. Palestrina also almost entered the priesthood.

Victoria’s music is gorgeous. O Magnum Mysterium is my favorite. Vivaldi, IMO is inappropriate for Mass.

 

[japhy]

My parish regularly uses two "Great Amen"s which can’t be content with just saying “Amen”.

One is: “Amen, Amen, Amen, forever and ever, Amen.”

The other is, believe it or not, not textually fit to be sung year round. Why? See for yourself: “Amen, Alleluia, for ever and ever, for ever, Alleluia, for ever and ever, Amen.”

 

[Sarabande]

Yeah, they were both priests. And contrary to what the other person may have said, they were both devout. Palestrina also almost entered the priesthood.

I never said that Victoria, Vivaldi and Monteverdi were not devout. I mentioned that they wrote both sacred and secular music, but composing secular music does not make one not devout.

What I said about Vivaldi was speculation by historians and what contemporaries of Vivaldi said of him during his lifetime and I believe I made sure to mention that it was speculation. For example, other priests or whomever would say that he left the altar during mass, prior to being excused from saying mass in public, to write music down. It could have or could not have been true, except for his contemporaries who wrote that down about him. None of us knows since we weren’t there to witness it. But if you are into music history or just history in general, it is good to try to know as much as you can about certain periods, people and composers even if we don’t like what we find out about them. It makes them more human for me, knowing that they made mistakes too or had problems just like everyone else. It also doesn’t make me think less of the person or his/her music. And even if Vivaldi did leave mass to write down music, it still does not prove that he wasn’t devout to me. If I felt that way about him, I would have said outright that he wasn’t devout or not a good Catholic. I tend to think that Vivaldi might have had an anxiety disorder which kept him from being in front of a lot of people because he’d complain of a tightening of the chest when he said mass. He might have been having a panic attack. Perhaps if he did leave the altar and wrote music it was a way to calm himself down. But again, this is only my speculation on the matter.

 

[Sarabande]

Well I’ll be. Interesting! I didn’t know Victoria was a priest, either. In the Cathedral Choir I belong to, we have done both Vivaldi and Victoria (I really love Victoria’s O Magnum Mysterium).

Well, all this just goes to prove once again: Catholic priests pack the gear.

Yeah! I love Victoria’s “O Magnum Mysterium” too. We do that one (the motet - not his mass although his Missa “O Magnum Mysterium” is beautiful too) at our parish choir along with his Missa “Quarti Toni”

Here is his Gloria from the Missa “O Magnum Mysterium”. This church is actually an Anglican Catholic church, although from what I’ve been told by colleagues and former classmates who have sung in the choir (it’s a professional choir with singers from local music departments or just from the area as is quite easy to hear) it is very easy to mistaken it as a Catholic mass from “former days”. For a couple of friends of mine who are Catholic and had gone there to experience it, it made them cry to think that our Church had lost this.

youtube.com/watch?v=LLBTt-CgSRY

This is one of my favorites that our parish choir does by Monteverdi - his “Cantate Domino”.

youtube.com/watch?v=LLBTt-CgSRY

 

[Sarabande]

It’s funny that you should mention the schools. Musicam Sacram, back in the late 1960s, urged that these not fall by the wayside. In fact, both the late Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI also urged for these to continue development. Unfortunately, the only one that I can think of that is fully engaged in it is the aforementioned Capella Sistena choir. Those kids keep getting younger every year; but, the older ones are still there. I would give an arm, a leg and my right eyeball for our diocese to have a schola. I would rather have a schola than a mariachi band at the Cathedral. The closest thing we have to a schola is the Philharmonic chorale.

This is the closest that I know of in my area which has a boy choir within a diocese. It’s not a great boy choir, but they are decent and some things they do very well, and the director is obviously dedicated to them (in one of the videos the mother says that the boys spend 4-5 hours practice on Sundays and then Schola made up of the advanced singers in the choir spend an additional 2 hours on Tuesdays). It’s good to see that it is being kept up in the diocese and it has been around since 1969. It’s that kind of dedication which is needed everywhere - from those in charge AND the parents. That’s key.

youtube.com/watch?v=HXg0ZAuo5Zw&feature=related

From a concert:
youtube.com/watch?v=PFRxXihXtUA

 

[ridiculeddisply]

I would posit that God does not, necessarily, care about the genre of music being used to worship him, it’s the content of such music both lyrically and aesthetically that matters. For instance, I would take issue with “metal” music wherein the singer screams his praise incoherently being used in worship, but if an acoustic guitar is involved I think it’s decidedly a human inference that the Lord prefers organ and choir over acoustic guitar and singular voice. After all, sheet music in hymnals can be played on a variety of instruments without much alteration, so I don’t really see this as a legitimate issue, and more of a way to legitimize our own instinct to huddle around generational or traditional separation.

 

[benedictgal]

I would posit that God does not, necessarily, care about the genre of music being used to worship him, it’s the content of such music both lyrically and aesthetically that matters. For instance, I would take issue with “metal” music wherein the singer screams his praise incoherently being used in worship, but if an acoustic guitar is involved I think it’s decidedly a human inference that the Lord prefers organ and choir over acoustic guitar and singular voice. After all, sheet music in hymnals can be played on a variety of instruments without much alteration, so I don’t really see this as a legitimate issue, and more of a way to legitimize our own instinct to huddle around generational or traditional separation.

I would respectfully disagree with your first statement. The Lord spent a lot of time dictating to Moses just how He was to be worshipped, the manner in which this would be done and how it was to take place. In fact, the norms that the Lord dictated to Moses for Ancient Israel to use were very specific. The Church, as the New Israel, has her norms for the cultic worship that we have, namely the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The fact that Pope St. Pius X and his successors were very specific about not using instruments that have a predominantly secular tone should give us an indication that this should not be done.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

During my grade school years, the children’s choir, which included just about anybody who got to Mass before school began, used nothing but the Laudate hymnal. I’m not sure if it is even published anymore. We did ok with Latin hymns as well as chant. Nobody thought we were doing anything particularly extraordinary.

We had one in our school too, I don’t know if we used the same hymnal though. All I can remember is the blue cover and the Latin hymns. Then on the weekends we went to Sunday Mass and got the guitars and tambourines, it’s a wonder we didn’t all become schizophrenic.

I completely agree! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been at a Mass where the priest has been praying the Mass in such a sacred, reverent manner – only to have the music sound like such a sappy pop train wreck. Sometimes I think silence would be better.

Love is Patient

The parish I’ve been going to does a musical “Our Father” that is just AWFUL. “our fA-AHther…who art in hEA-EAven”. It’s such a struggle to hold onto a sense of sacred with that going on, it just makes me cringe.

 

[benedictgal]

Originally Posted by Love is Patient
I completely agree! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been at a Mass where the priest has been praying the Mass in such a sacred, reverent manner – only to have the music sound like such a sappy pop train wreck. Sometimes I think silence would be better.

Love is Patient

You and I must be going to the same parish. My parochial vicar celebrates a very reverent Mass; however, the music is horrible. It’s the OCP sappy stuff. What I would give for a return to the Worship III hymnal (without the new bad translations). At least the music was a lot better.

I wonder if OCP even bothers to read the authoritative liturgical documents of the Church.

 

[ELROD]

Silence! Unplug your organs, close your music books, go sit down with the rest of the faithful. Let the priest decide if there is chant or song or whatever. I’ll bet your fellow parishioners, if they were to tell the TRUTH, eighty percent would just love for that to happen. Well, you know what they say, many a truth is said in jest.

Don’t forget who is important here, Jesus Christ.