13 yr olds need your help defending Christianity to atheist peers

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What is the most simple, easy-to-understand way to address these questions that are being discussed by a group of 13 year olds? Some of the kids are atheists, others are protestant and Catholic Christians. The Christian kids are having a hard time defending their position.
  1. Why does God allow innocent children to be abused?
  2. Why does He allow them to suffer?
  3. Why does He allow the devil to possess innocent people, especially children?
  4. We know that He gives us free will, and that bad things are caused by sin, but why does He allow other people’s sins and free will hurt an innocent child? Why doesn’t He protect them - they didn’t choose to sin - it was others who sinned. They should be the ones suffering for their own sins.
Help!!!
 
What is the most simple, easy-to-understand way to address these questions that are being discussed by a group of 13 year olds? Some of the kids are atheists, others are protestant and Catholic Christians. The Christian kids are having a hard time defending their position.
  1. Why does God allow innocent children to be abused?
  2. Why does He allow them to suffer?
  3. Why does He allow the devil to possess innocent people, especially children?
  4. We know that He gives us free will, and that bad things are caused by sin, but why does He allow other people’s sins and free will hurt an innocent child? Why doesn’t He protect them - they didn’t choose to sin - it was others who sinned. They should be the ones suffering for their own sins.
Help!!!
Just because God allows suffering doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. The fact that innocents suffer is all the more reason why we need God in our lives to get us through difficult times. As for why God allows this to take place, I think it is just a consequence of free will. We will have eternity to exist without suffering, this world is only temporary.
 
1st of all, I would ask them : do you know everything? Do you know half of everything, obviously not, then reply is there a possiblitiy God could exist in the half you do not know?

But why does God allow for Good things to happen to bad people.

If you came to my house and you said " I’m hungry" and I said, “O.k I got something just for you a cup of flower”

After eating that you said “Groose” and you said again " I’m hungry" and I said, “O.k I got something just for you a cup of crisco”

After eating that you said “Groose” and you said again " I’m hungry" and I said, “O.k I got something just for you a table spoon of salt lean back”

What if you came into my house and said “I’m hungry” and I said “O.k Heres a bisqut”

Although the individual ingredeints taste terrible, the final product is being cooked by the master chef 👍
 
St. Thomas Aquinas says that the presence of evil in the world, far from making us think that there is no God, should convince us that there must be a God, because evil is the corruption and radical misuse of good and therefore presupposes a supreme good. His full argument is rather lengthy, but compelling.

As for why God allows evil is persist, we will not completely understand in this life, but we can say at least this much:

First, free will is a great good and God will not violate our free will - even if we are using it to do evil. We have to understand that everything depends on free will. Without free will, we would not be able to love God or share freely in His divine life.

Second, God is able to bring greater good out of evil. How He does this may be hidden from us, but we know that it is true.

Finally, we have to remember that God became a human being in order to suffer and die, to make reparation for all these evils and to heal us from them. He was innocent and yet He suffered terribly. The omnipotent God could have chosen some other way of healing fallen humanity, some grand way, could have manifested His glory, or rained fire on all the wicked people, or any number of things; instead He chose to take on a body of flesh that could suffer and a soul that could be tempted, and to undergo mockery and pain. Suffering, especially the suffering of children, is one of those things in life that we cannot fully understand, but the suffering of the innocent Jesus is a mystery that points us towards the answer.

I hope this is helpful. God bless all these children - the Christians and the atheists too - for grappling with these very important and difficult questions. Young atheists who really care about these questions (if they do care and are not simply arguing for the sake of arguing) will very likely find Jesus sooner or later. Pray for them.
 
*QUOTE=Annemariels;6613807]What is the most simple, easy-to-understand way to address these questions that are being discussed by a group of 13 year olds? Some of the kids are atheists, others are protestant and Catholic Christians. The Christian kids are having a hard time defending their position.
  1. Why does God allow innocent children to be abused?
  2. Why does He allow them to suffer?
  3. Why does He allow the devil to possess innocent people, especially children?
  4. We know that He gives us free will, and that bad things are caused by sin, but why does He allow other people’s sins and free will hurt an innocent child? Why doesn’t He protect them - they didn’t choose to sin - it was others who sinned. They should be the ones suffering for their own sins.
Help!!!*

It sounds like they know the answer to 1) and 2), which is that God gave us free will.

As to 3) the devil does not “possess innocent people.” In order for possession to occur, the inidividual has to allow Satan in. My guess is that these kids are using those terms rather casually and basing that casual use on popular culture. If they have an interest other than titillation (which should be avoided), you’d need to know the specifics to address their concerns.

The tough question is 4). Why doesn’t God protect us from others’ sins? My first thought is to go to the Catechism, which says that sin doesn’t just harm the person doing it and relationship with God, but harms others. But that doesn’t answer why.

One thought is that if God protected us and others from the consequences of our actions, that wouldn’t really be free will.

Another thought is to begin the discussion about the distinction between unnecessary suffering and redemptive suffering. Unnecessary suffering from original sin and and importance to stop it, or work towards stopping it.

A third thought is God’s ideal will and His permissive will, what He permits (the consequences of our actions) that are not in His ideal will.

Hope that helps.
 
  1. We know that He gives us free will, and that bad things are caused by sin, but why does He allow other people’s sins and free will hurt an innocent child? Why doesn’t He protect them - they didn’t choose to sin - it was others who sinned. They should be the ones suffering for their own sins.
This is a hard thing, and I can understand the atheist (agnostic?) children’s concerns. But free will is meaningless unless the natural consequences are allowed to flow from the actions. Without that, you are not truly free.

Free will is the most beautiful and terrible of the gifts that God has given us. It is true that it allows us to perform terrible sins, like that of abusing a child. But without it, we would be unable to perform great acts of virtue and himility, like Bl. Teresa of Calcutta. If all suffering for sins was experienced by the person committing them, then persumably, all of the good results of a virtuous act would have to be experienced by the person performing them as well. Much of the pain, but almost all of the beauty would be removed from life. If we cannot sin out of love of self, we cannot be virtuous out of love of God, either, and that is the point of life. If all our sins rebounded on ourselves invariably, even we ourselves might not know whether we were behaving well out of a desire to behave well, or a desire to avoid punishment.

Besides that, the question that the children are asking indicates a fully materialist view. In fact, all of the justice that they want is going to happen after death. The One who judges souls knows all of the suffering of every person. He even knows the sufferings of the child abusers, who are frequently former victims. He alone knows how much our choices were truly made by free will, and how much they were made by physical and psychological causes over which we have no control.

I know it sounds like “it’ll all work out when you are dead,” which I admit appears to be a cop out. But if you step back and look at it, life isn’t merely a series of discrete acts, each one of which should deserve praise or censure. Life is a single, organic whole–a person living one unified existence through time. The only way appropriate judgement can be made about that single thing is as a whole, which can only happen after death, when it is complete.

God treats us with respect, and we have to endeavor to earn at least some of it. He shows us that respect by allowing us to make decisions that have consequences–not only temporal consequences that we can see, but also eternal consequences. If we are not free to choose badly, we are not free. If we are not free, then life is pointless. But as it is, even in the strictest prison, we can choose our own actions freely, and freely choose to accept the consequences. I cannot choose whether I will be mugged on the way home from work, but I can choose whether I forgive the mugger and whether I curse or praise God afterwards. This is a terrible responsibility, and I think if we truly thought about it very often, we might be afraid to do anything. Instead, we look on our ability to choose freely not as an incredible responsibility and gift, but as a matter of course–something that belongs to us by right (a right which, however, the children are proposing to take away from child abusers). But if you picture the world where that was taken away, you can see how different it would be.

Imagine a situation where you have just cheated on a test, and you find yourself, through no wish of your own, raising your hand at the end of the test and confessing your cheating. It would feel like you were watching someone else moving your body and mouth. But unless this happens, innocent people (your classmates who did not cheat) will be at an unfair disadvantage. You may affect the curve with your cheating, and even cause them to get worse grades than they would if you were honest. Why should they suffer for your sin? Unless you are treated like a puppet, this will happen, as a natural consequence of your cheating.

God permits this. But you must see that if He permits this, He must also permit much more terrible sins to work the same way? Unless you want God to miraculously intervene as soon as a sin reaches a certain level (which persumably you get to decide), but not to intervene in smaller sins that you don’t consider as important? Where is that line to be? Child abuse, yes, presumably murder, what about rape? What about assault, where permanent physical damage may result? Where is the demarcation line between sins that are small enough that free will can be allowed to operate, and those that are big enough that it should be taken away?

In fact, God, who has a much better idea about what is fair or not than we can have, has determined that there is only one person on Earth (at any one time) whose free will is interfered with in any way, and that is the Pope. The Pope is not free to teach errors on faith or morals definitively, although he is free to sin, to teach errors on subjects other than faith and morals, and to speak or write errors in faith and morals in his private capacity as a man. This is the curtailment of freedom that he accepts when he becomes Pope, and God only allows it so that He can fulfill His promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, so that His body will always remain on the right path. Even if ALL of the members wander onto the wrong path at the same time, the teachings of the Church will still be there, when their children or grandchildren wish to know Truth. But by the extremely limited scope of the exception, you can see the importance of the rule.

I don’t know how much this would help 13-year-olds. It has been a long time since I was one, and frankly we didn’t discuss particularly deep issues when I was that age. But I hope some of it helps a little.

–Jen
 
If I may give a short (name removed by moderator)ut: “leave them alone!”. Don’t try any arguments. Children are not stupid, and they can see through your answers. And whether you know it, or not, none of your answers are above “explaining away” the unexplainable. It is not a coincidence that these questions have never been answered in a satisfactory manner. Best tell your child: “we don’t know” and leave it at that. Trying to make up lousy arguments will probably backfire, because the other children will rip your answers into shreds. This is an advice of good will, I am not interested in talking about your proposed answers.
 
If I may give a short (name removed by moderator)ut: “leave them alone!”. Don’t try any arguments. Children are not stupid, and they can see through your answers. And whether you know it, or not, none of your answers are above “explaining away” the unexplainable. It is not a coincidence that these questions have never been answered in a satisfactory manner. Best tell your child: “we don’t know” and leave it at that. Trying to make up lousy arguments will probably backfire, because the other children will rip your answers into shreds. This is an advice of good will, I am not interested in talking about your proposed answers.
I will not leave people alone who are athiest’s because adults like you have raised them. Explain the unexplainable? It has already been explained by Jesus of Nazereth, I think the facts are already out on the table already, atheism is about **you **the God, and you feel guilty about your own poor descsion so bringing others into your own failure eases over the pain you feel with in.

I will not leave people alone because I see the bus that is coming and pull them out of the way.
children will rip your answers into shreds
A child will only rip your answer into “shreds” if your simply a moron. Your statement sounds like one spoken from experiance. The concept of a child ripping your argument to shreds is truly ridiculous.
 
I will not leave people alone who are athiest’s because adults like you have raised them. Explain the unexplainable? It has already been explained by Jesus of Nazereth, I think the facts are already out on the table already, atheism is about **you **the God, and you feel guilty about your own poor descsion so bringing others into your own failure eases over the pain you feel with in.
Whatever…
A child will only rip your answer into “shreds” if your simply a moron.
You said it, not I (and spiced it with lousy grammar).
 
If I may give a short (name removed by moderator)ut: “leave them alone!”. Don’t try any arguments. Children are not stupid, and they can see through your answers. And whether you know it, or not, none of your answers are above “explaining away” the unexplainable. It is not a coincidence that these questions have never been answered in a satisfactory manner. Best tell your child: “we don’t know” and leave it at that. Trying to make up lousy arguments will probably backfire, because the other children will rip your answers into shreds. This is an advice of good will, I am not interested in talking about your proposed answers.
I think this is too subjective to just say “There is no satisfactory answer.” There is not an answer that’s satisfactory to everyone, but that doesn’t mean that the answers given in this thread don’t satisfy the people giving them, and they may well satisfy the religious children in question (even when held up to Atheists’ scrutiny, and even assuming that the children and those giving the answers are perfectly intelligent and logical). Nor do I think that subjective statements such as calling the arguments here “lousy arguments” are in the spirit of offering balanced advice. It is up to the individual to look at the arguments and decide whether they are convincing or unsound, and they do not need you to tell them as much by dismissing the arguments as “lousy” as though that is an objective statement that everyone will agree upon. If some will agree with you, they will not need to be told the argument is “lousy” in order to do so. If some will not agree with you, the realization that you called the argument (which they found sound) “lousy” will only lessen your credibility in their eyes.

I do doubt that these answers will satisfy the Atheist children, because it is very rare that anyone on either side of the Atheist vs. Religion related questions will end up satisfied with the answer someone gives from the other side if it gives the other side any merit it didn’t appear (to the dissenter, whichever side he is on) to have previously. However, I hardly would say that the Atheist children will “rip your answers into shreds” because I have yet to see an Atheist adult do that in an objective, universally agreed upon fashion. The Atheist children can only prove what I’ve said just now: That there is no answer that’s satisfactory to everyone. They can raise a bunch of questions, and prove that there will always be “what about this detail” type questions ad infinitum. Thus they can prove that trying to convince others (as opposed to just offering an explanation that they are free to reject or accept) is a waste of time. But that hardly constitutes ripping an answer into shreds. They can even mock the answers as though they themselves, remaining unconvinced, are the sole standard by which to judge intelligence and logic, as though surely anyone who disagrees with them is unintelligent and illogical. But such immaturity would still fail to genuinely and objectively “rip an answer to shreds”.

This goes beyond this thread, as I see this everywhere and frequently. I don’t think this is specifically an Atheist thing, and I am concerned at how many people (on these forums and elsewhere, both religious and Atheists) think that just because they offer a rebuttal satisfactory to themselves they have successfully “ripped” the opposing argument “to shreds”. It’s that sentiment that seems to be expressed in the confidence that the Atheist children would be capable of doing this. It seems to imply some sort of distrust in the intellectual capacity or honesty of anyone who disagrees with one’s own position: “If something convinces me or doesn’t convince me, then it must convince or not convince everyone else in the same way, and those who say it doesn’t are either stupid or lying.” Only if you approach the Atheist children’s possible rebuttals with such or similar bias could those rebuttals be thought of as ripping the religious children’s answers to shreds in any objective fashion.

I believe you when you say your advice is of good will, but it presumes too much when you call such answers “lousy” as though everyone, including the religious children, will agree with you unless they’re simply stupid. That is a type of presumption I would like to see less and less, but sadly see more and more from people of all beliefs and persuasions, including my own.

To the OP, without adding my own argument or answer, I do believe that the children in question should be cautioned that whatever answers may be given are not to everyone’s satisfaction, so they should be prepared to have the Atheists reject their argument without that meaning the argument is objectively invalid or wrong. And indeed, it is only honesty, in certain circumstances, to say “We don’t know.” However, this can be followed up with possible explanations (especially if hinted at by saints and doctors, Scripture or Tradition) and the realization that just because not everyone is satisfied with those explanations doesn’t make the explanations universally unsatisfactory. Also make sure that the children have no illusions about successfully convincing the Atheists and are only embarking on this to offer an answer when asked (until/unless they realize that these particular Atheists are the type who will always have “one more objection”, whereupon they should stop wasting the time of both sides). Prepare your children with such precautions before you proceed to give them any answers, lest they get disillusioned due to thinking this would be simple and clear-cut. But don’t imply to these children that, just because an Atheist (or anyone else who argues with them) rejects an argument and offers an enthusiastic rebuttal, the argument was necessarily a lousy one.

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
To the OP, without adding my own argument or answer, I do believe that the children in question should be cautioned that whatever answers may be given are not to everyone’s satisfaction, so they should be prepared to have the Atheists reject their argument without that meaning the argument is objectively invalid or wrong.
Great post overall, thanks!

I might add to the above, a reminder to tell the Christian children that NOBODY will accept any arguments in favor of Christianity without grace. Many highly intelligent philosophers believe that it is possible to prove the existence of God from a purely philosophical standpoint (rather than using Revelation at all), but many others disagree. Anyway, if someone, even a child, has closed their heart to the calling of His voice, arguments will not change their position. So I suggest that, prior to engaging anyone in argument, the Christian children should pray that they themselves will be speaking the truth in love, and also that the hearts of the others will be open to hearing it. (However, because of free will, the atheist children may have their hearts closed anyway!)

However, I do think it is very important for them to at least present their argument (possibly after reading KindredSoul’s whole post!). Both the Christian and the atheist children need to know that the position is defensible. If the atheists choose not to accept the explanation because they don’t like it, that’s unfortunate, but it’s even more important (in this context) for the Christian children to be in no doubt that the position can be defended. I grew up (and left the Church for several years) partly because I believed that some of the positions of the Church had never been defeded, could never be defended, and weren’t in fact believed by anyone. I now see my error, but no doubt my life would have been a lot happier if I’d seen it when I was 13. 🙂
…the realization that just because not everyone is satisfied with those explanations doesn’t make the explanations universally unsatisfactory.
I would add to this that just because not everyone is satisfied with the explanations doesn’t mean, more importantly, that they aren’t true. And also of course, just because we can’t explain it, doesn’t mean there isn’t an explanation. I don’t think (for example) that there is a universally accepted theory explaining the causes of gravity, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t one.

–Jen

P.S. I recently got a copy of Aquinas’ Shorter Summa, so if I come across anything relevant there, I’ll let you know.
 
Well, I thank everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut even though I am still scratching my head trying to figure out how to guide my child when those conversations come up again at school.

She has been targeted by a couple of young boys who claim they are atheists, and one or two of her protestant friends have been standing by her side. It’s very strange. I have three older kids who graduated from the same school system within the last eight years or so, and we never ever had this kind of thing happen. It is a small district with a very heavy Christian population. Where are the atheists coming from??? And why are they lurking around the Catholics? I noticed that there are a lot of them on the Christianity forum at amazon.com - they hang around stirring up trouble. Why can’t they just believe what they believe and leave us and our kids alone? I’d like to see them discuss their own non-beliefs with each other on their own forums and leave us alone.
 
Great post overall, thanks!



I would add to this that just because not everyone is satisfied with the explanations doesn’t mean, more importantly, that they aren’t true. And also of course, just because we can’t explain it, doesn’t mean there isn’t an explanation. I don’t think (for example) that there is a universally accepted theory explaining the causes of gravity, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t one.

–Jen

P.S. I recently got a copy of Aquinas’ Shorter Summa, so if I come across anything relevant there, I’ll let you know.
Thanks, and I agree with your addition wholeheartedly, especially the part about “just because we can’t explain it, doesn’t mean there isn’t an explanation”! Hopefully anyone who agrees with my post will also pay close attention to your important addition, since my words are much better understood in context of what you’ve added to them. Thank you. 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
You said it, not I (and spiced it with lousy grammar).

Purely for the sake that taking the time to edit and make careful sure that my internet posting is syntactically correct is far to tedious for someone who has much to do in there day. Speaking in a psuedovernacular is the norm on internet forums. Therefore calling someone out on their forum grammar is the only feasible remark one can make to insult someone else. Wicked job dudet 👍!

Following up on my last statement. I truly have no care what your thoughts are, I only hope to enlighten those who are on the fence about faith to see the fallacy in the atheist religon.
 
I think this is too subjective to just say “There is no satisfactory answer.” There is not an answer that’s satisfactory to everyone, but that doesn’t mean that the answers given in this thread don’t satisfy the people giving them, and they may well satisfy the religious children in question (even when held up to Atheists’ scrutiny, and even assuming that the children and those giving the answers are perfectly intelligent and logical).
Very true and well said (and I refer to your whole post here, even though I quoted only a small part of it).

Now, what is the reason for this? If something can be demonstrated in an objective fashion, then there is no need for the “grace” that revert-jen mentioned. There is no need to appeal to an authority, there is no need to refer to revelation. A few simple facts (and facts cannot be denied) and a “cold”, logical reasoning will be sufficient. It is a fact, that many believers understand the faulty nature of these arguments - so even they remain unconvinced about their validity.

As a matter of fact I checked the Cathecism about the question if “faith” or “grace” is needed to ascertain God’s existence (which is a somewhat different issue, I know). It simply said that one can know God’s existence through rational means alone, and then it stopped. I would have been very interested just what rational means it refers to. Alas, it was silent on the issue.

That is why I suggested to say: “we don’t know”. It is always an acceptable answer. (As for the adjective “lousy”, I did not direct that to the argument itself, only the grammar beings used.)
 
Where are the atheists coming from??? And why are they lurking around the Catholics? I noticed that there are a lot of them on the Christianity forum at amazon.com - they hang around stirring up trouble. Why can’t they just believe what they believe and leave us and our kids alone? I’d like to see them discuss their own non-beliefs with each other on their own forums and leave us alone.
Because they’re not interested in discussing their own non-beliefs. There’s a “militant atheism” pseudo-movement that’s only interested in poking in the eye of Christianity and especially Catholicism. To a large extent, it doesn’t matter what you say to them because they’re not interested in reasoned discussion anyway. (Despite ironically that many of them are scientists or otherwise consider themselves as people who base their life on reason. Yet on religion, they use anything *but *reason.)

What encounters with them accomplish is prompt the Christian to deepen his or her knowledge of Christianity/Catholicism and sharpen their discussion/debate skills.

My earlier response was sort of off the top of my head but after I wrote it, I remembered that Mother Angelica said it very well in her book Mother Angelica’s Answers Not Promises. She has a gift for taking very deep theological concepts and writing them so that your 13 year old would have no trouble reading it. Her non-Catholic Christian friends might not agree with every bit of the Catholic theology presented but it would serve as basis for discussion with them. (and good for them for sticking together with your 13 y/o)
 
Very true and well said (and I refer to your whole post here, even though I quoted only a small part of it).

As a matter of fact I checked the Cathecism about the question if “faith” or “grace” is needed to ascertain God’s existence (which is a somewhat different issue, I know). It simply said that one can know God’s existence through rational means alone, and then it stopped. I would have been very interested just what rational means it refers to. Alas, it was silent on the issue.

That is why I suggested to say: “we don’t know”.
R Daneel, well yes, except that we have been given the answers. That’s why we provide those answers when people ask questions.
What paragraph of the Catechism was that?
Have you read Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica? That would be a great place to start.
 
R Daneel, well yes, except that we have been given the answers. That’s why we provide those answers when people ask questions.
Well, you believe that you have answers. Which is not the same.
What paragraph of the Catechism was that?
Sorry, I did not bookmark it. I wish I had.
Have you read Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica? That would be a great place to start.
I am quite familiar with the Thomistic arguments. Many believers understand that they do not stand up to the scrutiny of rigorous reason - because, their line of reasoning is predicated on incorrect assumptions. In a nutshell, they assume that a property of the members of a set can be generalized automatically to the set, which contains the members. And that assumption is false. (For example: the concept of the causation cannot be defined for the universe - so the “first cause” argument is simply unsound.)
 
RD, part of me is disappointed that today is so full because this looks like an interesting discussion with you.
 
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