12 princes and Islam

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arthra said:
Yes I’ve heard of the prophecy

*Twelve Princes shall he beget and I will make him a great nation.” *

of the twelve princes and how they relate to the Twelve Imams.

Prophet Muhammad traced His ancestry to Ishmael and Fatima His daughter married Imam Ali from which the line of the Imams sprang.

:o
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Is Muhammad actually a descendant of Ishmael or do Muslims just say that to give him more credit as a prophet? Do you believe the prophecy is true?
 
Sarah_23 said:
Is Muhammad actually a descendant of Ishmael or do Muslims just say that to give him more credit as a prophet? Do you believe the prophecy is true?
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Yes I think the prophecy was fulfilled…🙂

Yes… I believe Prophet Muhammad was descended from Ishmael (Ishmael means God hears.)

… God made a promise to Abraham in Genesis 17th chapter:

*I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you…
**0 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

*The “great nation” I believe was the Ummah or nation of Islam that united the tribes of Arabia descended from Ishmael.

🙂
**
 
arthra said:
Yes I think the prophecy was fulfilled…🙂

Yes… I believe Prophet Muhammad was descended from Ishmael (Ishmael means God hears.)

… God made a promise to Abraham in Genesis 17th chapter:

*I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you…
**0 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

*The “great nation” I believe was the Ummah or nation of Islam that united the tribes of Arabia descended from Ishmael.

🙂
**
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Thank you, I will have to look more into that subject. Don’t Bahai believe that Jesus was crucified? How do you fit that in with what the Quran says about the Crucifixion?
 
Hello,
I promise that what I say is the truth, god and the Heavenly angels can be witnesses to this.

I’m not going to say what it was about, but a little while ago I was at war with the Roman Catholic Church.
I also became at war with God. We become as the angels in Heaven. Did I have a say about my birth? No! Jesus suffered and died on the cross for me. That was why I was angry with God. My choice would have been to made as one of the Heavenly angels.
I went on a slippery road and one day looked back and didn’t like what I was becoming. I went in to the kitchen and while making a cup of coffee I told God war between him and me is over. Jesus is very important to me. I then found I could not have been angry had I not have loved Jesus. I was angry because he suffered and died for me. He went through all that he did for me. My salvation is in what he did. His love is that great he heals our wounds in his. By his stripes we are healed. What great love.

I told God war between he and me is over. What did he do?

I found myself posting in a topic asking if God exists. I found myself siding with a Muslim. Then came the deeper things and I did a search on the Internet based on a suspicion. I then committed one of the biggest sins in Islam. I posted on a forum with the Username “A Son of God” Not THE Son of God. My very username was blasphemy.

We are to love our enemies and Jesus has proved to us that he is our greatest friend.

We see it said on the Internet that the Roman Catholic Church is the Antichrist mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The Pope being said to be the false prophet.

666 is a Holy Number in Islam. The Quran blasphemes the entire host of Heaven and calls the Holy Trinity an abomination. The Jesus of the Quran is not the Jesus of truth and salvation. The Jesus of the Quran failed and had to be rescued having been beaten by the devil.

God is love. Jesus is love most pure and Divine. the Father is love, pure and Divine, together in one Holy Spirit of love that is pure and Divine. The Holy Trinity of love.

We could not know and love God if it were not for the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Take Jesus out of the Roman Catholic Church and it has got nothing, and we would have nothing. The greatest gift God has given to us is himself. The lesson he has given us is that we are called to love. To love is to be drawn more in to the heart of Christ who shed his blood for the sins of mankind.

that’s a ramble if you like.

:blessyou:.
 
Sarah_23 said:
Thank you, I will have to look more into that subject. Don’t Bahai believe that Jesus was crucified? How do you fit that in with what the Quran says about the Crucifixion?
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Thanks for your reply Sarah…

Baha’is do believe Jesus was crucified. The verse in the Qur’an we believe is in reference to the Spirit of Jesus… The translation of A. Yusuf Ali in 4:157 says:

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

It appeared to them they had killed the Christ…

The next verse 4:158 has

*Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

-So in our view the body of Jesus was crucified…but His Spirit was raised up.

In the Gospel of Luke 23:46 when Jesus breathed His last, He said:

“Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit.”

*So in our belief there is no real contraction between the Gospel, the Qur’an and our beliefs…
 
Steve_Jay said:
Hello,
I promise that what I say is the truth, god and the Heavenly angels can be witnesses to this.

I’m not going to say what it was about, but a little while ago I was at war with the Roman Catholic Church.
I also became at war with God. We become as the angels in Heaven. Did I have a say about my birth? No! Jesus suffered and died on the cross for me. That was why I was angry with God. My choice would have been to made as one of the Heavenly angels.
I went on a slippery road and one day looked back and didn’t like what I was becoming. I went in to the kitchen and while making a cup of coffee I told God war between him and me is over. Jesus is very important to me. I then found I could not have been angry had I not have loved Jesus. I was angry because he suffered and died for me. He went through all that he did for me. My salvation is in what he did. His love is that great he heals our wounds in his. By his stripes we are healed. What great love.

I told God war between he and me is over. What did he do?

I found myself posting in a topic asking if God exists. I found myself siding with a Muslim. Then came the deeper things and I did a search on the Internet based on a suspicion. I then committed one of the biggest sins in Islam. I posted on a forum with the Username “A Son of God” Not THE Son of God. My very username was blasphemy.

We are to love our enemies and Jesus has proved to us that he is our greatest friend.

We see it said on the Internet that the Roman Catholic Church is the Antichrist mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The Pope being said to be the false prophet.

666 is a Holy Number in Islam. The Quran blasphemes the entire host of Heaven and calls the Holy Trinity an abomination. The Jesus of the Quran is not the Jesus of truth and salvation. The Jesus of the Quran failed and had to be rescued having been beaten by the devil.

God is love. Jesus is love most pure and Divine. the Father is love, pure and Divine, together in one Holy Spirit of love that is pure and Divine. The Holy Trinity of love.

We could not know and love God if it were not for the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Take Jesus out of the Roman Catholic Church and it has got nothing, and we would have nothing. The greatest gift God has given to us is himself. The lesson he has given us is that we are called to love. To love is to be drawn more in to the heart of Christ who shed his blood for the sins of mankind.

that’s a ramble if you like.

:blessyou:.
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Thank you Steve Jay,
I agree with what you said about what you say about Jesus. I’m not sure though about 666 being a Holy number in the Quran. Could you tell me more about that?
 
arthra said:
Thanks for your reply Sarah…

Baha’is do believe Jesus was crucified. The verse in the Qur’an we believe is in reference to the Spirit of Jesus… The translation of A. Yusuf Ali in 4:157 says:

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

It appeared to them they had killed the Christ…

The next verse 4:158 has

*Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

-So in our view the body of Jesus was crucified…but His Spirit was raised up.

In the Gospel of Luke 23:46 when Jesus breathed His last, He said:

“Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit.”

*So in our belief there is no real contraction between the Gospel, the Qur’an and our beliefs…
Click to expand...
Okay, I see how you can interpret that.
I also have seen a interpretation about how the Jews thought they killed Jesus but it was actually the Romans.
Any thoughts on that interpretation?
 
Sarah_23 said:
Okay, I see how you can interpret that.
I also have seen a interpretation about how the Jews thought they killed Jesus but it was actually the Romans.
Any thoughts on that interpretation?
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No not really… of course according to the story it was the Temple priests who had Jesus arrested and brought Him to trial and then they turned Him over to Pilate and so on… that He angered the religious establishment is pretty clear, this same scenario occurred when the Bab was arrested.and.brought to trial and eventually executed in Tabriz in 1850.
 
Sarah_23 said:
Thank you Steve Jay,
I agree with what you said about what you say about Jesus. I’m not sure though about 666 being a Holy number in the Quran. Could you tell me more about that?
Click to expand...
Hello Sarah, thank you for replying.
I could say a lot about what I learned while posting on an Islamic forum. Quite an eye opener. The experience has only helped me to realise something. I was born in a Roman Catholic family. I had no say about my birth, and as I said, I later became angry because my choice would have been as the angels in Heaven. My anger was because Jesus suffered and died for me. I was however born very blessed. I was privileged because to not know Jesus is an intolerable thought to me. I could have been born as a Muslim. I might then have been saying that The Son of God is a thing most monstrous. I might have been saying that there is no salvation in Jesus. I could have been saying Jesus did not suffer and die. That gives me compassion for Muslims. It stops me from hating them.
They have no more say about their birth than I did.

Many translate the latin to try and work out what 666 means. The book of Revelation was given in Greek, so the Greek has to be used and not the latin. The Quran is in arabic yet there are Greek symbols on the cover. Those Greek symbols translate to 666 and mean “There is one God Allah and Muhammad is his messenger.”

While posting on that Islamic forum, it was a very spiritual time for me. I noticed some very curious things.

Jesus is that Great living rock in whom there is light and life. The Cornerstone. Jesus is the bread of heaven. Jesus also said “If anyone is hungry who would give them a stone?”
Jesus has given us himself.
Muhammad left a Kaaba stone. A lifeless black stone in which there is neither life nor light. Muhammad denied the Bread of Heaven.

The crescent moon. A symbol of Islam. Why a crescent moon and not a full moon? When the moon eclipses the sun…darkness. A hidden meaning.

I hope these links are permitted:
beholdthebeast.com/islam__quran_and_666.htm

666soon.com/666_the_holy_number_of_islam.htm

The second link has a page with a link in it that no longer works. It used to and it had a black page with 666 in red going round as that link shows. Muslims do know about 666 and say the book Of Revelation was written by the devil to make it look as though 666 is an unholy number.

God bless you Sarah.
 
Steve_Jay said:
Many translate the latin to try and work out what 666 means. The book of Revelation was given in Greek, so the Greek has to be used and not the latin. The Quran is in arabic yet there are Greek symbols on the cover. Those Greek symbols translate to 666 and mean “There is one God Allah and Muhammad is his messenger.”
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Oh my, maybe 666 stands for Mohammed and that is the “man of perdition”?
 
I don’t know about 666 being the number of Islam but I don’t think historical communication between our two faiths (which there was mutual respect) ever suggested such a thing.

Except some personal opinions (by Christians well known in fact) that Mohammed was visited by a demon and not an Angel. Certainly not Church teaching. One must adhere to the Church hierarchy and what they say about Islam.

MJ
 
latingirl said:
Oh my, maybe 666 stands for Mohammed and that is the “man of perdition”?
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Can’t be. If Mohammed was the Anti Christ who was his false prophet? Abu Bakr? :rotfl:

Ok I’ll be serious now.

The Biblical false prophet is probably a John the Baptist antitype, a “precursor” to the man of perdition. Mohammed had no such precursor. He was pretty much un-announced.
 
We need to understand something about the history of Muhammad.

Muhammad’s father was called Abdullah. the name suggests that he was a hight priest of the Meccan moon god. Muhammad became an orphan when he was about four years old. He was taken in and raised by a woman who followed the moon god. It had been noticed that Christians had prophets and Jews had prophets but none for the moon god. She determined that Muhammad was going to be the prophet. That might have been on account of his father being a high priest. She would take him to a cave where she said his life as a prophet would begin. Muhammad was taken by the throat by a seeming angel and ordered to read. He was illiterate. When he fled the cave he was told by the woman that it had been the angel Gabriel.What a thug! That incident would have taught Muhammad one thing. Fear can induce obedience.
Mecca was known to be a place of devil worship, and Muhammad sought to rid Mecca of all other kinds of worship. He was rejected. He stumbled upon a band of mercenaries and gave them promises if they followed him. They conquered Mecca and did abominable things. Muhammad’s weapon was fear. He had kept the Kaaba stone of the moon god. That is the stone Muslims are duty bound to have pilgrimage to at least once in their lifetime, if able.
Muhammad based his idea of having power over life and death in his decision to spare a life or not. That’s a very different idea to Jesus’. Jesus conquered death itself.
Muhammad changed the commandments of God. He gave authority for males to have four wives. He had 19 “wives” himself.

Quran; 4:15
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not

Quran 19:88
They say: “(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!” Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Surah 5:17a
17. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.

John 3: 31-36
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God* gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.*
 
latingirl said:
Oh my, maybe 666 stands for Mohammed and that is the “man of perdition”?
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Hello Latin girl.
there is a verse of scripture in the Bible that is a bit of a riddle. We know that God is truthful.

2 Thessalonians 2: 1-11
As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. 4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you? 6 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who now restrains it is removed. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, 10 and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, 12 so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.

It’s verse 11. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false,

God is truthful so how can God send a deception? He can if what he sends is the truth but is accepted to be a lie. Our Salvation is in the truth that Jesus suffered died and rose again. That is being called a lie, as I have shown from the Quran itself.

God bless you.
 
MartinJordan said:
I don’t know about 666 being the number of Islam but I don’t think historical communication between our two faiths (which there was mutual respect) ever suggested such a thing.

Except some personal opinions (by Christians well known in fact) that Mohammed was visited by a demon and not an Angel. Certainly not Church teaching. One must adhere to the Church hierarchy and what they say about Islam.

MJ
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What does the Church say about Muhammad?
 
Steve_Jay said:
We need to understand something about the history of Muhammad.

Muhammad’s father was called Abdullah. the name suggests that he was a hight priest of the Meccan moon god. Muhammad became an orphan when he was about four years old. He was taken in and raised by a woman who followed the moon god. It had been noticed that Christians had prophets and Jews had prophets but none for the moon god. She determined that Muhammad was going to be the prophet. That might have been on account of his father being a high priest. She would take him to a cave where she said his life as a prophet would begin. Muhammad was taken by the throat by a seeming angel and ordered to read. He was illiterate. When he fled the cave he was told by the woman that it had been the angel Gabriel.What a thug! That incident would have taught Muhammad one thing. Fear can induce obedience.
Mecca was known to be a place of devil worship, and Muhammad sought to rid Mecca of all other kinds of worship. He was rejected. He stumbled upon a band of mercenaries and gave them promises if they followed him. They conquered Mecca and did abominable things. Muhammad’s weapon was fear. He had kept the Kaaba stone of the moon god. That is the stone Muslims are duty bound to have pilgrimage to at least once in their lifetime, if able.
Muhammad based his idea of having power over life and death in his decision to spare a life or not. That’s a very different idea to Jesus’. Jesus conquered death itself.
Muhammad changed the commandments of God. He gave authority for males to have four wives. He had 19 “wives” himself.

Quran; 4:15
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not

Quran 19:88
They say: “(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!” Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Surah 5:17a
17. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.

John 3: 31-36
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God* gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.*

Do you believe the Mahdi is the Ant-Christ? I’m not quite sure if he is or isn’t.
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Sarah_23 said:
Do you believe the Mahdi is the Ant-Christ? I’m not quite sure if he is or isn’t.
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Hello Sarah,
I don’t quite see how that fits in with the book of Revelation. It’s an Islamic thing so I don’t trust it. Jesus promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against his church.
I used to question why Jesus ascended rather than just disappear. Heaven isn’t a place in the sky. One day I realised the importance of the two angels that appeared, as Jesus went up so he will return.
 
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