144,000: Revelations

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In the book of Revelations it is mentioned that 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel will be saved. Does this mean that at the time of the end of the world, there will only be 144,4440 righteous people left?
 
NO**,NO,NO! Revelation cannot be taken literally-.JW"s believe tripe like that.It also says something about ‘male virgins’ :eek:**
 
In the book of Revelations it is mentioned that 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel will be saved. Does this mean that at the time of the end of the world, there will only be 144,4440 righteous people left?
The 144,000 number is symbolic, meaning a great multitude of people.
 
In the book of Revelations it is mentioned that 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel will be saved. Does this mean that at the time of the end of the world, there will only be 144,4440 righteous people left?
You might want to check your math. 12 x 12,000 = 144,000 not 1,444,440. I suppose the extra million or so could be slaves or wives.
 
You might want to check your math. 12 x 12,000 = 144,000 not 1,444,440. I suppose the extra million or so could be slaves or wives.
You forgot dogs, cabbages and mutates spawns of Dwakins and Harris. Thank you for reminding me why atheists contribute nothing to society.
 
NO**,NO,NO! Revelation cannot be taken literally-.JW"s believe tripe like that.It also says something about ‘male virgins’ :eek:**
Revelation specifically says it is 12,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel, and then names them. By your own statement, does that mean when Revelation mentions “churches”, it means something else?

The God of Israel in the future will call on 144,000 Israelis. It may be tripe to you, but it is His command.
 
The number is not literal but symbolicThe Symbolism of Numbers in the Bible
compiled by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.

In many ancient cultures, including Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity, numbers were not used as precisely as we might presuppose today. Thus, numbers in the Old Testament and New Testament books are often meant symbolically, not literally. For example:

When the Israelites wanted to say “a long time,” they would say “40 days” or “40 years.” Not concerned with meticulous precision as much as we are today, saying “forty” did not mean that they counted carefully, and the result was exactly between 39 and 41, no more and no less.
Similarly, to say “a short time,” the Scriptures often say “on the third day” or “in three days,” but without meaning exactly 72 hours!
Consider the symbolism of other numbers used in biblical texts:

1 singularity; God in monotheism (Deut 6:4); unity for humans (John 10:16; Eph 4:4)
2 duality: contrary (light/dark, good/evil) or complimentary (material/spiritual; human/divine)
3 God’s actions: 3 “visitors” (Gen 18:2); “third day” (Exod 19:11); later “Trinity” (Matt 28:19)
3½ half of seven; thus things in process, still incomplete
4 earth, directions, winds, empires; later the four Gospels or four Evangelists
6 human work/effort (Luke 13:14); incompleteness, imperfection, lack (not yet 7)
7 days in a week, sabbath rest (Gen 2:1-3); thus natural & divine completeness/perfection
8 Jewish day of Circumcision (Exod 22:30); Christian day of Resurrection (John 20:26)
10 completion; basis of many number systems (# digits on fingers/toes!)
11 incompletion; only eleven apostles remain after Judas’ death
12 months per year, tribes of Israel, apostles of Jesus; human completion
[13] [used in later superstition; based on Judas, but not used in Bible itself]
24 Christian number for completion/restoration: OT tribes + NT apostles
30 days in month in ancient lunar calendars
40 very long time: years of Israel’s Exodus, days of Jesus’ temptation
42 number of months in 3½ years (half of seven years; see also 1260 days)
100 = 10x10
144 = 12x12, thus perfect completion
360 number of days in a lunar year
365 number of days in a solar year (cf. Gen 5:23)
666 number of the beast (Rev 13:18 only; variant reading is 616)
1000 = 10x10x10
1260 number of days in 3½ years (thus incompletion)
10,000 “myriad”; highest ancient number with its own name

Larger numbers in the Bible are often multiples of these basic numbers, thus combining their significance:

7000 = 7 x 1000; 12,000 = 12 x 1000; 20,000 = 2 x 10,000; 144,000 = 12 x 12,000
“200 million” in Rev 9:16 is an English equivalent for 20,000 x 10,000; but there is no word in Hebrew or Greek for “million” or “billion”

It’s not “His command” but a misunderstanding of the text and it’s symbolisn- and yeah, it 'tripes ’ me​

 
In the book of Revelations it is mentioned that 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel will be saved. Does this mean that at the time of the end of the world, there will only be 144,4440 righteous people left?
The JWs use this to say that only this number will enter Heaven. The remainder will live on a new Earth. However, if that is the case, all of the people admitted to Heaven must have been Jews prior to being JWs since they belong to one of the twelve tribes.

They have it wrong.
 
The 144,000 number is symbolic, meaning a great multitude of people.
This is correct. 144,000 = 10 x 10 x 10 x 12 x 12, meaning “very, very, very many of all of the tribes of all of the tribes of God’s people,” something like that.
 
The JWs use this to say that only this number will enter Heaven. The remainder will live on a new Earth. However, if that is the case, all of the people admitted to Heaven must have been Jews prior to being JWs since they belong to one of the twelve tribes.

They have it wrong.
I am not sure how Cathlolics view this verse, but Paul was writing to a Gentile congregation who he called the Israel of God.
NAB **Galatians **6:16 Peace and mercy be to all who follow this rule and to the Israel of God.
Also, how do you view this verse?
NAB Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel,
Dan
 
Firstly the 144,000 are all from the tribes of Israel. That means, apparently, that on this reading non-Jews (Gentiles) won’t get into heaven.

Secondly, they are all virgins, Rev 14:3-5. Does that mean married people won’t get into heaven either?

Thirdly, they are described (also Rev 14:3-5) as the ‘firstfruits’ of the redeemed. Firstfruits doesn’t mean the same as ‘sum total of the redeemed’, quite the opposite.
 
The God of Israel in the future will call on 144,000 Israelis. It may be tripe to you, but it is His command.
Your opinion. Not anything the Catholic Church teaches, for what it’s worth.
 
I am not sure how Cathlolics view this verse, but Paul was writing to a Gentile congregation who he called the Israel of God.

Also, how do you view this verse?

Dan
Good points but the passage in Revelation specifically mentions from each of the twelve tribes.
 
Good points but the passage in Revelation specifically mentions from each of the twelve tribes.
Please review the tribes in Revelation and show me the same exact list in the OT for the 12 tribes. I think you will not find an exact match.

In other words, close but no cigar 🙂

Dan
 
Please review the tribes in Revelation and show me the same exact list in the OT for the 12 tribes. I think you will not find an exact match.

In other words, close but no cigar 🙂

Dan
I don’t have a Bible in front of me at the moment so I’m saying this from memory. I believe the tribe of Dan does not appear in Revelation. Sorry, Dan. 😉 It was replaced with one of the half-tribes. I’ve read that this was because Judas Iscariot came from teh tribe of Dan.

At any rate, Rev still mentions the twelve tribes.
 

Take your pick of a list​

In the Hebrew Bible (the Christian Old Testament), the Israelites are described as descendents of the twelve sons of Jacob (whose name was changed to Israel in Gen 32:28), the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham.

The phrase “Twelve Tribes of Israel” (or simply “Twelve Tribes”) sometimes occurs in the Bible (OT & NT) without any individual names being listed (Gen 49:28; Exod 24:4; 28:21; 39:14; Ezek 47:13; Matt 19:28; Luke 22:30; Acts 26:7; and Rev 21:12; cf. also “Twelve Tribes of the Dispersion” in James 1:1). More frequently, however, the names are explicitly mentioned.

The Bible contains about two dozen listings of the twelve sons of Jacob and/or tribes of Israel. Some of these are in very brief lists, while others are spread out over several paragraphs or chapters that discuss the distribution of the land or name certain representatives of each tribe, one after another. Surprisingly, however, each and every listing is slightly different from all the others, either in the order of the names mentioned or even in the specific names used (e.g., the two sons of Joseph are sometimes listed along with or instead of their father; and sometimes one or more names is omitted for various reasons). A few of the texts actually have more than 12 names! Upon closer analysis, one can discover several principles for the ordering and various reasons for the omission or substitution of some of the names, as explained in the notes below the following tables. In some cases, however, the reasons are not so obvious, leaving us to wonder about the many variations.

Jacob’s twelve sons are first mentioned in the order of their births (to four different mothers) in the Book of Genesis (29:31–30:24 & 35:16-20). For easier analysis, they are distinguished by colored highlighting in the table below:

Leah (elder wife): 1) Reuben, 2) Simeon, 3) Levi, 4) Judah; later also 9) Issachar and 10) Zebulun - (shades of red)
Bilhah (Rachel’s slave): 5) Dan, 6) Naphtali - (light blue)
Zilpah (Leah’s slave): 7) Gad, 8) Asher - (light green)
Rachel (younger wife): 11) Joseph, 12) Benjamin - (shades of yellow)
[Manasseh & Ephraim, sons of Joseph, are often listed separately; in some later texts, the half-tribe of Manasseh is further divided into its eastern and western halves.]
Gen 29–30, 35 Gen 35:22-26 Gen 46:8-27 Gen 49:1-27 Exod 1:1-5 Num 1:5-15 Num 1:20-54 Num 2:3-29 Num 7:1-88 Num 10:11-28 Num 13:4-15 Num 26:5-50
Reuben Reuben Reuben Reuben Reuben Reuben Reuben E: Judah Levi ] Judah Reuben Reuben
Simeon Simeon Simeon Simeon Simeon Simeon Simeon E: Issachar Judah Issachar Simeon Simeon
Levi Levi Levi Levi Levi Judah Gad E: Zebulun Issachar Zebulun Judah Gad
Judah Judah Judah Judah Judah Issachar Judah S: Reuben Zebulun Levi-G+M ] Issachar Judah
Dan Issachar Issachar Zebulun Issachar Zebulun Issachar S: Simeon Reuben Reuben Zebulun Issachar
Naphtali Zebulun Zebulun Issachar Zebulun Ephraim Zebulun S: Gad Simeon Simeon Manasseh/Js Zebulun
Gad Joseph Gad Dan Benjamin Manasseh/Js Js/Ephraim Mid: Levi ] Gad Gad Ephraim Js/Manasseh
Asher Benjamin Asher Gad Dan Benjamin Manasseh W: Ephraim Ephraim Levi-K ] Benjamin Ephraim/Js
Issachar Dan Joseph Asher Naphtali Dan Benjamin W: Manasseh Manasseh Ephraim Dan Benjamin
Zebulun Naphtali Benjamin Naphtali Gad Asher Dan W: Benjamin Benjamin Manasseh Asher Dan
Joseph Gad Dan Joseph Asher Gad Asher N: Dan Dan Benjamin Naphtali Asher
Benjamin ] Asher Naphtali Benjamin Joseph Naphtali Naphtali N: Asher Asher Dan Gad Naphtali
. . . . . omit: Levi Levi ] N: Naphtali Naphtali Asher omit: Levi omit: Levi
. . . . . . . . . Naphtali . .

Num 34:19-28 Deut 27:12-13 Deut 33:1-29
Josh 13–19 Josh 21:4-8 1 Chr 2:1-2 1 Chr 2–7 1 Chr 12:24-38 1 Chr 27:16-22 Ezek 48:1-29 Ezek 48:30-34 Rev 7:5-8
Reuben ] Bl-Simeon Reuben Reuben Judah Reuben Judah Judah Reuben Dan N: Reuben Judah
Gad ] Bl-Levi Judah Gad Simeon Simeon Simeon Simeon Simeon Asher N: Judah Reuben
Manasseh-E ] Bl-Judah Levi Manasseh-E Benjamin Levi Reuben Levi Levi Naphtali N: Levi Gad
Judah Bl-Issachar Benjamin Judah Ephraim Judah Gad Benjamin Aaron ! Manasseh E: Joseph Asher
Simeon Bl-Joseph Joseph Ephraim Dan Issachar Manasseh-E Ephraim Judah Ephraim E: Benjamin Naphtali
Benjamin Bl-Benjamin Zebulun Manasseh-W Manasseh-E Zebulun Levi Manasseh-W Issachar Reuben E: Dan Manasseh
Dan Cr-Reuben Issachar Benjamin Issachar Dan Issachar Issachar Zebulun Judah S: Simeon Simeon
Manasseh-W Cr-Gad Gad Simeon Asher Joseph Benjamin Zebulun Naphtali Levi ] S: Issachar Levi
Ephraim Cr-Asher Dan Zebulun Naphtali Benjamin Dan Naphtali Ephraim Benjamin S: Zebulun Issachar
Zebulun Cr-Zebulun Naphtali Issachar Manasseh-W Naphtali Naphtali Dan Manasseh-WE Simeon W: Gad Zebulun
Issachar Cr-Dan Asher Asher Reuben Gad Manasseh-W Asher Benjamin Issachar W: Asher Joseph
Asher Cr-Naphtali . Naphtali Gad Asher Ephraim Reuben Dan Zebulun W: Naphtali Benjamin
Naphtali . . Dan Zebulun . Asher Gad omit: Gad Gad . .
omit: Levi . omit: Simeon omit: Levi omit: Levi . omit: Zebulun Manasseh-E omit: Asher . . omit: Dan

Notes on Each Passage:
 
I don’t have a Bible in front of me at the moment so I’m saying this from memory. I believe the tribe of Dan does not appear in Revelation. Sorry, Dan. 😉 It was replaced with one of the half-tribes. I’ve read that this was because Judas Iscariot came from teh tribe of Dan.

At any rate, Rev still mentions the twelve tribes.
But not the SAME 12 tribes. Also Levi is listed as one of the 12. There are other differences, but this one is very significant. Your position is that these are **literal **Jews based on **the **12 tribes. You said:
the passage in Revelation specifically mentions from each of the twelve tribes.
However, the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned and there never was a tribe of Joseph.

The only evidence for your position has been refuted, so there is no support for your conclusion.

Dan
 
Fromm www.catholic-resources.org And here are the notes for the listsNotes on Each Passage:

Gen 29:31–30:24 and 35:16-20 - the births of the first eleven sons are mentioned in chronological order, along with the meanings of their names; the last son, Benjamin, is born significantly later.
Gen 35:22-26 - briefly lists the names of the 12 sons of Jacob, grouped by their respective mothers: Leah, Rachel, Bilhah, and Zilpah.
Gen 46:8-27 - lists the 70 members of Jacob’s extended family who went to live in Egypt: Jacob’s sons (grouped by their mothers: Leah, Zilpah, Rachel, Bilhah), along with their sons and even a few grandsons; aside from the mothers, only three other women are named (Leah’s daughter Dinah, Asher’s daughter Serah, and Joseph’s Egyptian wife Asenath); the total is 70, “not counting the wives of Jacob’s sons” (46:26)
Gen 49:1-27 - just before dying, Jacob blesses his twelve sons with various words, in a slightly different order than the previous lists.
Exod 1:1-5 - a brief list of “the sons of Israel” who migrated to Egypt; the same order as Gen 35:22-26, except that Joseph is mentioned last, because he “was already in Egypt.”
Num 1:5-15 - a brief list of leading men, one from each tribe, who are to assist Moses and Aaron in taking a census of all the Israelites; for the first time, Ephraim and Manasseh are listed separately for the descendents of Joseph; the tribe of Levi is omitted, as explained at the end of the chapter.
Num 1:20-46 & 47-54 - the completed census, reporting the number of fighting-age men in each tribe; curiously, Gad is now listed third, but otherwise the order is the same as the previous list; vv. 47-54 explain that the Levites were not to be included in the census, since they have a special responsiblity for the Tabernacle.
Num 2:3-29 - the arrangement of the encampment in the desert is prescribed: three on each side (E, S, W, N), with the Levites and the meeting tent in the middle; the four camps are named after Judah, Reuben, Ephraim, and Dan, with two other tribes associated with each one, respectively.
Num 7:1-88 - after the Tabernacle is set up, the leaders of the twelve tribes present offerings, one each on twelve consecutive days, in the same order as listed in 2:3-29, except that the introduction mentions the Levites as the ones receiving the offerings brought by all the other tribes.
Num 10:11-28 - the Israelites break camp in a very orderly fashion, identical to Num 2:3-29 except for the position of the Levites: the camp of Judah (with their 2 associated tribes) goes first, then the Gershon and Merari clans of Levites carry the Tabernacle, then the camp of Reuben; at midpoint, the Kohath clan of Levites carries the sacred objects for the Tabernacle, followed by the camps of Ephraim and Dan.
Num 13:4-15 - twelve men, one from each tribe except Levi, are chosen to reconnoiter the land of Canaan; the order is similar to Num 1:5-15, with two minor reversals.
Num 26:5-50 - a second census of fighting-age men is reported in the same order as the first census (Num 1:20-46), except for the reversal of the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim, both of which are still explicitly identified as the descendants of Joseph.
Num 34:19-28 - after the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and half of Manasseh are settled on the East side of the Jordan river, one leader from each of the remaining 9-1/2 tribes is to work with Eleazar (priest) and Joshua (new leader after Moses) to apportion among themselves the land of Canaan (West of the Jordan).
Deut 27:12-13 - Moses says that six tribes “shall stand on Mount Gerizim to pronounce blessings over the people,” while the other six tribes “shall stand on Mount Ebal to pronounce curses”; the list includes both Levi and Joseph, but the order is different than any previous text.
Deut 33:1-29 - just before his death, Moses blesses eleven of the tribes of Israel; the order is totally unfamiliar, and curiously Simeon is omitted.
Josh 13–19 - the division of the Promised Land among the twelve tribes is described in detail, beginning briefly with the 2-1/2 tribes East of the Jordan (Reuben, Gad, and 1/2 of Manasseh), followed by greater detail about the 9-1/2 tribes West of the Jordan.
Josh 21:4-8 - each of the tribes of Israel gives several cities to the Levites, in four divisions: the Kohathite descendants of Aaron (from Judah, Simeon & Benjamin); the other Kohathite clans (from Ephraim, Dan & half-Manasseh); the Gershonite clans (from Issachar, Asher, Naphtali & half-Manasseh); the Merarite clans (from Rueben, Gad & Zebulun).
1 Chr 2:1-2 - a brief list of the 12 sons of Israel; similar to the order of Gen 35:22-26, except that Dan is placed before Joseph (why?).
1 Chr 2–7 - very long genealogies covering the time span from the patriarchs down to the Babylonian exile; the tribe of Judah is covered first and in greatest detail (ch. 2-3; because of King David and the Chronicler’s own Judean context); ch. 4 covers the southern tribes: Judah (again!) & Simeon; ch. 5 the 2-1/2 eastern (Transjordan) tribes; 5:27–6:66 the various Levite clans; 7:1-40 most of the other northern tribes, but only briefly and omitting Zebulun (why?).
1 Chr 12:24-38 - thousands of soldiers from each tribe assemble at Hebron to swear allegiance to David as the new King; the tribe of Judah is first and the 2-1/2 Transjordan tribes are last, but the rest is in an order different from anything prior (why?)
1 Chr 27:16-22 - a brief list of 13 (!) leaders of the tribes of Israel at the time of King David; Levi and Aaron are curiously listed separately, as are the eastern and western halves of Manasseh, but Gad and Asher are omitted (why?)
Ezek 48:1-29 - an idealized division of the land among the tribes of a New Israel, with seven tribes in the north, the tribe of Levi administering a sanctuary and sacred city in the middle, and the remaining five tribes in the south.
Ezek 48:30-34 - the new sacred city has twelve gates named after the twelve sons of Jacob, three on each side (N, E, S, W)
Rev 7:5-8 - the only list in the New Testament of the twelve tribes; John hears that 144,000 Israelites have been “sealed” for salvation, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes; this list curiously lists both Manasseh and Joseph (but not Ephraim), and omits Dan (why?).
 
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