H
HagiaSophia
Guest
Yes she is and glad to be so.
- Status
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
I can’t stand hearing anything more about that wretched Chittister woman! Please, Pope Benedict, ask her to leave the Church.
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
Lisa N:
He is also a great 1st century theologian, and a great 2nd century theologian, and a great 3rd century theologian . . . and a great 20th century theologian, and a great 21st century theologian . . .
Well, if Sister Joan said the new pope is a great 14th century theologian, she is right.
He is also a great 1st century theologian, and a great 2nd century theologian, and a great 3rd century theologian . . . and a great 20th century theologian, and a great 21st century theologian . . .
E
Eden
Guest
Kay Cee:
Perfect response! :clapping: I wish these “American Catholics” would stop make us look like a bunch of “loony bins”.
B
BLB_Oregon
Guest
Ani Ibi:
It is inevitable that someone in the church is going to raise these questions. We needn’t respond with “Sit down and shut up, or, if you’d rather not, there’s the door!” As long as the questioners are content to question and hear answers, without throwing off the rules we have been given, we can take having the questions repeated.
Some of us are afflicted with questions… sometimes, we cannot hear the answer, even when it is given in clear language. A consistent and patient response is a very good one in these cases.
My bar is that they do not teach that the Pope and the Magesterium do not have the authority to hand down this teaching, that they do not attempt to circumvent this teaching, that they only question. If they remain faithful in other respects and advise others to do the same, come what may, we can handle the questions.
Oh, come on, now. With one billion of us, surely we’re going to have a few going off on a rant every once in awhile.
It is inevitable that someone in the church is going to raise these questions. We needn’t respond with “Sit down and shut up, or, if you’d rather not, there’s the door!” As long as the questioners are content to question and hear answers, without throwing off the rules we have been given, we can take having the questions repeated.
Some of us are afflicted with questions… sometimes, we cannot hear the answer, even when it is given in clear language. A consistent and patient response is a very good one in these cases.
My bar is that they do not teach that the Pope and the Magesterium do not have the authority to hand down this teaching, that they do not attempt to circumvent this teaching, that they only question. If they remain faithful in other respects and advise others to do the same, come what may, we can handle the questions.
L
Lisa_N
Guest
Kay Cee:
Maybe next meeting I’ll wear my “Cardinal Ratziner Fanclub” tee shirt!
Lisa N
Perfect response. I decided not to get into it with this woman. She is Episcopalian and obviously prefers theology that changes directions like a windblown leaf. I totally agree about Pope Benedict. What a brilliant man! It took well over a month to get the books he wrote but they are well worth the wait and expense. We are so blessed to have such a great man as our Pope!
Maybe next meeting I’ll wear my “Cardinal Ratziner Fanclub” tee shirt!
Lisa N
L
Lisa_N
Guest
BLB I know where you are coming from but in all fairness these dissidents’ rants are anything but ‘once in a while.’ There is the constantly beating drum, same song, different verse. I don’t know if they hope they will simply wear the Vatican down — doubtful at best— or if they simply like stirring the pot.
But at what point DO we say please cease and desist, we’ve answered that very same question 3987539753975 times and the answer is still no. They remind me of whiny kids who want something from their parents and will not give up.
Sometimes we don’t WANT to hear the answer…I think that is the reality with this group. If they came up with some new and supportable approach for their questions they might be easier to take but as a new Catholic I find it hard to believe they think that the answer is going to change.
Agree that behavior is important but what about the badwill stirred up? IOW what purpose is served by continuing to beat a dead horse…I guess they think if they keep kicking ol’ Trigger he’ll pick up his halter and walk? Sheesh.
Lisa N
M
mark_a
Guest
I was going to suggest that these ladies have the right to ask questions, but after skimming through the letters. . . . .
Nevermind.
What do they love about the Church so much that they can’t follow their own conscience to a place that already accepts the things they want?
And the disrespect. . . .
Nevermind.
What do they love about the Church so much that they can’t follow their own conscience to a place that already accepts the things they want?
And the disrespect. . . .
K
KateQ
Guest
I got through about five of them and then just had to quit reading. Uck. Nothing new here. I guess that these women think that the Holy Father can learn from them, but they are unwilling to learn from him – or JPII – or Paul VI. They are an embarrassment. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_5.gif They do not speak for this woman.
B
BLB_Oregon
Guest
Lisa N:
Of course they are going to keep asking and asking. We women had to keep asking and asking for those things we really did deserve that we were denied, like the chance to be a doctor or a firefighter or to play sports in high school. I’m not saying rights activists were always right: there were those that thought that having the right to opportunity was the same as having a right to participate regardless of merit. But still… getting a “no” didn’t mean we were getting a just response from the big wide world. Thank goodness there were women out there who wouldn’t take “no” for an answer.
When you teach a child that they won’t get justice unless they fight for it, they get into that habit of fighting for what is right. “No” hasn’t always meant “no, you are being treated fairly”. Sometimes, “no” has meant “not now, I don’t feel like it” or “no, because fair is what I say fair is.” That there is still some backlash from that kind of injustice is to be expected, don’t you think?
Those things are hard to read, particularly when they are disrespectful. I don’t think anyone owes someone a hearing when they can’t be civil about it, and I’m not here to defend that kind of thing. They deserve to be turned off. But asking them to leave… we’re not about that. It’s kind of like a prattling little sister. There is nothing wrong with wishing she’d shut up or asking her to be quiet once you’ve heard enough verses, but as much as you might fantasize, it isn’t okay to yell, “YOU LITTLE BRAT!! SHUT UP OR GET OUT!!!”
That’s all I’m saying.
I hear you. Still, I think the Vatican has said very clearly that (1) the question is answered and (2) those who still have questions may refer to section (1). They’ve been pretty patient, and I think that is wise. What they haven’t done is say to those who are keeping within the rules of questioning: “You may cut out the questions, or there’s the door.”
Of course they are going to keep asking and asking. We women had to keep asking and asking for those things we really did deserve that we were denied, like the chance to be a doctor or a firefighter or to play sports in high school. I’m not saying rights activists were always right: there were those that thought that having the right to opportunity was the same as having a right to participate regardless of merit. But still… getting a “no” didn’t mean we were getting a just response from the big wide world. Thank goodness there were women out there who wouldn’t take “no” for an answer.
When you teach a child that they won’t get justice unless they fight for it, they get into that habit of fighting for what is right. “No” hasn’t always meant “no, you are being treated fairly”. Sometimes, “no” has meant “not now, I don’t feel like it” or “no, because fair is what I say fair is.” That there is still some backlash from that kind of injustice is to be expected, don’t you think?
Those things are hard to read, particularly when they are disrespectful. I don’t think anyone owes someone a hearing when they can’t be civil about it, and I’m not here to defend that kind of thing. They deserve to be turned off. But asking them to leave… we’re not about that. It’s kind of like a prattling little sister. There is nothing wrong with wishing she’d shut up or asking her to be quiet once you’ve heard enough verses, but as much as you might fantasize, it isn’t okay to yell, “YOU LITTLE BRAT!! SHUT UP OR GET OUT!!!”
That’s all I’m saying.
L
Lisa_N
Guest
Sure I agree that it really takes a lot before the Vatican shows someone the door and that is certainly following Jesus’ example. After all he did give Peter the Keys to the Kingdom, in spite of his human failings.
The difference though is what great evil are you trying to overcome by demanding certain rights? Certainly something like slavery or racism or not allowing women to own property are pretty clear evils. I don’t see denying women the priesthood as an evil. If women were denied ANY role in the church then I would definitely understand their continuing banter. And ironically a number of the women writers claim that our sex is prevented from participating in any meaninful way which may come as a surprise to Mother Teresa or St Catherine or Mary for that matter.
I think you are right, the dissenters think that if they just keep it up that the Vatican will change its collective mind, that “no” means, talk to me later. Again though I ask what great evil they are trying to overcome with their demands?
And I agree, it’s not when in doubt, throw them out…But I do wonder at the lack of some kind of discipline or censure. I think people like Sr. Joan stir up trouble unnecessarily, hoping to rally the troops so they get what THEY want, not what is necessarily best for the church.
This reminds me of a hearing I recently attended where the issue was visitation between young girls and their convicted child molestor father who will be out of jail in a few years. The attorneys for dad spoke with conviction about the children “needing a relationship with their father” and while I could see the reason dad wanted to know the girls, the attorney never bothered to mention how the GIRLS would benefit by a relationship with dad. Sometimes when you are crusading for a cause you need to get beyond “WIFM” What’s in it for ME!" I just don’t think these dissident women have made that next step.
Lisa N
B
bones_IV
Guest
They want dialogue? Pope John Paul II issued ordinatio sacerdotalis an apostolic letter which made it clear no women ordination and married priesthood. That was an infallible statement by John Paul II. For these 13 women, no that wasn’t good enough. They want dialogue because John Paul II gave them an answer and they weren’t satisfied with it. Their definition of dialogue seems to be, “we are going to keep fighting until the Vatican changes its position.” They do this so their liberal agenda can be satisfied. These 13 women are destined to be deeply dissapointed. The protestantization of the Catholic Church in America is alive and well. I have the feeling as a result there will be a huge schism and a great big one. The worst is yet to come.
B
BLB_Oregon
Guest
Lisa N:
I think we’re on the same page. Were we asked by the Holy Father, we wouldn’t have problems with the Vatican not booting the questioners. Our problem is with our sisters and brothers who sometimes act as if listening only means that other people listen to them and that if you aren’t a priest, you’re a second-class citizen. The vast majority of us, men and women alike, will never be priests. So we’re all chopped liver? Now that’s a crowd that should *not *be in charge!
E
estesbob
Guest
Well lets see what it is these women want:
Diana Hayes
Theologian, author (2001):
"I would like to invite you to openness: one receptive of the perspectives of others, especially those unlike yourself, whether by race or ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, class or language. "
So Diana wants the Church to change 2000 years of teaching on Homosexual behavior. as a theologian you would think she would give us her rationale on what new revelations, available only to those who live now, makes this change necessary. I mean, Diana, are you really saying that for 2,000 years the Lord allowed false teaching in his Church???
Dolores Curran
Author (1996):
"4. That the prevailing church image of women as temptresses, manipulators, and troublemakers is obsolete—that today’s women find the world open to them and the church closed. "
One wonders what Church this woman belongs to? Looks like she cut and pasted this out of some feminist manifesto
Jeanette Rodriguez-Holguin
Theologian, author (2000):
"I am very concerned about the rights of the poor, the marginalized, and women. My hope is that you will resurrect the spirit of the Second Vatican Council, a spiritual renewal that encouraged the full participation of all members in the church, including women. "
Whenever someone mentions the “spirit of vatican II” you can be assured of two things:
1. They want to make radical changes to the Church
2. The have never read the documents produced by Vatican II
Elisabeth Schüssler-Fiorenza
Theologian, author (1987):
I urge you to lead the church out of its bondage and captivity to imperial powers and oppressive traditions. We pray to Divine Wisdom that she will grant you the grace and freedom to articulate a new vision of Catholic identity with integrity and courage.
*WOW!!! Not only should be women Priests-God is a woman? I gues s that old nonsnese about Jesus being perfect is wrong-after all he kept refering to God as his father. *
Sister Elizabeth Johnson, C.S.J.
Theologian, author (1994):
There is a piece of pressing, unfinished business that needs your attention. When John Paul II first visited this country in 1979, Sister Theresa Kane asked him to “listen to the cries of women for full participation in the ministries of the church.”
Surpirse Surprise-another feminist who thinks women sould be priiest. But as with the others she never gives a reason for this change other than its “mean” not to let women be priests.
I think all these women have missed the point-the Church has already embraced the radical changes they want-I guess thier problem is the Church that has done this is the Episcopal Church-which has had its membership fall 40% since it embraced the ideas these women suggest.
The sad part is that the feminism of these supposed women of faith have so distorted their spirituality that all they can focus on is the Church’s refucal to embrace their political views,
Diana Hayes
Theologian, author (2001):
"I would like to invite you to openness: one receptive of the perspectives of others, especially those unlike yourself, whether by race or ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, class or language. "
So Diana wants the Church to change 2000 years of teaching on Homosexual behavior. as a theologian you would think she would give us her rationale on what new revelations, available only to those who live now, makes this change necessary. I mean, Diana, are you really saying that for 2,000 years the Lord allowed false teaching in his Church???
Dolores Curran
Author (1996):
"4. That the prevailing church image of women as temptresses, manipulators, and troublemakers is obsolete—that today’s women find the world open to them and the church closed. "
One wonders what Church this woman belongs to? Looks like she cut and pasted this out of some feminist manifesto
- That these women are rearing the sons who do not want to be part of the church’s outdated discrimination against women—hence, the lack of vocations.
Jeanette Rodriguez-Holguin
Theologian, author (2000):
"I am very concerned about the rights of the poor, the marginalized, and women. My hope is that you will resurrect the spirit of the Second Vatican Council, a spiritual renewal that encouraged the full participation of all members in the church, including women. "
Whenever someone mentions the “spirit of vatican II” you can be assured of two things:
1. They want to make radical changes to the Church
2. The have never read the documents produced by Vatican II
Elisabeth Schüssler-Fiorenza
Theologian, author (1987):
I urge you to lead the church out of its bondage and captivity to imperial powers and oppressive traditions. We pray to Divine Wisdom that she will grant you the grace and freedom to articulate a new vision of Catholic identity with integrity and courage.
*WOW!!! Not only should be women Priests-God is a woman? I gues s that old nonsnese about Jesus being perfect is wrong-after all he kept refering to God as his father. *
Sister Elizabeth Johnson, C.S.J.
Theologian, author (1994):
There is a piece of pressing, unfinished business that needs your attention. When John Paul II first visited this country in 1979, Sister Theresa Kane asked him to “listen to the cries of women for full participation in the ministries of the church.”
Surpirse Surprise-another feminist who thinks women sould be priiest. But as with the others she never gives a reason for this change other than its “mean” not to let women be priests.
I think all these women have missed the point-the Church has already embraced the radical changes they want-I guess thier problem is the Church that has done this is the Episcopal Church-which has had its membership fall 40% since it embraced the ideas these women suggest.
The sad part is that the feminism of these supposed women of faith have so distorted their spirituality that all they can focus on is the Church’s refucal to embrace their political views,
W
WanderAimlessly
Guest
From what I have seen so far, it looks like Pope Benedict will try to reign in the rogue religious. What their reaction will be remains to be seen.
PF
PF
C
Cubsfan
Guest
Several years back the Chicago Tribune wrote an article about a former Catholic Nun who had become an Anglican Priestess. The article gave her thoughts on why she made her move but the most glaring point she made was that she remembers teaching school on Wednesday afternoon and seeing the priests loading their golf clubs in their car to go golfing.
It struck me how incredibly shallow this person was. Are these people ever happy with who they are?
It struck me how incredibly shallow this person was. Are these people ever happy with who they are?
V
Veritas
Guest
I’d rather not see any of it, but my morbid curiosity may get the better of me. Sorta like looking at a car wreck.
J
Jayson
Guest
"4. That these women are rearing the sons who do not want to be part of the church’s outdated discrimination against women—hence, the lack of vocations. "
One of the reasons that there is a lack of vocations because people like these women do not obey Peter and are rubbing salt in the wounds of the body of Christ. It is minds such as these that took advantage of Vatican II and misinterpreted it and weakened the church. Hopefully Benedict will help to correct many of the errors of the past and help to bring about the true intent of the council.
There are a lot of young people out there that have abandoned the church because they fail to see the sacred when they go to church. Many of us are lucky to live in an area with a good priest and a good bishop, but there are other areas where people who have lost their faith are still running the show and just see their vocation as a job and not as something sacred.
One of the reasons that there is a lack of vocations because people like these women do not obey Peter and are rubbing salt in the wounds of the body of Christ. It is minds such as these that took advantage of Vatican II and misinterpreted it and weakened the church. Hopefully Benedict will help to correct many of the errors of the past and help to bring about the true intent of the council.
There are a lot of young people out there that have abandoned the church because they fail to see the sacred when they go to church. Many of us are lucky to live in an area with a good priest and a good bishop, but there are other areas where people who have lost their faith are still running the show and just see their vocation as a job and not as something sacred.
T
TeriGator
Guest
Frankly, these women have already proven that they do not belive in the Catholic Church, and do not belong to it. If you read “Ungodly Rage”, or spent some time reading the books, essays, and speeches these women have made, you would see that they are intent on recreating the Church in their own image. One that includes goddess-worship, and wiccan and neo-pagan rituals, and one that has absolutely no resemblance to what has come down to us from the apostles.
They’ve had plenty of time to have a true dialogue with Rome, but they prefer to put their fingers in their ears while yelling even louder about “I WANT…” After 3 or 4 decades of hearing this infantile and utterly self-centered ranting, I think the Church would be well justified in asking these women to just give up and get out.
J
Joan_M
Guest
- Status