13 yr olds need your help defending Christianity to atheist peers

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God does not want any child to suffer or be abused in any way at all. He is a very tender, gentle, loving Father and he hates their suffering. God does not want anyone to suffer. Can God stop you hurting someone? He wants to love all of us. We have to let him. He never promised to stop evil. He did promise to be with us in the middle of our suffering and he came to prove it. Try him for yourself. “Jesus, help me” is all you need say to start you on the road to understanding. As for possession, well, few are possessed and we have to give ourselves to the devil, on purpose, for that to happen.

That’s what I would tell the children.

Blessings to all,
chariscath
What is the most simple, easy-to-understand way to address these questions that are being discussed by a group of 13 year olds? Some of the kids are atheists, others are protestant and Catholic Christians. The Christian kids are having a hard time defending their position.
  1. Why does God allow innocent children to be abused?
  2. Why does He allow them to suffer?
  3. Why does He allow the devil to possess innocent people, especially children?
  4. We know that He gives us free will, and that bad things are caused by sin, but why does He allow other people’s sins and free will hurt an innocent child? Why doesn’t He protect them - they didn’t choose to sin - it was others who sinned. They should be the ones suffering for their own sins.
Help!!!
 
God does not want any child to suffer or be abused in any way at all. He is a very tender, gentle, loving Father. God does not want anyone to suffer. Can God stop you hurting someone? He wants to love all of us. We have to let him. He never promised to stop evil. He did promise to be with us in the middle of our suffering and he came to prove it. Try him for yourself. “Jesus, help me” is all you need say to start you on the road to understanding. As for possession, well, few are possessed and we have to give ourselves to the devil, on purpose, for that to happen.

That’s what I would tell the children.
Blessings to all,
chariscath
 
But if you seriously intend to fight the battle between good and evil, do not keep sending these young soldiers into a fray wearing robes and wielding sticks, executing a battle plan devised by fat men in silk robes who haven’t had a new idea in their entire lives, against an army decked out in kevlar skivvies, carrying serious firepower, and directed by evil people with well-considered plans.
Wow, I disagree with almost every sentence in your post that isn’t strictly related to football. But you seem well meaning. However, the bit above is particularly troublesome.

We cannot fight evil by becoming evil. And fighting without even sticks against people who could wield huge armies and were quite inventive in the matter of torture is how we won the Roman empire. The odd thing is that you think the tactics of evil have changed. They haven’t. The same arguments that are being raised against the existence of God now, were being raised then. You think the “fat men in silk robes” haven’t had any new ideas? I don’t agree, and in any case they didn’t come up with the main battle plan, Christ did. But the forces of evil do not have any new ideas for sure. The sexualization of children that is happening now was to some extent happening then. The entertainment industry was pagan instead of materialist or pantheist, but many of the pagans were actually materialists, too. Human nature was the same then as it is now.

The problem with the fight against evil today is that too few people are fighting. The majority of people in the western world who should be fighting evil (Christians) are too often not doing it, caring too much for their own comfort (and entertainment–TV & movies, health clubs, iPods, computer games, etc.), and securing their own and their childrens’ future financial prosperity to allow much effort for fighting evil (and I emphatically include myself in that indictment). The answer for this is certainly not for us to give up the only thing (love of Christ) that might prick us out of our concentration on things of this Earth. To quote G. K. Chesterton, “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.”

In any case, if there is no God, then good and evil really are all relative, in which case I really have no idea what to fight, except based on my own personal opinion. If there is a God who has not revealed truths to us, there may be real good and evil but I have no way of being sure what they are, so I still don’t know what to fight. If I am too focused on my job (and so forth) to fight for what I believe in my heart is truth (that which God has revealed), I am certainly not going to do so based on my mere opinions, which I am not quite conceited enough to fight for in that way.
I would never, for instance, suggest that the solution to a vegeterian Hindu’s protein deficiency was to eat meat.
Ooooo! I know the answer to that one! Soybeans if you’re not allergic, and lentils (I believe the red ones are especially good).

Another really great post, thanks. (even if I did only respond to the most tangential part of it.) 🙂

–Jen
 
I probably can’t continue posting. This is exhausting. We utterly disagree on what one can or could or even should expect from the almighty creator of the universe if he exists with the traits we suppose he has.
It is not surprising that Jesus would be more likely to answer any request made of Him during His earthly sojourn, although even then He only answered the requests made of Him in person, a very small percentage, without a doubt, of all those in Israel, let alone the whole world; had he not done anything, how would we even begin to have a chance to believe specifically in Christianity?
  • yet it was supposed to be better for him to go and send his spirit
  • his believers were to do wonderful signs in his name, even to the point of being resistant to poison
  • Peter and Paul were able to heal others right after Jesus, which shows his doings extended into the future… yet Lourdes has 67 confirmed miracles since ~1864 out of 5,000,000 visitors per year
  • we have higher standards today and I cannot fathom how god would let us question such an old text with difficult inconsistencies without clearing the air for future generations.
For one, the Church does not believe that the Bible was literally dictated word for word, passage for passage from God’s mouth to the pens of mortals. There can be inconsistencies and, especially in the Old Testament, flawed ethics…
I realize this. However, read Dei Verbum or one of the early Leo’s. God inspired to be written exactly what he wanted written and no more. This is the official church teaching. This means there is nothing superfluous and nothing uninspired. Given that, I’m puzzled as to him inspiring:
  • stone non-virgins on their wedding night on their father’s door step
  • slaughter everything that breaths, even beasts, but keep the virgins
  • insects have four legs
God is changeless, correct? Yet we see clear changes. How is Jesus correcting the Father? Even if we are to read the OT in light of the NT… the point is that it was still inspired and must serve some purpose. What could that be in the examples above?
Warranted as in “Obviously modern Christians aren’t making this religion up and are basing it on the fact that something clearly happened, even if believers and unbelievers disagree about what?” Yes.
Yet this is obviously not obvious to many, like myself. I’m still searching, but far from obviously convinced.
Apologetics abounds in reasons why we believe. Those reasons aren’t irrefutable proof (that would destroy the need for faith) but they are a basis for believing, a basis for not thinking someone just made this religion up on the fly 2000 years ago.
Alas, I remain unconvinced. I find natural explanations superbly more adept to deal with explanations for miracles, Biblical inconsistencies, evil, unanswered prayer, why no one other than the anonymous gospel authors chose to note Jesus’ amazing miracles, birth place, parents’ names, etc.
That it is not good enough for you to risk putting faith in does not mean it shouldn’t count as evidence when plenty of people do in fact consider it worthy.
True. Though extremely frustrating. Do you even glimpse for a moment what I mean when I talk about this? If I were still a believer I would extremely disheartening. Even if you do believe that god desires faith above tangible proof that would help everyone believe in him, it is frustrating as a seeker to see all of these inferior/wrong/ridiculous religions attracting millions and even billions (Islam) of followers. You really do have to wonder about the human race when they can persist against such a clearly superior religion and instead believe:
  • that a man was given the word of god and rode off on a flying donkey (Islam)
  • that an angel hand-delivered golden plates which were translated from the Urim and Thummin (Mormonism)
  • we’re born again and there are animal/human gods (Hinduism)
  • we have alien souls that need to be purged (Scientology)
Anyway… do I think these are as convincing as Christianity? No. But talk to any of the followers and they will be as convinced as you that their religion is true. Don’t you find that at all frustrating and perplexing? Were I trying to evangelize (which I wish to in the future), I would be absolutely annoyed.

I continue to be baffled that god would care more about the idea of faith than to allow others to believe him more easily. Heck, since we believe we’re made in his image and likeness and supposedly he has written natural law on our hearts (a fundamental form of morality), it would be cake for him to even have provided an inkling that he is the true god. Instead, apparently, we have zero internal hints and just believe what our parents tell us for the most part (90-ish %).

To be continued…
 
Continued…
They may not display the same level of unconditional love for our God, clearly, or else they would be so willing to believe in Him (so as to love Him) that they would seize even on the slightest hope of His existence…
Turn this and the rest to the level of humanity:
  • can my wife love me if she doesn’t know me?
  • is her love of me deeper because I keep everything from her yet she loves me anyway?
You may even answer ‘Yes’, but I would hardly say she knows me. To know someone you have to have a dialog. Perhaps you will refer to prayer or the scriptures. We’ve already discussed that this attempt at a dialog leaves me puzzled and still in unbelief.

You believe what you believe because ‘the Church’ has believed such for 2000 years. But we have to return to a first person. You and I are talking about things that I can’t figure they discussed back in the day. As in, did they hash out what god cared about (faith vs. belief) back then?
To me it is neither surprising nor do I find Him unjustified. If He exists, then He created me. And I am so very grateful for existing that I find Him justified in whatever purpose He assigns me, without it being any hindrance to His good qualities.
This and the rest have you sounding absolutely loony without any proper evidence to support your claims of how you know this purpose, how you know hell exists, under what conditions you would continue to believe, and how you know that you are immortal.

You remind me of William Lane Craig who will still believe even if he can take a time machine back to 33AD, park it outside of Jesus’ tomb on Easter eve, and witness no one emerge from the tomb. That’s complete ridiculousness to me and I have no hope of any rational discussion with someone who asserts this. I do not necessarily group you with this level of belief, but you comments lean in that direction. None of what you said has any grounding.
If her very purpose of existence was to love you by faith, then those trials would be a very ideal crucible in which she could fulfill that purpose in shining triumph. Of course, that isn’t even apparently the purpose of her existence by any reasoning, and that is why the analogy doesn’t apply.
My purpose is to ‘know, love and serve god.’ I cannot know him as he will not speak to me or provide any updates as to my questions. These are easy and his answering would immediately heal my unbelief. Thomas got to put his hands in wounds. I don’t know how you get to ‘know’ someone much better than that if you doubt their physical existence. I can’t really love someone I don’t know and without knowing their will (OT morality? Yes, Jesus had some revisions but also specified that not one iota of the law would pass away. Which law?), I can’t really serve them.

From where do you extract that my very purpose is to love god by faith? Also, given that we are all different and have different ‘conditions’ (as you say), why can’t I expect that god would tailor his depth of revelation of himself to each according to his requirements? Surely we’re not all the same and therefore not all satisfied by the same material.

I point again (or perhaps that was another thread) to the fact that god discriminates against the scientifically minded, as a majority of extremely smart practitioners of the hard sciences do not believe in him [1]. Even philosophers, most of whom come up with all the arguments we’re referencing don’t believe in him [2]

Me puzzled.

[1] #5 at samharris.org/site/full_text/10-myths-and-10-truths-about-atheism1/
[2] philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl
 
Lord have mercy. It’s me, the OP. Maybe I shouldn’t have posted my question in the philosophy department. Me thinks the answers are a bit, ummmm, deep for my situation.

I am going to tell my daughter to stay away from athiests, and if they bother her any more she has to tell them her mother said she is not allowed to talk to them about religious matters.

How’s that?
 
. Me thinks the answers are a bit, ummmm, deep for my situation.
I am going to tell my daughter to stay away from athiests, and if they bother her any more she has to tell them her mother said she is not allowed to talk to them about religious matters.
How’s that?
It depends on whether they truly curious or if they’re using it as a means to bully . Of course, it’s worth a try. I’ve used the “I was taught not to discuss politics or religion” line and that should be sufficient.

But I think that now that the question has been raised, it’s important to have an answer for your 13 year old, regardless of what the atheists do. It’s a question that inevitably comes up. It may be an opportunity for you.

I still would suggest Mother Angelica’s Answers Not Promises. She writes in a style that’s not too deep.
 
The best a non-Catholic can do for the OP, in context of her question and questions like it, is pray for her or (if nonreligious) wish her luck in defending and upholding that which she genuinely finds to be true and important…not try to talk her right out of her (fully Catholic) Faith. If she is Catholic, the odds are that she simply disagrees with propositions that say Catholic Dogma is irreconcilably illogical or akin to “flat earth” beliefs, even if she acknowledges that she may not have the arguments. She also would probably disagree, as a Catholic, that Jesus wouldn’t teach our Dogmas if He were around in humanoid bodily form today. Yes, He might go about it differently (infallibility only means the Church’s teachings are safeguarded, not Her methods), but He would be able, in His brilliance, to do so without betraying one “jot or tittle” of Catholic theology or Dogma, and I think it does Him an injustice to think that the only way He Himself could make our religion relevant to the world would be by abandoning significant parts of our beliefs. To use your own analogy, it would be like saying that Vince Lombardi, if he were alive today, would only be talented enough to win because he was willing to break the very rules of football (which would be, of course, cheating, and not respectable at all), analogous to Jesus abandoning Catholic Dogma. It does his memory no honor.
My post was not my best work. I should have gone to bed an hour before I found it, but was compelled to reply to it at the cost of three hours of sleep. I’ll do my best to defend my meaning, with apologies for faults in expression. I do not write well when emotionally engaged, and this subject is, for me, more powerful than I’d have realized without addressing it.

Let’s follow my analogy. Neither Vince Lombardi nor Jesus Christ, reprised, would cheat to achieve their goals. No way. Lombardi had no use for dirty players or cheap tricks. He didn’t keep his practices or his playbooks secret. Like Christ’s teachings were upfront, every team Lombardi played knew exactly which plays would be run. But they did not know when, or in what circumstances. Lombardi, like Christ, did not call his plays. Lombardi taught football, and expected his quarterback to talk with his teammates and choose plays. Christ taught morals, and you get to be the quarterback.

Neither Christ nor Lombardi would compromise their fundamental beliefs about the game they’d chosen to play.

Your comment suggests that you did not understand what I intended to say. Let me draw the analogy more clearly.

If you study the teachings of Jesus Christ as described in Mark, Matthew, and Luke, you will not find any dogma. Everything in those books is about blocking and tackling, running hard and playing straight up. There are some sections in which it is pointed out that our personal concepts of fairness are unrelated to the game we’re playing.

Christ does not teach any dogma. He and Lombardi both taught fundamentals, and a player who understood those fundamentals did not need dogma or plays.

Sure, Lombardi taught some plays. So did J.C. But, how often is it that you’ll show up at a dinner and strategically sit at the end of a table, in hopes of being called up to park your silly butt at the host’s right hand side? If you do that, you are a phony. If you play “samaritan” in New York city, you’ll end up a dead samaritan unless you went to the game heeled, and ditched your expensive gun, knowing that you’d get 10 years in jail simply for using it to defend an innocent.

We live in a goofy, confused world. The wise person adapts. Adherence to dogma is a maladaptation.

For example, the Green Bay power sweep was a favorite Lombardi play. Very effective dogma. He could run that play with fast, pulling guards who could be fast because they (only) weighed 240 pounds. Today, guards are bigger, and their extra 30-40 pounds of mass means that they are not going to be able to move fast enough to make that old Lombardi sweep work. It’s been tried, and it fails in the modern NFL. That dogma is dead.

So if Lombardi resurrected, he’d not be teaching that old dogma. But he would be teaching the same old fundamentals. Block hard, tackle hard, practice until you want to die, then play your hearts out for 30 minutes one day a week.

Curiously, the Church’s current body of dogma has nothing to do with Christ. It was all made up long after he died, by guys wearing tall hats, who came to power because a lot of linemen were willing to get eaten by lions without whining overmuch, until the Roman rabble became bored, and the Roman intelligentsia became sickened by their brains’ built in sensibilities.

I posted originally to the OP. If she is one of those wonderful, empathetic people who wants to do some good, but does not know how to reply to posts like mine, perhaps you should PM her and get a job as designated hitter. (Yep. Analogy switch.) Seems not a bad idea, but only if you represent her ideas, rather than your own.

She’s in the trenches, and she really, really cares. That counts for more than our combined b.s piles multiplied 100x.
 
Lord have mercy. It’s me, the OP. Maybe I shouldn’t have posted my question in the philosophy department. Me thinks the answers are a bit, ummmm, deep for my situation.

I am going to tell my daughter to stay away from athiests, and if they bother her any more she has to tell them her mother said she is not allowed to talk to them about religious matters.

How’s that?
Annemariels,

It is a back down. And, you posted to the exactly correct CAF department. What, do you think that there are accidents?

You have a friend in the forum willing to champion your thoughts, KindredSpirit. Allow him.

Perhaps between us we can help one 13 year old kid find beliefs that she can stand up for. Been there, done that, empathize. Please do not advise her to hide behind your skirts. There is no honor for her in that.

Let her engage them and learn. Let her participate, and honor her willingness to do so. Not easy. But, when Christ said, “Come, follow me,” do you really believe that he meant, “Show up for Sunday mass, sit, rise, and genuflect with everyone else?”

Putting in my time on CAF, I’ve read and delivered all kinds of intellectual b.s I’ve initiated complicated philosophical threads of my own, which died young. Yours is the first thread I’ve encountered that brings me to tears whenever I address it. I hate tears, because I do not understand them, and their arrival is the precursor of great cost. My figuring is that the simple thread you initiated is the only thread ever posted on CAF that means anything.

If all the geniuses on CAF cannot teach your daughter to deal with a bunch of nitwit atheists, then the CAF is worthless and the Catholic Church, and the fundamental belief in a created universe, is doomed.

Please share these posts with your daughter. Even better, would she share her own thoughts and feelings with us?
 
  • his believers were to do wonderful signs in his name, even to the point of being resistant to poison
  • Peter and Paul were able to heal others right after Jesus, which shows his doings extended into the future… …
  • we have higher standards today and I cannot fathom how god would let us question such an old text with difficult inconsistencies without clearing the air for future generations.
And yet we almost never see in the New Testament, aside from a few temporary occasions, someone other than those that had seen Christ or been directly given a vision performing miracles. The Apostles who saw Jesus seem, even in the NT’s own standard, to be somehow special. We scarcely see other believers doing such amazing things. We were told that these signs would “accompany” us, and they do, through the great deeds Christ bestowed upon the apostles. Everyone who believes is blessed with these signs; I need not perform them or see them with my own eyes to have benefitted from the fruit of the Apostles. Besides, we ourselves also do these things in ways which still permit room for faith. When we resist doubt, we tread upon the serpent of unbelief. When we take in arguments against religion and yet maintain our faith, we have drank poison, and been unharmed. Whenever someone receives confirmation or anointing, their soul is healed by the laying on of hands. The demons which keep us in darkness are driven away when one serves the Lord. We speak the new language of Christ’s message by the Christian lives we lead, not by speaking words along, and this is a language that no unbeliever would speak completely.

As to your last point, we simply have a different fundamental sense about how things should be, and that seems irreconcilable. I simply do not agree that it’s so hard to fathom.
I realize this. However, read Dei Verbum or one of the early Leo’s. God inspired to be written exactly what he wanted written and no more. This is the official church teaching. This means there is nothing superfluous and nothing uninspired. Given that, I’m puzzled as to him inspiring:
  • stone non-virgins on their wedding night on their father’s door step
  • slaughter everything that breaths, even beasts, but keep the virgins
  • insects have four legs
Superfluous? No. But Jesus Himself (again, reference the Divorce thing) has already revealed that some things were written which did not come directly from God’s will. It would seem that God’s inspiration can take the form of allowing as much as dictating, when it comes to scripture. The troublesome parts of the Bible give me greater opportunity to exercise Faith, unconditional love for God in the face of what unbelievers might precisely point out as reasons to not believe (and if I do not believe in Him, I cannot love Him). It does, therefore, fit His plan, so perhaps He deliberately allowed and thus, (indirectly, without thus lying) inspired those troublesome parts for this trying purpose.
God is changeless, correct? Yet we see clear changes. How is Jesus correcting the Father? Even if we are to read the OT in light of the NT… the point is that it was still inspired and must serve some purpose. What could that be in the examples above?
God is changeless, but the stages of His one divine plan are going to be different. It has always been one plan, but just as when housecleaning you aren’t constantly doing one single chore, so too God’s plan appears to have different stages, hence certain differences between the Old and New Testaments.
Yet this is obviously not obvious to many, like myself. I’m still searching, but far from obviously convinced.
I never said that it was obvious to everyone that Christianity was true, just that something happened. Even many unbelievers believe something happened that made Christianity take off like wildfire in a way that some generic fiction wouldn’t…they just don’t think it was anything supernatural.
Alas, I remain unconvinced. I find natural explanations superbly more adept to deal with explanations for miracles, Biblical inconsistencies, evil, unanswered prayer, why no one other than the anonymous gospel authors chose to note Jesus’ amazing miracles, birth place, parents’ names, etc.
I find the natural explanations–specifically for the Resurrection claims–superbly more unlikely, contrived, and reaching. We’re just at an impasse, then.
True. Though extremely frustrating. Do you even glimpse for a moment what I mean when I talk about this? If I were still a believer I would extremely disheartening. Even if you do believe that god desires faith above tangible proof that would help everyone believe in him, it is frustrating as a seeker to see all of these inferior/wrong/ridiculous religions attracting millions and even billions (Islam) of followers. You really do have to wonder about the human race when they can persist against such a clearly superior religion and instead believe: …
These things are frustrating, even discouraging. But they discourage me by reminding me of humanity’s fallen condition, and do not mean I should doubt in God Himself.
Anyway… do I think these are as convincing as Christianity? No. But talk to any of the followers and they will be as convinced as you that their religion is true. Don’t you find that at all frustrating and perplexing? Were I trying to evangelize (which I wish to in the future), I would be absolutely annoyed.
I sympathize with your annoyance at the persistence of conflicting religions in the world, as these can discourage us. However, evangelization does not require us to convince others, only to share the Faith, and let them take it or leave it. As Mother Teresa said: “We are not called to be successful, only faithful.” Please take comfort in that.

CONTINUED…
 
You may even answer ‘Yes’, but I would hardly say she knows me. To know someone you have to have a dialog. Perhaps you will refer to prayer or the scriptures. We’ve already discussed that this attempt at a dialog leaves me puzzled and still in unbelief.
But if you do choose to trust in the Scriptures and Tradition, you choose to trust the Catholic portrayal of God. If you choose to love this God, despite not necessarily having that portrayal reinforced by your empirical experimentation or senses, it is a beautiful expression of unconditional love. Your love for God could be enhanced, in fact, precisely because you have such trouble believing and would have to choose Him out of purely willing to love Him (which requires you to believe in Him first).
You believe what you believe because ‘the Church’ has believed such for 2000 years. … You and I are talking about things that I can’t figure they discussed back in the day. As in, did they hash out what god cared about (faith vs. belief) back then?
It doesn’t appear that they had to. The frequency of such conversation today is necessitated by a strong bias toward skepticism that has been increasingly stronger in the past couple hundred years than ever before. But they did hash out other things (Trinity, etc.). In our time, faith as a concept is under fire, so defending faith is our lot as defending the Trinity, etc., was the lot of Christians back in the day.
This and the rest have you sounding absolutely loony
Such a completely opinionated comment that was unnecessary to your point. I choose, by faith, to think you’re a better person than that, and that such comments are surely beneath you. If I’m wrong to have such faith, that’s fine; it’s better than thinking the worst of you. If I’m to risk being wrong, I’d rather it be charitably so. 🙂
without any proper evidence to support your claims of how you know this purpose, how you know hell exists, under what conditions you would continue to believe, and how you know that you are immortal.
Our purpose can be pieced together from everything we know of Scripture and Tradition. Everything about Scripture, Tradition, and the Daily Experience around us point to our needing to love God by Faith. It is the one common thread that joins all of these and reconciles each to the other. It is the implication of all this, rather than needing to see it spelled out, which leads me to believe that we have this purpose.

As for knowing Hell exists and that we are immortal, these things are explicitly told to us by Christ in the Scriptures. The soul lives on, there is a hell, etc. They have been established doctrines of Christianity for 2000 years, and are certainly not something I made up from some delusion. If they’re false, that’s one thing…but rather than meaning I’m insane, it merely means I’ve been fooled (though even then I would not regret my commitment to this beloved Christ Who suffered horribly with the intention of giving us hope; even if hypothetically speaking He turned out to be a mere mortal, if I believe and gain hope from believing, He didn’t suffer in vain).
None of what you said has any grounding.
I disagree, and have tried to explain, just as you’ve tried to explain why you don’t think my explanation holds water, but argument doesn’t seem to bring us any closer to each other on this matter. Another impasse.
My purpose is to ‘know, love and serve god.’ I cannot know him as he will not speak to me or provide any updates as to my questions.
These are easy and his answering would immediately heal my unbelief. Thomas got to put his hands in wounds. I don’t know how you get to ‘know’ someone much better than that if you doubt their physical existence. I can’t really love someone I don’t know and without knowing their will (OT morality? Yes, Jesus had some revisions but also specified that not one iota of the law would pass away. Which law?), I can’t really serve them.
Jesus gave us His Church to sift through these confusions. Indeed, under Sola Scriptura, there would be much confusion (what parts of the OT are binding, etc., etc.), but when we trust His Church, we are freed from these confusions. If Christ built His Church as the “pillar and bulwark of truth”, then we have assurance that the Church–insofar as it teaches Dogma and ethics–will not lead us to Hell. That trust is truly liberating. I wish…I wish you to know the comfort of this liberation too…
I point again (or perhaps that was another thread) to the fact that god discriminates against the scientifically minded, as a majority of extremely smart practitioners of the hard sciences do not believe in him
“…for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned You have revealed them to the childlike.” -Jesus Christ, Luke 10:21

Don’t misunderstand. It is not bad to be wise and learned. It is wonderful to use our intellectual gifts, and indeed we have used them to make great advances. We have to be careful, though. We can use reason and intellect to build our own modern tower of Babel, using our earthly gifts to try to assault Heaven itself as we give God the ultimatum to prove Himself or else we will endeavor to make the whole world doubt. It is this sort of pride, this daring to demand that God prove Himself or else we will declare Him unworthy of belief (as though we had that authority), that causes the wise and the learned to often fail to see God. Though I might evangelize and refuse to approve unChristian values (it’s our duty), I do not despise those who don’t listen. They have my sorrow, not my hatred. I simply wish them to not scorn me and mine for choosing the path that they themselves do not, and doing our best to not compromise it. 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
I posted originally to the OP. If she is one of those wonderful, empathetic people who wants to do some good, but does not know how to reply to posts like mine, perhaps you should PM her and get a job as designated hitter. (Yep. Analogy switch.) Seems not a bad idea, but only if you represent her ideas, rather than your own.
Hi again. 🙂

My point was that the OP is Catholic. It is only charitable to assume she is being honest in identifying herself as such. If so, that means her ideas are in line with Catholicism. Remember, we believe (even if you disagree) that Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church and endowed Her with infallibility, making Her “the pillar and bulwark of Truth.” This isn’t the place for us to argue on whether that is so (there is plenty of that around, as this is, after all, an Apologetics site), but if it is so, then Christ speaks His Dogmas through the Church even when something was not spelled out irrefutibly in Scripture. Any truly believing Catholic holds this to be true, and that was my point. When you advise a Catholic, if you want the Catholic to be able to use your advice, it must come from the standpoint that the Dogmas of the Church are the Dogmas of Christ.

You are clearly well-meaning, and I hope you may use this so as to know how to approach future situations like this. Like I said, I myself, a Catholic, would have to employ this when advising someone of a different religion on a matter like this one, if I wish my advice to bear any fruit in their lives when they are clearly asking their question from the worldview which holds that their religion is true. I couldn’t advise them to do anything immoral according to my own religion, but I could advise them in such a way that was permissible in the context of both our religions, and if no such advice existed without having to compromise my or their religion, I must then accept that I have nothing to offer to them in context of such a question unless I presume, without warrant, that they are willing to compromise their faith.

I hope that this makes sense, and hope it may help you when addressing such concerns in the future. 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
Well, I thank everyone for your (name removed by moderator)ut even though I am still scratching my head trying to figure out how to guide my child when those conversations come up again at school.

She has been targeted by a couple of young boys who claim they are atheists, and one or two of her protestant friends have been standing by her side. It’s very strange. I have three older kids who graduated from the same school system within the last eight years or so, and we never ever had this kind of thing happen. It is a small district with a very heavy Christian population. Where are the atheists coming from??? And why are they lurking around the Catholics? I noticed that there are a lot of them on the Christianity forum at amazon.com - they hang around stirring up trouble. Why can’t they just believe what they believe and leave us and our kids alone? I’d like to see them discuss their own non-beliefs with each other on their own forums and leave us alone.
It’s my feeling that most folks in this particular age group aren’t necessarily about wanting to discuss or understand - they’re mostly wanting to “prove wrong.” Not all of them, understand, but many…especially of the atheist/agnostic variety. I say this for a couple of reasons. If you don’t believe there is a God (true definition of an atheist) then why even waste your time arguing with someone about it? You don’t believe in God, you don’t believe in an eternal reward/punishment - so what difference can it possibly make for you to convince someone else you’re right and they’re not? In the end, it doesn’t matter at all. So these “atheist” teens are either wanting to simply “win” an argument or they’re actually agnostics who are teetering and waiting for someone to push them into faith. As for what your daughter can do to answer their questions? Frankly she may not be able to. And it’s perfectly okay for her to say so. Great minds and souls for many years have agonized over evil and its consequences - to little satisfactory result. The question of suffering among the innocent has long perplexed Christians and non Christians alike. The biggest question being why did Jesus Himself have to suffer, the most innocent of all? The short answer is that sin is sin and evil is evil and their are consequences to every action, whether we perform that action directly, or it is performed by others around us. Sin disrupts the natural and innocent and Godly order of things - leading to results that are unnatural, anything but innocent, and definitely not Godly. And the hardest part of our faith is that God’s ways are not our ways, and we may never truly understand them. There is a vast eternal plan. We don’t know what it is. Maybe next time one of the “atheist” teens tries to tell your daughter all the reasons why God can’t exist, or worse, tries to make her tell them why he does maybe she can give back the conversation closer. "You don’t believe there is a God, right? No heaven, no hell, no consequence to anything that we do or don’t do here on earth? Then why should I waste my time defending my beliefs to you - when ultimately, nothing I do or say will convince you differently. Let’s leave it at this. I believe in God, you don’t. And if you choose to believe that He doesn’t exist, you’re the one who had better be right!"
 
Alright, last post for me, I believe. I do appreciate your continued time in this.
Your love for God could be enhanced, in fact, precisely because you have such trouble believing and would have to choose Him out of purely willing to love Him (which requires you to believe in Him first).
Yes, impasse. I can’t love/believe in someone who has not tangibly interacted with my life. My standards are not that high. Any sign or occurrence that would bypass my threshold of ‘naturally explainable’ would do for me.
In our time, faith as a concept is under fire, so defending faith is our lot as defending the Trinity, etc., was the lot of Christians back in the day.
Again, without tangible evidence, faith is literally just wishful thinking. All you really have is that ‘something happened’. I agree with that. But it’s not difficult to find other examples of ‘something happening’ which sprung up believe which grew quite quickly. 700 years later and Islam’s 1.5 billion is nipping at the feed of Xianity’s 2.0 billion. Mormonism, perhaps requiring the most ridiculous of historical beliefs, is the fastest growing pseudo-Christianity, only came about 150 years ago, and has 6 eye witness signatures on every copy of the Book of Mormon. This is the corroboration historians dream of.

Though ‘something happened’, there is literally utter silence on any supernatural aspects of the Jesus story from non-gospel writers. All we get from them is that he existed, people think they saw him, and he has followers. Can you imagine someone doing what Jesus did in the gospels and the major historian contemporaries of the day did not care to take not of his deeds? Any of them? Or what about finding out his birth place? Mother and father’s names? Nothing!
Such a completely opinionated comment that was unnecessary to your point. I choose, by faith, to think you’re a better person than that, and that such comments are surely beneath you. If I’m wrong to have such faith, that’s fine; it’s better than thinking the worst of you. If I’m to risk being wrong, I’d rather it be charitably so. 🙂
I agree. I sincerely apologize. That comment was as bad as hating being called pig-headed or a god-hater. I do apologize for writing that.
Our purpose can be pieced together from everything we know of Scripture and Tradition… As for knowing Hell exists and that we are immortal, these things are explicitly told to us by Christ in the Scriptures. The soul lives on, there is a hell, etc. They have been established doctrines of Christianity for 2000 years, and are certainly not something I made up from some delusion.
But Christ only specifically mentions certain part of the Old Testament. He also explicitly says that not one iota shall pass away. How can we know? You place your trust in ‘Tradition’; in other words, what Church leaders have put together over the years. I do not think you made up a delusion… I think that the entire ordeal may very well be a delusion.

One is required, then, to put one’s faith in whatever bodies of Church officials have put together as ‘Tradition’. I realize there is probably some promise of the Holy Spirit surrounding such meetings, however this was probably written ex post facto, when these meetings had already occurred.

But now look to issues of sin in the Church. The answer is always that these are mere mortals comprising a human institution. So on one hand we are to trust these individuals with our very souls (should they exists), but their failures are reported as human endeavors. Which is it? How can we trust their discerned answers about all of the OT laws which you say they give us assurance about?

My answer? The Church uses the same common sense I use when seeing obvious issues with the Old Testament. The issue that the Church is stuck with is that it’s their god who inspired those things to be written… even the one who said them. I’m not stuck with that problem. I can see clearly that a loving god who was not bound by the traditions of a particular culture was free to abandon practices of animal sacrifice and Christian jihad.

You focus only on the issue of which laws still apply. I point out that not only are the laws themselves immoral… but the god you believe in issued them in the first place.

To be continued…
 
Continued…
Jesus gave us His Church to sift through these confusions. Indeed, under Sola Scriptura, there would be much confusion (what parts of the OT are binding, etc., etc.), but when we trust His Church, we are freed from these confusions. If Christ built His Church as the “pillar and bulwark of truth”, then we have assurance that the Church–insofar as it teaches Dogma and ethics–will not lead us to Hell. That trust is truly liberating. I wish…I wish you to know the comfort of this liberation too…
I wonder if that trust is liberating because is satisfies the deep human desire to know the answers. Your answers have all be sorted out for you and require no further thinking/analysis. You simply need to recite them to me and hope I take them. I discussed a lot of this up above, but one further item to point out is that trusting his Church apparently does not free one from confusions. In far easier matters than which OT laws apply, Benedict has failed to even apply current laws governing the conduct of child molesters.

Have you been keeping up on this? A petition for defrocking a priest came through following a discovery of child molestation and it took Ratzinger four years to even reply. Follow up letters were sent to him during those for years. Not even a reply for four years. What did the reply say? In essence, it said, “We’re still thinking. We realize the gravity of the offense, but we also need to realize how crushed believers would be if this comes out.” He weights the importance on the molester and the impact on faith it will have, not even mentioning the small children abused.

The current leader of the ‘pillar and bulwark’ you suggest has acted in manners far from such a title. Only recently did he even advise the Church to turn over guilty parties to the proper authorities (police). These things were happening ages ago and he just mustered up the ‘enlightenment’ to bring in the same channels of discipline and protection applied to the rest of us ‘mere mortals’? Give me a break.
We can use reason and intellect to build our own modern tower of Babel, using our earthly gifts to try to assault Heaven itself as we give God the ultimatum to prove Himself or else we will endeavor to make the whole world doubt. It is this sort of pride, this daring to demand that God prove Himself or else we will declare Him unworthy of belief (as though we had that authority), that causes the wise and the learned to often fail to see God. Though I might evangelize and refuse to approve unChristian values (it’s our duty), I do not despise those who don’t listen. They have my sorrow, not my hatred. I simply wish them to not scorn me and mine for choosing the path that they themselves do not, and doing our best to not compromise it.
The tower of Babel is a pure myth. Even figuratively, though, what has god to hide? I want to know the truth and can’t figure out a better way to learn it than to, say, put my hand in his side or watch an amputee regrow a limb in the name of Jesus. God made me with all foreknowledge, knew the type of personality and thinking process I would develop, and so surely knows that without sufficient reasons, I just can’t find a way to believe in him.

You discuss belief as if it’s mere choice. Literally, for me to ‘believe’ would be for me to ‘go through the motions.’ What is the difference in me asking for you to believe in Islam? Think about that for a second. Let me walk you through it: you, right now, can conceive that it is a possibility for you to choose to apply the principle of faith and believe in Islam, right? I’m talking hypothetically – it’s a possibility, right? Yet immediately on the back end of that possibility you feel that it is impossible.

Same with me. I can imagine ‘believing’ but it wouldn’t even be belief. I’m just not convinced. You said yourself that you require something to get you moving toward faith in the rest. Well, that ‘something’ is not doing it for me. I think there’s too much muddiness about the past to trust that someone actually rose from the grave. Not only that, but the gospels don’t align about the details as well as a whole other host of issues (Richard Carrier does a good job pointing them out).

So… that’s what I’m left with. I can ‘imagine’ but not manifest belief. I love my wife because she has proven herself enough in the past to trust her. If I met her on the street and promised to love her without verifying anything of her qualities, I really can’t see how that is virtuous. Not at least in the sense of marriage. Might as well go for arranged marriages. To make this analogous to what we have from god, my arranged marriage wife would have come with a handbook a collection of individuals wrote who swear profusely that she telepathically communicated with them to write it. But she did not dictate… just gave them the general idea. Oh yeah, and Chapter 1 is canceled out by anything contradictory in Chapter 2. And anything horrible written about her in Chapter 1 is still valuable (she telepathically inspired it), but not really true about her.

You get the idea.
 
Alright, last post for me, I believe. I do appreciate your continued time in this.
You are most welcome. 🙂
Though ‘something happened’, there is literally utter silence on any supernatural aspects of the Jesus story from non-gospel writers. All we get from them is that he existed, people think they saw him, and he has followers. Can you imagine someone doing what Jesus did in the gospels and the major historian contemporaries of the day did not care to take not of his deeds? Any of them? Or what about finding out his birth place? Mother and father’s names? Nothing!
But I speak sincerely when I say that no natural explanation is more plausible, to me, than the supernatural one. Nothing natural explains to my satisfaction the willingness of the first Apostles to die for something they would have known to be a lie, if it were untrue. We have the New Testament letters, which are real and historical (even if we don’t agree with their beliefs) so we know what even the first generation of Apostles taught and believed. They were willing to face death for this. I realize that modern believers are also willing, and obviously that proves nothing…but the Apostles, in claiming eyewitness testimony, would have known if they were dying for a lie. Either that, or Jesus was able to work an illusion that not even the greatest of magicians could do with the technology available at the time, an illusion that would have required not only amazing special effects, but the cooperation of the Roman Empire and the Jewish authorities, neither of which were friends of the Christian movement. Yes, there are conceivable natural explanations (which I haven’t mentioned here in detail), but they would be difficult to swallow even if I believed in no God, whereas when I believe in a God, the Resurrection isn’t hard to believe at all (God can do anything). In fact, Christianity’s historical origins, while not absolutely invulnerable to natural explanation, are in my personal finding and opinion the hardest of all other religions’ historical origins to explain away with natural means.

I know you may disagree with all this, but do you see why we aren’t just believing in Christianity at random or pulling it out of nowhere?
I agree. I sincerely apologize. That comment was as bad as hating being called pig-headed or a god-hater. I do apologize for writing that.
Thank you; I truly appreciate it.
But now look to issues of sin in the Church. The answer is always that these are mere mortals comprising a human institution. So on one hand we are to trust these individuals with our very souls (should they exists), but their failures are reported as human endeavors. Which is it? How can we trust their discerned answers about all of the OT laws which you say they give us assurance about?
To the underlined part, the answer is both. Sin and doctrine are two different things. Child molestation, coverups, greed, etc., these are all actions, not doctrines, nor are they ethical teachings so much as examples of “Do as I say, not as I do.” Hypocritical, perhaps, and if not then still definitely flawed, but not a derailing of our religion itself.
You focus only on the issue of which laws still apply. I point out that not only are the laws themselves immoral… but the god you believe in issued them in the first place
We simply disagree, then. I believe that there could easily be more laws like the Divorce one, and the way to know when this is so is through the Church’s teachings Jesus’ explicit from-his-bodily-mouth teachings, so that when we know that something in the Old Testament is completely contrary to God’s character, it was possibly inspired by way of allowing the culture to influence the Old Testament (and I’ve mused what purpose that would have in an earlier post) rather than God’s directly issuing such things, just as Jesus explicitly tells us He did not issue the teaching on divorce.
I wonder if that trust is liberating because is satisfies the deep human desire to know the answers. Your answers have all be sorted out for you and require no further thinking/analysis. You simply need to recite them to me and hope I take them.
But I do not need to do that for my own sake. I need to share my faith with you, as that’s my duty of evangelization, but hoping you take them is entirely for your own welfare, not mine. As for my answers being all sorted out for me, it is true that I am unburdened by the need to explain every detail and prove everything–if I held myself to that standard, I’d never believe anything about anything, metaphysically, including Atheism–but this doesn’t mean I do not think or analyze these things. But when I think and analyze on the more complicated difficulties, it is from a desire to plumb the depths of God’s wonderful (if sometimes troublesome) mysteries, not a prerequisite for my belief in Him.
The current leader of the ‘pillar and bulwark’ you suggest has acted in manners far from such a title. Only recently did he even advise the Church to turn over guilty parties to the proper authorities (police). These things were happening ages ago and he just mustered up the ‘enlightenment’ to bring in the same channels of discipline and protection applied to the rest of us ‘mere mortals’? Give me a break.
I mentioned my view of things like this a few paragraphs back, and I only quote this to mention that this problem too is addressed there, as it falls under being unsatisfactory character decisions, not doctrine or Catholic moral codes.

CONTINUED…
 
Even figuratively, though, what has god to hide?
The death or vast reduction of the need for faith, which is what would happen if the figurative Babel of strict empiricism were allowed to “assault Heaven”, i.e., strongarm God into proving His existence universally and unambiguously, in violation of His will that we should have faith.
You discuss belief as if it’s mere choice. Literally, for me to ‘believe’ would be for me to ‘go through the motions.’ What is the difference in me asking for you to believe in Islam? Think about that for a second. Let me walk you through it: you, right now, can conceive that it is a possibility for you to choose to apply the principle of faith and believe in Islam, right? I’m talking hypothetically – it’s a possibility, right? Yet immediately on the back end of that possibility you feel that it is impossible.
The difference is not only that I find Christianity more convincing to me personally (which I do), but I also love God specifically as He is portrayed in Christianity more than in any other religion. Both of these things work together, and though the first might have led to the second, if I simply made a choice (and love, indeed, is a choice) to fulfill the second I can predict that I might believe even if the first reason was not true for me. Even if not, my criteria for faith currently considers a pragmatic combination of these three things: (1) What is the most convincing thing that (2) brings me the most hope, along with (3) believing in it not carrying eternally bad consequences if something more convincing (but less hopeful) turns out to be true?

If something were more convincing than Christianity (nothing is, to me, but if so) but brought me less hope, and if disbelieving in it carried no eternal consequences for me (Atheism would be such a “something”, if I found it more convincing than I do), it would not be worth believing to me, despite its convincing nature. I love Jesus of Nazareth for the hope He represents, for bringing me the most convincing religion in the world (to me, and I can only work with what convinces me) so that I need not pull this hope from thin air. I especially love Jesus as believed by Catholicism for giving me a means to not have to torture myself about conflicting Biblical interpretations that even I myself may hold if left to my own devices. Even if I thought (again, a huge IF) that Atheism was more intellectually convincing (to me), I do not love it, I do not find hope in it (not even a lifetime of wealth and happiness could make me content with the thought of no higher purpose and no post-death existence; the last section in that original article didn’t ring true for me personally at all–my hope is in Christianity, it could never be in Atheism, regardless of whether the author feels the same way), and it holds no eternal threat for my person if I reject it…so I could and would choose Christianity, even if I were in your position (while still being myself, with my personality).

Speaking of this, you said earlier that you find Christianity to be the most convincing religion, just not as convincing as Atheism. You may not find Christianity as convincing as I do, but you are (basically) in the position I mention in the last paragraph. Dare to choose hope, if there is any way you can at all. Others, or your own stray thoughts, might call your hope wishful thinking but, while not always applicable, the “sticks and stones” saying applies here. Even if (strictly for the sake of argument) they were right in calling it that, what should it matter? “Wishes” sometimes hit the nail on the head, against all odds, after all; this is even truer when based on some sort of reason for hope, as we have discussed with Christianity. It’s a worthy risk: No matter which of your top two convincing options is true, you’ve nothing to lose by choosing Christian hope, not in the grand scheme, not in eternity.

Perhaps the thought of people going to Hell seemingly because they “just didn’t know” makes you reluctant to truly define Christianity as the most hope-filled option between itself and Atheism. As far as that goes, we in the Catholic religion do not know that every unbeliever goes to Hell, although perhaps otherwise avoidable [added] time in Purgatory would be in order to cleanse them of whatever caused them to doubt when others in their same circumstances might be willing to believe. There is a Hell, but we don’t know if every unbeliever goes there. How could this be, when Christ is the only way to the Father, when there is no salvation outside of the Church? For all I know, God could give someone (with a well-meaning heart but who just wasn’t willing to go far enough to believe in and love Him by faith), an instant-before-death vision (we believe He is the master of time and so it follows He could do such a thing) by which He would permit them to accept Him and the true Faith fully. Whatever the case, God is vastly merciful and vastly just at once. He is also omniscient, infinitely intelligent. If anyone can find a way to have mercy on unbelievers without betraying the theology we believe He gave to the Church, it is He Himself Who can.

I sense that you do not hate the Faith, or wish to antagonize us. You’re wrestling with these answers, truly striving in an honest battle with all the evidence that you see as reason to doubt. I may not be able to help you at all by debate and discussion, and I am sincerely sorry for that limitation on my part…but I pray for you, and I sincerely hope you can find a way to reach out and take hold of the hope that our Faith has to offer. 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
Last post? Okay… I lied.
Speaking of this, you said earlier that you find Christianity to be the most convincing religion, just not as convincing as Atheism… No matter which of your top two convincing options is true, you’ve nothing to lose by choosing Christian hope, not in the grand scheme, not in eternity.
This is tempting to some degree. Alas, I’m just not there yet. My intellectual issues right now outweigh that part of me that wishes. I desire certitude. I desire everyone in the world to know the truth about this area, whatever it may be: no gods, one god, multiple gods, evil gods… whatever it may be, I want the whole world to know and be unified. Religion as it stands is about the most divisive force I can think of. I doubt it intends to be such, and many believers would not cringe slightly inside to find out someone they knew at work was an atheist or Muslim or what-have-you… but nevertheless, there is a clear recognition that beliefs differ. We take this extremely personally. I have felt this cringe myself simply in finding out that a very holy friend was not Catholic but Protestant. No objective reason to have that, but I just recognized this sadness about him that was not there before – almost like an instinct.
Perhaps the thought of people going to Hell seemingly because they “just didn’t know” makes you reluctant to truly define Christianity as the most hope-filled option between itself and Atheism.
Good points (snipped the rest):
  • I realize that Catholicism doesn’t damn people who don’t know because they haven’t heard
  • I do have some issues with even the idea of hell at least as how William Lane Craig explains it. I also have issues with the Church Fathers’ writings about it; namely that those in heaven will be overjoyed while watching the suffering of others down below. Awful.
  • Should I become an atheist (I don’t even know what to call myself at present), I wish to live my life in a morally beneficial way. I would like to exemplify everything that Christians believe defines a ‘good’ person, minus the prayer time, Church time, dogma, etc. At the heart of it all, the golden rule is a human theme (altruism), not a Jesus-only theme.
  • I would like nothing more than to have an opportunity to ‘bend my knee’ should Jesus be real. If he exists, I want to know that truth. Were I to be unable for whatever reason (personality, my criteria for belief, etc.) to bring myself to belief but my life was one of service and love to my fellows, I suppose I don’t exactly expect a god to allow me the opportunity to worship, but the hypothesis strikes me as fair. I have loved his creatures well and therefore would like the opportunity to love him if he exists.
I sense that you do not hate the Faith, or wish to antagonize us. You’re wrestling with these answers, truly striving in an honest battle with all the evidence that you see as reason to doubt. I may not be able to help you at all by debate and discussion, and I am sincerely sorry for that limitation on my part…but I pray for you, and I sincerely hope you can find a way to reach out and take hold of the hope that our Faith has to offer.
Very true and I appreciate this last recognition significantly. I’m 26. Married. 1 daughter and one on the way. This is agonizing to varying degrees, depending on the day and situation. I don’t necessarily perceive the same hope situation that you do (as in, without Christianity, there is none), though it is more of a ‘hopeless’ situation for me to know that neither stance about god can be proven, at least at present. This is quite frustrating. Of all the answers to know and cherish, this one is extremely illusive. I love math. Why? There is one answer. That’s it. It’s lovely. Yet the maker of math, should he exist, cannot be obtained, studied, understood, perceived directly, etc. It’s an awful state for me.

I will continue on. Debate and discussion are helpful, probably mostly as a way for me to express my insides vs. actually proving one thing to myself or anyone else. At the end of the day, it probably comes down to Pascal’s famous saying: ‘The heart has reasons that reason cannot know.’ Typically this is applied to why believers believe. For me right now, I would state that it is perhaps why I do not believe. Though the same evidence is present, I am not satisfied and others are. On the whole, the world is far more unconvinced than convinced, but it’s never really been about numbers to me. I just want the truth. If I have to give up some hope or happiness in this lifetime for it, so be it. I truly mean that. I’d rather have a foundation of truth than the hope of something that might not be real.
 
I desire certitude. I desire everyone in the world to know the truth about this area, whatever it may be: no gods, one god, multiple gods, evil gods… whatever it may be, I want the whole world to know and be unified.
I feel pretty confident saying that this will NEVER happen in this life. In order for it to happen, everyone in the world would have to value Truth above everything else.
Religion as it stands is about the most divisive force I can think of.
In a way, this is terrible, and in a way it isn’t. It’s terrible because of course it would be better if the search for the ultimate reality didn’t divide people. But:
a) any real divisions that result from the search for the Truth mean that at least people are putting something higher than mere animal comfort, and
b) most of the violent divisions that are theoretically resulting from religion, are generally the result of bad people using religion to manipulate others. For example, frequently the people on both sides of the violence in Northern Ireland (so I’ve been told) aren’t particularly religious–just particuarly partisan.
  • Should I become an atheist (I don’t even know what to call myself at present),
By definition, I’d say agnostic.
I wish to live my life in a morally beneficial way. I would like to exemplify everything that Christians believe defines a ‘good’ person, minus the prayer time, Church time, dogma, etc.
The only problem with that is, if the Church is a lie, then how do you know that its teachings on what define a good person are true?

–Jen
 
a) any real divisions that result from the search for the Truth mean that at least people are putting something higher than mere animal comfort
Or not… perhaps the very fact that most don’t have anything to back their claims with results in arguments that go something like this: ‘I’m right’… ‘No, I’m right!’ Then it’s settled via duel.
By definition, I’d say agnostic.
I’m happy with that.
The only problem with that is, if the Church is a lie, then how do you know that its teachings on what define a good person are true?
For the same reason it provides rules of wisdom on natural law, which can be obtained via reason alone. As a nonbeliever, I’m able to sift any tradition’s scriptures for wise words that inspire action.

At the end of the day, this is what matters to me: fruitful actions. I believe that any tradition that works in a practical sense will result in a ‘saint’, which also shows that Christians don’t have a monopoly on the source of all power.
 
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