144,000 and Another JW Visit:

[MrZetterlund]

I was visited yet again by a Jehovah’s Witness eager to convert me to the Watchtower organization. He seems overwhelmingly convinced that the Catholic Church is a harlot “twisting the true teachings of Jesus Christ.” I told him the reason I converted to Catholicism is because I noticed they had many beliefs and practices not prevelant anywhere else in Christianity. A few examples I gave were the Sacrament of Reconciliation (John 20:23,) the Primacy of the Pope (i.e. the successor of St. Peter, Matt. 16:18, John 1:42, 21:15-17, Luke 22:31 & Acts 1:15,) the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the bread and wine of the Holy Eucharist (1 Cor. 11:27-29) and the fact that the custom was to celebrate the Lord’s Supper during Sunday worship services (Acts 20:7.) Of course, he had no idea what I was talking about and I was practically speaking in another language when I brought these things up. He seemed caught up in the fact that the Watchtower teaches that the soul is mortal and that the rest of “Christiandom” teaches that the soul is immortal and lives forever. Of couse, verses like 2 Cor. 5:8 are easy for him to dispell because he believes that Paul’s audience is the 144,000 “redeemed” of Spiritual Israel that are in fact “redeemed from this Earth”, as he interprets Revelations 14:3-5. The problem is, I can’t seem to find a flaw in his interpretation of this passage. Are 144,000 truly all who will be redeemed from this Earth into a heavenly abode? I also had a problem with his OT passages about how “the dead know nothing.” Does anyone want to help me out with this?

Thank you, and God bless…

 

[DasErlibnis]

In college I was gonna join, although they said I’d be #144,001, but that the last won a free tv!! So I told them that even though I was only a freshman, there were people out there who are stupid-er-er than me, but feel free to stay if they wanted pizza and beer.

On another note, what do two Baptists say when they see each other at a bar?

…nothing

 

[gus]

I was visited yet again by a Jehovah’s Witness eager to convert me to the Watchtower organization. He seems overwhelmingly convinced that the Catholic Church is a harlot “twisting the true teachings of Jesus Christ.” I told him the reason I converted to Catholicism is because I noticed they had many beliefs and practices not prevelant anywhere else in Christianity. A few examples I gave were the Sacrament of Reconciliation (John 20:23,) the Primacy of the Pope (i.e. the successor of St. Peter, Matt. 16:18, John 1:42, 21:15-17, Luke 22:31 & Acts 1:15,) the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the bread and wine of the Holy Eucharist (1 Cor. 11:27-29) and the fact that the custom was to celebrate the Lord’s Supper during Sunday worship services (Acts 20:7.) Of course, he had no idea what I was talking about and I was practically speaking in another language when I brought these things up. He seemed caught up in the fact that the Watchtower teaches that the soul is mortal and that the rest of “Christiandom” teaches that the soul is immortal and lives forever. Of couse, verses like 2 Cor. 5:8 are easy for him to dispell because he believes that Paul’s audience is the 144,000 “redeemed” of Spiritual Israel that are in fact “redeemed from this Earth”, as he interprets Revelations 14:3-5. The problem is, I can’t seem to find a flaw in his interpretation of this passage. Are 144,000 truly all who will be redeemed from this Earth into a heavenly abode? I also had a problem with his OT passages about how “the dead know nothing.” Does anyone want to help me out with this?

Thank you, and God bless…

The 144,000 are Jewish Male Virgins 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

Ask him about the untold mulitude washed in the blood of lamb?

 

[JM3]

From the NIV (the JW bible):

Revelation chapter 7

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’**
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]”**

 

[MrZetterlund]

In college I was gonna join, although they said I’d be #144,001, but that the last won a free tv!! So I told them that even though I was only a freshman, there were people out there who are stupid-er-er than me, but feel free to stay if they wanted pizza and beer.

On another note, what do two Baptists say when they see each other at a bar?

…nothing

LOL What???

The 144,000 are Jewish Male Virgins 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

Ask him about the untold mulitude washed in the blood of lamb?

I thought about this, but he made a point that two of the tribes listed were not the same as they were in the OT, meaning that they were the spiritually Jewish nation of Israel that one becomes as a believer in Christ, or “washed in the blood of the Lamb” i.e., Christ’s sacrifice for humanity. Of course, speaking on the level of belief in His sacrifice, not partaking in it in the Holy Eucharist.

 

[MrZetterlund]

From the NIV (the JW bible):

Revelation chapter 7

The NIV is the New International Version, the NWT is the New WORLD Translation, and they use the latter… And they’d probably just interpret this as being the 144,000 and say “Well later on in the book they DID count them…”

 

[MrZetterlund]

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’**
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]” **

Verses 7:1-8 puts this in the context of the 144,000…

 

[Michael85]

Read John 1:1 in the New World Translation, and you’ll see just how screwed up it is.

 

[MrZetterlund]

Read John 1:1 in the New World Translation, and you’ll see just how screwed up it is.

Lol, beat you to it. But this isn’t a discussion of the inconsistancies of Watchtower, rather, the focus is on their view of the 144,000 of the redeemed, which stumps me.

 

[MrZetterlund]

Uhh… Hello? Help please CAF? :takethat:

 

[Kc906]

He seemed caught up in the fact that the Watchtower teaches that the soul is mortal and that the rest of “Christiandom” teaches that the soul is immortal and lives forever.

The best verse that I have come across to prove that our souls continue to live on after our death on earth is Luke 16:19-31. Jesus is speaking at the time, and he is telling a story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus. Both men died, and the details here show specifically 2 things:

1. Both men are dead, yet are very alive after the fact and have the ability to think, feel, speak etc…
2. We see the parallel between the beggar who is in the bosom of Abraham, and the rich man who is being “tormented in the flame”

This one Chapter in Luke directly refutes the JW stance on the soul continuing to live on after death, and the fact that after we die on earth there really is a fiery hell where we are alive and tormented if that is our chosen fate. No matter what other verse they try to pull up to disprove you; it HAS to have another meaning than their interpretation. There is absolutely no way this verse in Luke can not be understood the way I mentioned above, therefore any other verse they may mention from the OT will simply have a different meaning then they state it has.

I discussed this verse recently with a JW friend of mine, and she didn’t “understand” the verse this way when she read it on her own. She actually discussed it with her “sister” that is conducting Bible Studies with her, and the “sister” actually stated that they as JW’s do actually believe in Hell. Amazing, i’m sure she said they believe in Hell to prevent the younger girl from possibly doing any further research. A quick glance and search at the Watchtower’s main web site shows that they indeed DO NOT believe in a fiery Hell where people are tormented; they believe it is man’s common grave.

 

[kmuestwin]

The best verse that I have come across to prove that our souls continue to live on after our death on earth is Luke 16:19-31. Jesus is speaking at the time, and he is telling a story of a “bad man” named Lazarus and a beggar. Both men died, and the details here show specifically 2 things:

1. Both men are dead, yet are very alive after the fact and have the ability to think, feel, speak etc…
2. We see the parallel between the beggar who is in the bosom of Abraham, and Lazarus who is being “tormented in the flame”

This one Chapter in Luke directly refutes the JW stance on the soul continuing to live on after death, and the fact that after we die on earth there really is a fiery hell where we are alive and tormented if that is our chosen fate. No matter what other verse they try to pull up to disprove you; it HAS to have another meaning than their interpretation. There is absolutely no way this verse in Luke can not be understood the way I mentioned above, therefore any other verse they may mention from the OT will simply have a different meaning then they state it has.

I discussed this verse recently with a JW friend of mine, and she didn’t “understand” the verse this way when she read it on her own. She actually discussed it with her “sister” that is conducting Bible Studies with her, and the “sister” actually stated that they as JW’s do actually believe in Hell. Amazing, i’m sure she said they believe in Hell to prevent the younger girl from possibly doing any further research. A quick glance and search at the Watchtower’s main web site shows that they indeed DO NOT believe in Hell.

Lazarus was the good guy in the story.

 

[Kc906]

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 14:3-5[/BIBLEDRB]

The JW’s are known to only take the 144,000 people literally, but they do not adhere to ANYTHING that describes these people. Scripture says that these people are Male Virgins, they have not been defiled by women. There are women and men with families in their cult who claim to be apart of this 144,000, so that in itself directly contradicts scripture if the 144,000 and what is stated about them is to be taken literally.

I don’t know the Church’s official position on the 144,000, but from my understanding this number is not taken as literal. You can also ask for proof that the 144,000 was not already filled before the JW’s sprung up in the 1870’s, or at the very least exactly how many of those 144,000 seats were already filled before then.

JW’s, like any other religion that adheres to sola scriptura, must be able to prove these things from scripture alone since they “claim” they only adhere to sacred scripture. Of course they have no way of proving this from scriptures alone, and if they haven’t walked away by this point I would think they would be packing up right around here.

 

[MrZetterlund]

The best verse that I have come across to prove that our souls continue to live on after our death on earth is Luke 16:19-31. Jesus is speaking at the time, and he is telling a story of a “bad man” named Lazarus and a beggar. Both men died, and the details here show specifically 2 things:

1. Both men are dead, yet are very alive after the fact and have the ability to think, feel, speak etc…
2. We see the parallel between the beggar who is in the bosom of Abraham, and Lazarus who is being “tormented in the flame”

This one Chapter in Luke directly refutes the JW stance on the soul continuing to live on after death, and the fact that after we die on earth there really is a fiery hell where we are alive and tormented if that is our chosen fate. No matter what other verse they try to pull up to disprove you; it HAS to have another meaning than their interpretation. There is absolutely no way this verse in Luke can not be understood the way I mentioned above, therefore any other verse they may mention from the OT will simply have a different meaning then they state it has.

I discussed this verse recently with a JW friend of mine, and she didn’t “understand” the verse this way when she read it on her own. She actually discussed it with her “sister” that is conducting Bible Studies with her, and the “sister” actually stated that they as JW’s do actually believe in Hell. Amazing, i’m sure she said they believe in Hell to prevent the younger girl from possibly doing any further research. A quick glance and search at the Watchtower’s main web site shows that they indeed DO NOT believe in Hell.

Lazarus was the good guy in the story.

Ok, but this thread isn’t about the permiatingly unbiblical beliefs of the WT, it’s about their understanding of only 144,000 people going to heaven and why they’re wrong, which I DON’T have an answer to. The immorality or mortality of the soul is irrelevant, as is the existence or the non-existence of hell. Yeah, they’re definently non-mainstream, but why are they wrong about only 144,000 going to heaven???

 

[MrZetterlund]

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 14:3-5[/BIBLEDRB]

The JW’s are known to only take the 144,000 people literally, but they do not adhere to ANYTHING that describes these people. Scripture says that these people are Male Virgins, they have not been defiled by women. There are women and men with families in their cult who claim to be apart of this 144,000, so that in itself directly contradicts scripture if the 144,000 and what is stated about them is to be taken literally.

I don’t know the Church’s official position on the 144,000, but from my understanding this number is not taken as literal. You can also ask for proof that the 144,000 was not already filled before the JW’s sprung up in the 1870’s, or at the very least exactly how many of those 144,000 seats were already filled before then.

JW’s, like any other religion that adheres to sola scriptura, must be able to prove these things from scripture alone since they “claim” they only adhere to sacred scripture. Of course they have no way of proving this from scriptures alone, and if they haven’t walked away by this point I would think they would be packing up right around here.

Yes, but at the same time, they always ***deny ***their hope of heaven as they evangelize, therefore unhypocritical in their teaching of only 144,000 being redeemed. They DO obviously have a hope for the ressurection…

 

[Kc906]

Ok, but this thread isn’t about the permiatingly unbiblical beliefs of the WT, it’s about their understanding of only 144,000 people going to heaven and why they’re wrong, which I DON’T have an answer to. The immorality or mortality of the soul is irrelevant, as is the existence or the non-existence of hell. Yeah, they’re definently non-mainstream, but why are they wrong about only 144,000 going to heaven???

They are wrong because they specifically use Revelation 7 as the reason why they believe ONLY 144,000 JW’s will go to Heaven. They claim they ONLY believe what is written in scriptures, so would it not also be relevant to discuss the fact that these 144,000 are not only Jews (which he dispelled,) but also Male Virgins? Your answer is exactly that; they take the number as literal but EVERYTHING else about those 144,000 they ignore. It is extremely relevant, as it shows the great distance they have gone to push this belief on their followers.

I mentioned the immorality of the soul and Hell since this person was focused on that in your discussion; it sounds like you will speak with them again and you now have something to refute their incorrect teachings.

God Bless

 

[MrZetterlund]

They are wrong because they specifically use Revelation 7 as the reason why they believe ONLY 144,000 JW’s will go to Heaven. They claim they ONLY believe what is written in scriptures, so would it not also be relevant to discuss the fact that these 144,000 are not only Jews (which he dispelled,) but also Male Virgins? Your answer is exactly that; they take the number as literal but EVERYTHING else about those 144,000 they ignore. It is extremely relevant, as it shows the great distance they have gone to push this belief on their followers.

I mentioned the immorality of the soul and Hell since this person was focused on that in your discussion; it sounds like you will speak with them again and you now have something to refute their incorrect teachings.

God Bless

Actually, they don’t claim that only JWs go to heaven, and they dont claim to have any hope of heaven themselves… If I don’t nip this in the butt, then I dont think the discussion can progress to anything else that I’m actually confident in and know right about…

 

[Yerusalyim]

Actually, they don’t claim that only JWs go to heaven, and they dont claim to have any hope of heaven themselves… If I don’t nip this in the butt, then I dont think the discussion can progress to anything else that I’m actually confident in and know right about…

The colloquialism is “nip it in the BUD”…a pruning reference…to stop something from growing. Nip it in the butt would be a sexual harrassment law suit in most places.

Some current JWs claim to have a heavenly hope…something between 8000 and 9000 of them…they’re the ones that eat the bread and drink the wine at the memorial…kinda puts that “take this ALL OF YOU and eat it” out of context. And according to JW thinking…all those who make it to heaven in their theology were witnesses for Jehovah…so JWs in a sense.

 

[pablope]

I was visited yet again by a Jehovah’s Witness eager to convert me to the Watchtower organization.

He seemed caught up in the fact that the Watchtower teaches that the soul is mortal and that the rest of “Christiandom” teaches that the soul is immortal and lives forever.
Does anyone want to help me out with this?

Thank you, and God bless…

They are using a verse in Ecclesiastes…I think it is in Chapter 9. v 5…where is says the dead know nothing…of course, it is taken out of context.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

But it does not say anything about the soul.

Here is a website of ex jws now catholic…they may be able to give you the info you need.

catholicxjw.com/

 

[Kc906]

Actually, they don’t claim that only JWs go to heaven, and they dont claim to have any hope of heaven themselves… If I don’t nip this in the butt, then I dont think the discussion can progress to anything else that I’m actually confident in and know right about…

They claim that there were loyal witnesses to YHWH before their religion was founded in the 1870’s. These loyal to YHWH i’m assuming were not directly apart of the one Catholic church since they held to “apostate beliefs and traditions of men,” instead of what was written in infallible scriptures. People do partake in the emblems each year during their memorial service, which means some people in their religion state they are going to Heaven. Statistically, this is not even 1% of the people in their religion, but some JW’s do state they will be apart of this 144,000

Posts #3 and #4 in this thread help clarify who exactly is in Heaven, and it is not limited to the 144,000.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 7:9-12[/BIBLEDRB]

So we see can see that there is a great multitude that no one could number, that is from all over the world, from all of the tribes and people among the eearth. And they are standing before the throne, In Heaven. At no place in scripture does it state that ONLY 144,000 are going to be in Heaven, that view was invented well after this religion was formed.

“As spirit-anointed brothers of Christ, all the early Christians had the prospect of being heavenly priests with Christ.” Jehovah’s Witnesses - **Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom p.35 **

“For some 19 centuries after this there was only one calling, the heavenly one. It was an undeserved kindness that God bestowed on a limited number in furtherance of his own wise and loving purposes.” **United in Worship of the only True God p.111 **

“We understand that this heavenly calling continued down through the centuries, though during the so-called Dark Ages, there may have been times when the number of anointed ones were very few. With the reestablishment of true Christianity near the end of the last century, more were called and chosen. But it seems that in the mid-1930’s, the full number of the 144,000 was basically completed. Thus there began to appear a group of loyal Christians with the earthly hope. Jesus termed such “other sheep,” who unite in worship with the anointed as one approved flock.” **Watchtower 1996 Aug 15 p.31 **

So their initial belief was that every faithful servant of God for the first 19 centuries had one hope, a heavenly one. Then they changed their belief that only a select few true believers over the first 19 centuries would be resurrected in Heaven. When they state that only 144,000 go to Heaven based on Revelation 7:1-8; it can easily be refuted by verses 9-12 where there is a multitude of others before the throne in Heaven who cannot be numbered.

When Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom in Matthew 16:17; Peter and the others (later on) are given the power to bind and loose people to Heaven. It seems like a pretty glaring omission in scriptures that there is no place in the New Testament stating that an overwhelming majority of Christians will be saved and resurrected on the Earth.