13 Year Old Stoning victim 'begged for mercy'

[ralphinal]

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Salaam/peace

What The Bible Says

Capital Punishment

…Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” …There is a question of the authorship and date of the story.

“This passage is not found in any of the important early Greek textual witnesses of Eastern provenance (e.g., in neither Bodmer papyrus); nor is it found in OS [Old Syriac] or the Coptic. .

geocities.com/a_christian…ive/john8.html

I tried your link, and it said that the page was not available. Got any other proof?

 

[jimmy]

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Salaam/peace

but Moses (p) got those laws from Jesus (p) , right ?

First of all, it sounds like you confuse the Trinity to be some form of modalism. That is not the case.

That said, the law of Moses is for a specific time, place and people. The scripture is an account of the history of salvation and the revelation of God. It happened in stages and is completed in the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The law had its purpose but it was only transitory.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Dear Oscarthecat,

Sorry. I don’t see anything in the quote that even approximates your interpretation. What I see is that if a Muslim makes friends with a non-believer, he/she should do so cautiously. In other words, the text is simply stating that Muslims should choose their non-believer friends WISELY.

Blessings,
Marduk

I understand why you might interpret it that way-in fact, I would even go so far as to agree that your interpretation is the most reasonable.

But, with all due respect, the personal opinions of two Christians are irrelevant to islamic hermeneutics. It doesn’t matter how we, as Christians, interpret the Quran- what matters is how Muslims interpret it, because they believe they are morally bound to it.

Therefore, regardless of what you see in that passage, the passages I cited are the basis for the Muslim concepts of taqiyya and kitman. They are understood by Muslims as more than simply exercising caution- instead, many muslim leaders have used these verses to teach the principle of lying to non-muslims when necessary to save life, honor, or property. Needless to say, those 3 conditions can be bent to fit just about any reason or circumstance you can imagine.

Here are a few examples of this teaching from Muslim leaders:

"In Islamic terminology it (taqiyya) means “to save life, honour. or property (either one’s own or of other be lievers) by hiding one’s belief or religion”. -Shah Abdu 'l‑Aziz Dehlawi, Tuhfa‑e‑Ithna‑'ashariyah, ch. 1, p. 368.

"“It means that Allah bas permitted in this situation (when one is afraid of ahem) to show their friendship and one’s inclination towards them `with tongue’ but not with intention of heart.” - as‑Sayid ar‑Radi, Tafsir Haqa’iqu 't‑ta’wil, vol. 5, p. 74.

“by uttering a few false words against Islam you will save your life as well as your faith; and by not ut tering those words your life will come to its end and with it will vanish all chances of Islamic services which you could have rendered had you been alive. Allah, there fore, has allowed you to save your life by uttering a few false words against Islam.”

The above quotes were found here,
al-islam.org/taqiyah/ ,
a muslim apologists site.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

…

…"by uttering a few false words against Islam you will save your life as well as your faith.

how this opinion supports your earlier accusation that Islam encourages Muslims to tell lies to non-Muslims ?

I am sure , if a Christians lies to a terrorist that s/he is not an American or Brit or even s/he is a not a Christian , Jesus (p) won’t be angry & won’t punish him/her.

 

[dolphinlove]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

how this opinion supports your earlier accusation that Islam encourages Muslims to tell lies to non-Muslims ?

I am sure , if a Christians lies to a terrorist that s/he is not an American or Brit or even s/he is a not a Christian , Jesus (p) won’t be angry & won’t punish him/her.

Lying in islam

Sahih MuslimBook 032, Number 6303:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu’ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).

What makes me laugh about this is when muslims say they are not allowed to lie, but clearly, in the hadith, you are allowed to lie.
Yes, i can hear it now, im going to get one of the muslims on here saying lying is forbidden in islam, well if lying is forbidden, why does this hadith allow it then?
You are allowed to either lie or not, there is no shades of gray here, and in islam, lying IS allowed.

As for lying in Christianity, it is not allowed, it is a sin, under any circumstances.

So, in islam, are you also allowed to lie up in heaven?

And if i was caught by a terrorist, i will say here now, i will never deny the divinity of Jesus, even if im scared to death, i know one day i will have to face Jesus and i want to look at him knowing i will never deny him. I pray to him that i dont have to undergo that test, but if i did, i would pray for strength.

We have a wonderful saint called St Max Kolbe. He was a Catholic priest put into auschwitz death camp. He stepped in for another man to give his life for that man. Max Kolbe led them in prayer to give them strength, he didnt give up, he kept praying, never denying Jesus for one moment. They prayed the rosary, even when he had no strength left from the hunger, he whispered his prayers.
He kept everyone praying with him, his strength gave them strength.
This is truly a man of God, he didnt have to lie, he only ever told the truth, he never denied Jesus, this man was a true martyr.

 

[Oscarthecat]

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Salaam/peace

how this opinion supports your earlier accusation that Islam encourages Muslims to tell lies to non-Muslims ?

I am sure , if a Christians lies to a terrorist that s/he is not an American or Brit or even s/he is a not a Christian , Jesus (p) won’t be angry & won’t punish him/her.

Well, I have not personally been faced with martyrdom, but from what I know of the Christian martyrs, they refused to renounce their faith out of love of God, not out of fear of divine anger or punishment.

That makes me wonder why, if Muslims claim to love Allah above all else, they would even want to deny their faith?

 

[swariffin]

Because he was put in a situation where if he said no , he would disobey Moses’s laws and If he said yes, he would be inconsistent with his message of love and forgiveness,

So, you agree that Jesus’ message is love and forgiveness?

 

[swariffin]

“This passage is not found in any of the important early Greek textual witnesses of Eastern provenance (e.g., in neither Bodmer papyrus); nor is it found in OS [Old Syriac] or the Coptic. .

geocities.com/a_christian…ive/john8.html

If that so, perhaps you should research that those experts of yours get supported by the majority of other experts in the same field. Perhaps also in the scientific journal mentioning their works indeed accepted by other scientist. An opinion of a small group of scientist does not mean the whole community of scientist agree. In fact, in the world of scientist, one can make any claim he/she wants. But, it will take time his/her theory is considered correct. For example, Einstein theory is not generally accepted the moment it is published in the scientist community. So, it is to the earlier theory that the latest must be tested against. No new theory automatically supersedes the earlier.