16 yo son says he is agnostic

[JRKH]

Ya got him for two more years, then boom, gone. If you give on Sunday obligation as a family you have already lost. He is expected to attend school, and Mass. He may or may not have mortal sin on any given day, but allowing him to commit one with your tacit approval is irresponsible parenting. The Church commands us to attend Mass, should we do any less for our own children?
There is no weekly battle if it isn’t up for discussion. I’m sure this young man would rather play video games Monday through Friday with his friends instead of go to school but somehow with most kids, there they are in school, cracking open a biology book and studying things that are just a complicated and boring as a hour long Mass. I expect a 16 year old to bathe do chores, and act like part of a family which means Going to mass with the Family.
10-1 the dad doesn’t go every Sunday. In cases like this it is common for the teenager to even think that it is an option not to go if there is someone else not going.

Your points about what is expected (school, study, chores - and church) are good ones, as is the idea about “tacit approval” of a mortal sin by the parent. I hadn’t considered that angle. Allowing the minor child to miss mass might be considered a sin on the parent…though this would need to be discussed with a good confessor.

That said though - The son has obviously already committed a mortal sin all on his own by rejecting God. This is a fact that cannot be disputed. He has cut himself off from salvation. No amount of purely external action such as church attendance will change that. Of course it might help - if there are good sermons and if the parents seek to have good and thoughtful conversations with the lad in between time.

We pray that he turn his face back to God.

Peace
James

 

[BobCatholic]

Interesting idea Bob,

How would you respond when he says - “Well the Church has one set of “programming” and secular society has another. I have been exposed to both and have made my choice…So you see I HAVE thought independently…”.

Peace
James

He has the Church doing programming by people who voluntarily chose to be taught. While secular society forces their programming down everyone’s throat without a choice.

That’s the big difference.

People voluntarily choose to be part of the Catholic Church. There is no such choice to be part of the secular society.

 

[JRKH]

BobCatholic,
To review here…The conversation between you and the 16 y.o. goes like this:
The 16 yo: “I’m no longer Catholic. I want nothing to do with the Church or with God.”

BobCatholic: “Congratulations, the programming has been successful. Modern secular society hates God and wants to deny his very existence, so they go around trying to program the young kids into losing their faith. Schools. Courts. TV. Radio. Internet. Everywhere you go, the programming is there. I only hope you will have the courage to think independently of society’s programming.”

The 16 yo: “Well the Church has one set of “programming” and secular society has another. I have been exposed to both and have made my choice…So you see I HAVE thought independently…”.

Now to this you are responding with…

He has the Church doing programming by people who voluntarily chose to be taught. While secular society forces their programming down everyone’s throat without a choice.

That’s the big difference.

People voluntarily choose to be part of the Catholic Church. There is no such choice to be part of the secular society.

So he responds with…
The 16 yo: How was I “voluntarily taught”? I have been forced to go to church, forced to go to religious ed classes, raised in this home where you (my parents) have forced me to pray at meals and before bed blah blah blah…
How is this programming any different than what you accuse the secular society of doing?
You say that you want me to think independently, but it appears you only want me to think independently of the world - not independently of you.

How do you respond…??

P.S. I think what we are doing here is good. It could be helpful to the OP and others…

Peace
James

 

[BobCatholic]

So he responds with…
The 16 yo: How was I “voluntarily taught”? I have been forced to go to church, forced to go to religious ed classes, raised in this home where you (my parents) have forced me to pray at meals and before bed blah blah blah…
How is this programming any different than what you accuse the secular society of doing?
You say that you want me to think independently, but it appears you only want me to think independently of the world - not independently of you.

How do you respond…??

P.S. I think what we are doing here is good. It could be helpful to the OP and others…

Peace
James

My answer is this: When you are 18 and living on your own, you are free to leave your religion behind, and I’m sure you are going to do so. UNTIL THEN, You are under my jurisdiction, you are under my responsibility, and as long as that is the case, you carry the same burdens I do and follow the same rules I do. As your parent I make a lot of decisions for your own good. I chose your diapers. I chose your meals. I chose your medical care. I chose your clothes. I chose your education. I make choices every day for your own good, whether you like it or not. That’s parenting. Regardless of which religion one practices, parenting involves the parent making the choices and the child not having any. This is a universal truth.

Once you are 18 and on your own, you will not be free to leave the secular society behind. You will not be free to ignore secular society’s rules and what they think. They will impose their beliefs on you and you have no choice in the matter. You will only hear one set of beliefs being preached to you day after day. It will be secular. Morally relativistic. You have no choice in the matter. If you decide to disagree with certain politically correct beliefs, you will be punished, fined, or have other sanctions imposed on you. You will lose your job. You will have your business closed down. You will be arrested. You can sue for violations of freedom of religion, but you reject religion, so that option is not there.

You will have no choice in the matter.

 

[Moore11]

My answer is this: When you are 18 and living on your own, you are free to leave your religion behind, and I’m sure you are going to do so. UNTIL THEN, You are under my jurisdiction, you are under my responsibility, and as long as that is the case, you carry the same burdens I do and follow the same rules I do. As your parent I make a lot of decisions for your own good. I chose your diapers. I chose your meals. I chose your medical care. I chose your clothes. I chose your education. I make choices every day for your own good, whether you like it or not. That’s parenting. Regardless of which religion one practices, parenting involves the parent making the choices and the child not having any. This is a universal truth.

Once you are 18 and on your own, you will not be free to leave the secular society behind. You will not be free to ignore secular society’s rules and what they think. They will impose their beliefs on you and you have no choice in the matter. You will only hear one set of beliefs being preached to you day after day. It will be secular. Morally relativistic. You have no choice in the matter. If you decide to disagree with certain politically correct beliefs, you will be punished, fined, or have other sanctions imposed on you. You will lose your job. You will have your business closed down. You will be arrested. You can sue for violations of freedom of religion, but you reject religion, so that option is not there.

You will have no choice in the matter.

Surprisingly I disagree with this approach. While it carries good parental authority it does absolutely nothing to teach and engage the young man in his faith which as JPII pointed out is the “primary responsibility of the parent” So, while this lays down the law, and I am all in favor of laying down the law, it does little or nothing to educate and help this young man. You must also have a dialogue and education or you are right, at 18 he will have no faith.

 

[BobCatholic]

Surprisingly I disagree with this approach. While it carries good parental authority it does absolutely nothing to teach and engage the young man in his faith which as JPII pointed out is the “primary responsibility of the parent” So, while this lays down the law, and I am all in favor of laying down the law, it does little or nothing to educate and help this young man. You must also have a dialogue and education or you are right, at 18 he will have no faith.

The teaching of the faith will require the parent to become a Catholic apologist. The teen will come up with objections, and the parent must come up with answers. They have 2 years to do this and do it right. Even then it may not be enough. When someone is motivated by ahem “pelvic issues” - logic and reason are helpless to convince them.

I think that the parents has underestimated the effect of secular society on their kid. So they went on auto-pilot, or let down their guard. As a result, the kid is temporarily lost. Temporarily, I say because hope exists.

There are three ways to learn. Books. From others mistakes. And experience.

Sometimes a kid must put his tongue on the frozen lamp post to learn the lesson the hard way. And right now, he’s sticking out his tongue.

 

[JRKH]

Surprisingly I disagree with this approach. While it carries good parental authority it does absolutely nothing to teach and engage the young man in his faith which as JPII pointed out is the “primary responsibility of the parent” So, while this lays down the law, and I am all in favor of laying down the law, it does little or nothing to educate and help this young man. You must also have a dialogue and education or you are right, at 18 he will have no faith.

I agree with this…

Bob’s approach is not likely to produce further productive dialogue. It will most likely going to simply cause a hardening of positions.

Peace
James

 

[chazk728]

my 16yo son says he isnt catholic. about a year ago during confirmation classes he decided he isnt catholic. its not that he wants to attend a different church he wants nothing to do withGod at all. Amongst many issues, attending mass has become a weekly struggle for our family. he doesnt want to attend. so far we are making him go with us but it creates alot of tension every weekend. making him go with us only seems to make him more angry. Im not sure whats going on in his mind- but the control factor seems to be a big part. we can make him go to mass but we cant make him believe. the more we make him go to mass and other church related events the madder he gets. Besides praying what we should we do? he refuses to talk to a priest, or anyone else. Help!

Praying for you. This must be a huge cross to bear. Pray for your son. Your prayers and example may have more impact on him than a 16 year old is willing to show or admit to you. God bless

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Personally, I would engage him in a discussion about God and the Catholic faith. Make him logically defend his position, and not just once, many times.

I would like to see more people logically defending the Catholic position instead of this loosey-goosey poetic whimpering and logical fallacies. When I was a teen and in the same situation as this young man, such people were few and far between! Actually, there were zero of them…

 

[BettyBoop416]

I would like to see more people logically defending the Catholic position instead of this loosey-goosey poetic whimpering and logical fallacies. When I was a teen and in the same situation as this young man, such people were few and far between! Actually, there were zero of them…

Thing is, there is no way to “logically defend the Catholic position.” Or any other religious position. It’s all a matter of faith. You either believe it or you don’t. I was raised in a Catholic home, went to 12 years of Catholic school, don’t miss mass unless I can’t pick my head up off the pillow. In all that time, I have yet to hear a single logical argument that holds water. But I keep going back because…well because that’s just what I do. If I was raised in a Baptist home, or a Jewish home, or a Muslim home, I’d probably be following one of those traditions instead. It has nothing to do with logic.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Thing is, there is no way to “logically defend the Catholic position.” Or any other religious position. It’s all a matter of faith. You either believe it or you don’t. I was raised in a Catholic home, went to 12 years of Catholic school, don’t miss mass unless I can’t pick my head up off the pillow. In all that time, I have yet to hear a single logical argument that holds water. But I keep going back because…well because that’s just what I do. If I was raised in a Baptist home, or a Jewish home, or a Muslim home, I’d probably be following one of those traditions instead. It has nothing to do with logic.

Then we have a huge problem because, as I said earlier on another thread, eternal life becomes a game of Russian Roulette. “Spin the barrel and pick a faith and hope you got it right.”

If such were the case, then I would doubt Catholicism. For that would mean that if there is a God, he is not just. And for Catholicism to be correct, God must be just.

Therefore, in order for Catholicism to be correct, it must be defensible with human reason.

 

[RACJ]

Challenge him to read Lee Strobel’s “The Case for Christ” and “The Case for Creation”. Both phenomenal books which illustrate why Christians have both science and logic on our side. The big problem with kids losing their faith is that not only does popular culture deride God and Christianity, but it subtly pushes for close-mindedness and outright hostility toward the great faiths which have undergirded and protected our society. Rob

 

[Moore11]

Thing is, there is no way to “logically defend the Catholic position.” Or any other religious position. It’s all a matter of faith. You either believe it or you don’t. I was raised in a Catholic home, went to 12 years of Catholic school, don’t miss mass unless I can’t pick my head up off the pillow. In all that time, I have yet to hear a single logical argument that holds water. But I keep going back because…well because that’s just what I do. If I was raised in a Baptist home, or a Jewish home, or a Muslim home, I’d probably be following one of those traditions instead. It has nothing to do with logic.

This is just plain false. Apologetics is rooted in giving a “reason” for or and explanation of. It is actually from the Greeks who were very big into logic and rhetoric. If your faith is not something that you can logically defend then it isn’t faith at all. You may be confusing logic for “proof” but even then there are “proofs of the faith.” This is one of the tragedies of modern thought and education. We ignore the “logic” and rhetoric" parts of a classical education in favor of a more messy and “shotgun” approach.
God help us if being Catholic isn’t logical. I guess all those great minds of science and medicine and art were wrong but I’m sure a 16 year old boy is more rooted in Logic than Michaleangelo, Thomas Moore, Augustine, C.S. Lewis, and one of the most logical and cerebral men alive today Pope Benedict XVI. I’m sure these men would not agree that logic and faith are separate. In fact some of them have written books to the opposite, including the Pope, I’d start there.

PS
Careful, the phrase “I went to 12 years of Catholic school” is usually not followed by Truth about the faith.

 

[JRKH]

Challenge him to read Lee Strobel’s “The Case for Christ” and “The Case for Creation”. Both phenomenal books which illustrate why Christians have both science and logic on our side. The big problem with kids losing their faith is that not only does popular culture deride God and Christianity, but it subtly pushes for close-mindedness and outright hostility toward the great faiths which have undergirded and protected our society. Rob

 

[gerryk]

Thanks for all your suggestions. A bit more about our family. We go to church every Sunday (dad-me) also. My wife and I teach ccd to teens at our church. My wife is very involved choir etc. our daughter is 15 and very involved, she just became a Eucharistic minister. My son is smart and knowledgeable about our faith. He doesn’t go to communion. We told him if you don’t believe it’s real - you shouldn’t take it. He even understands that the church would teach he is likely to end up in hell if things don’t change.
I just don’t know what started this whole thing. He has many catholic friends at school and at church. As far as I know none of his other friends are brain washing him.
Admittedly I have been somewhat of a control freak/ parent. During confirmation class they told the students this was their choice, they didn’t have to become confirmed if they didn’t want to be. And that was it! It was his choice and he decided against it. I think he thought if he isn’t catholic then he wouldn’t have to attend mass etc. He has always disliked going to mass. So… Now he is very stubborn and refuses to talk about it without it turning into a cursing screaming argument- on his part. He is in control of his beliefs. Logic and discussion aren’t likely to work with him right now. I pray every day. His name is Nathan. Plz pray for him too!

 

[Moore11]

Thanks for all your suggestions. A bit more about our family. We go to church every Sunday (dad-me) also. My wife and I teach ccd to teens at our church. My wife is very involved choir etc. our daughter is 15 and very involved, she just became a Eucharistic minister. My son is smart and knowledgeable about our faith. He doesn’t go to communion. We told him if you don’t believe it’s real - you shouldn’t take it. He even understands that the church would teach he is likely to end up in hell if things don’t change.
I just don’t know what started this whole thing. He has many catholic friends at school and at church. As far as I know none of his other friends are brain washing him.
Admittedly I have been somewhat of a control freak/ parent. During confirmation class they told the students this was their choice, they didn’t have to become confirmed if they didn’t want to be. And that was it! It was his choice and he decided against it. I think he thought if he isn’t catholic then he wouldn’t have to attend mass etc. He has always disliked going to mass. So… Now he is very stubborn and refuses to talk about it without it turning into a cursing screaming argument- on his part. He is in control of his beliefs. Logic and discussion aren’t likely to work with him right now. I pray every day. His name is Nathan. Plz pray for him too!

I will pray for him by name. And starting Good Friday there is a great opportunity with the Divine Mercy Chaplet, which has a day specifically oriented towards your situation. Might I suggest before everyone goes to bed at night that you gather in the living room and say this as a prayer. You might just be surprised at what would happen.
I want to reiterate my earlier suggestion of engaging him in conversation about the faith. At dinner, in the car, whenever, talk about the amazing gifts God gives us every day. Be joyful with the Gospel every single day when you are talking to him.
You classify yourself as a control freak parent yet your son has no problem cursing at you when you discuss religion with him? Something isn’t right here. Either you are not assessing the type of parent you are accurately or there is a way bigger issue than faith here and it is manifesting itself in this matter but there may be something else entirely that is the root of this behavior.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Thanks for all your suggestions. A bit more about our family. We go to church every Sunday (dad-me) also. My wife and I teach ccd to teens at our church. My wife is very involved choir etc. our daughter is 15 and very involved, she just became a Eucharistic minister. My son is smart and knowledgeable about our faith. He doesn’t go to communion. We told him if you don’t believe it’s real - you shouldn’t take it. He even understands that the church would teach he is likely to end up in hell if things don’t change.
I just don’t know what started this whole thing. He has many catholic friends at school and at church. As far as I know none of his other friends are brain washing him.
Admittedly I have been somewhat of a control freak/ parent. During confirmation class they told the students this was their choice, they didn’t have to become confirmed if they didn’t want to be. And that was it! It was his choice and he decided against it.** I think he thought if he isn’t catholic then he wouldn’t have to attend mass etc.** He has always disliked going to mass. So… Now he is very stubborn and refuses to talk about it without it turning into a cursing screaming argument- on his part. He is in control of his beliefs. Logic and discussion aren’t likely to work with him right now. I pray every day. His name is Nathan. Plz pray for him too!

But he IS Catholic! Whether he wants to acknowledge it or not. He can never NOT be Catholic! He can be lapsed, even in heresy or apostasy, but he can’t undo the sacraments and become “not Catholic” again.

And, you say he has always disliked going to Mass? That is not really the issue. We do a lot of things in life that we may not “like,” such as going to school every day, speaking nicely to people we may not get along with, going to work every day, cooking meals, cleaning, etc. etc. etc.

Dad, you need to spend more time with him. Find the time to spend with him. Don’t preach at him but do try to find out if there is something more that he is looking for, or if he’s really just shirking his responsibilities to be lazy in bed or whatever.

I don’t know, it sounds like you’ve been more of a “hands-off” kind of dad than a control freak.

 

[BobCatholic]

Thing is, there is no way to “logically defend the Catholic position.” Or any other religious position. It’s all a matter of faith.

Pacal would disagree with that viewpoint. So would Thomas Aquinas. And Agustine. And Saul of Tarsus (later called Paul) Even Artistotle argued on behalf of theism. And so many others would disagree. Also, look at Peter Kreeft.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I empathize with your dilemma, as adolescence is such a challenging time. This being Holy Week, I am moved to wish that he was old enough to see Gibson’s The Passion of The Christ, followed by a heart-felt discussion with you about the nature of Christ’s great Sacrifice, and His love for humanity. However, I see that the USCCB recommends it only for adults, mostly due to concern about scenes which, although true and historic, are scenes that are difficult for young ones to view.

That said, he is so young. Has he had the experience of visiting aging relatives or helping at a homeless shelter night sponsored by the parish? My wish is that in expanding his world view beyond that which he may have in the high school setting, his heart may open to see that many people do believe, that they have great faith.

If there is some way to expand his narrow understanding, be it books about St. Thomas More, visits to Church- founded shelters, Catholic films which inspire, I would wish that for him. We parents do have to take a stand. Christ’s sacrifice cannot be dis-respected.

I might tell a rebellious teen that the world is not divided into B.C. (Before Christ) and A.D., (after Our Lord.) without good reason. Whether he has the faith to believe it or not, it is the Truth. Life is not meant to be a series of self-centered, sensual activities. Unfortunately, adolescence seems to be nothing but that. I might tell such a teen that while he has every right to question things, that history teaches us the Truth of our Faith.

Surrounded by a culture where vampires abound as heroes, and entertainment is purveyed 24/7, I still believe a serious talk about values and faith can inspire. I would be honest and tell him that I was seriously concerned by his attitude in the light of what we know from history. If he has not been taught that history, now is the time to introduce him to it.

We will all be accountable for what we choose to believe. Secular humanism may assault us on every side, but we must tell our young people that without Christ we are in darkness. Your son may not have seen serious illness or death yet, but these things will come to everyone. How will he face these things? All alone? Or with Christ within him?
*
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”* This is good news! Ask him what it is he really hopes for, for his future? A life of endless questioning, godless, roaming, sensual, self centered searching?

Or something heroic?

• Tell him about our heros*. Christ first and foremost, and surround him with books or excerpts from Aquinas, St. Thomas More, St. Catherine of Sienna, Therese of Lisieux, all the great Saints and Doctors of the Church, books about miracles at Lourdes, Church History. I would say to him, “while you are reading all this, feel free come to me with your questions and we will do as the scriptures say:* ‘Come, let us reason together.’”*

Above all, surround him with love. The parable of the Prodigal Son is also gloriously about the Father of the story. Please tell him that story, and that he, as your son, is always beloved, no matter what his condition. I hope you might have a beautiful day somewhere in nature with him, to sit and talk to him about all these things. As long as you embrace him and make sure he knows he is your beloved son, he might come to understand the love of the Father Who sent His Son into the world to save us from ourselves, from our doubts, from a world that assaults us on every side with temptations and destruction.

I wish you the best, for you and your beloved son.
Blessings and prayers,
Kathryn Ann

 

[twoangels]

my 16yo son says he isnt catholic. about a year ago during confirmation classes he decided he isnt catholic. its not that he wants to attend a different church he wants nothing to do withGod at all. Amongst many issues, attending mass has become a weekly struggle for our family. he doesnt want to attend. so far we are making him go with us but it creates alot of tension every weekend. making him go with us only seems to make him more angry. Im not sure whats going on in his mind- but the control factor seems to be a big part. we can make him go to mass but we cant make him believe. the more we make him go to mass and other church related events the madder he gets. Besides praying what we should we do? he refuses to talk to a priest, or anyone else. Help!

Since he already took confirmation classes, I’m assuming he declined getting confirmed. I hope you did not pressure him to go through the motions of confirmation. I would focus on his right to not go through the motions of something he doesn’t believe. Instead I would emphasis house rules. For instance, perhaps after Mass, you take your family out to breakfast, out for a picnic or some other family activity. I may give him the choice between going to Mass or having a list of expectations. If he wants to sleep in on Sunday, he is expected to have all his school work completed by Saturday evening. If he doesn’t, obviously he’ll be doing some of his schoolwork on Sunday so he might as well do it while you’re at Mass and the house is quiet. During the summer, it could be chores. Either he gets all his chores done Saturday Evening or he does them without distraction Sunday morning. So basically, spend time with the family on their religious day of rest and submit to being bored for an hour, or contribute to the family by helping out around the house.

You have every right to take him along with you merely to prevent him from destroying the house or having free access to the internet and TV. This will likely reveal that his true issue is that he just wants to be a lazy teenager who primarily wants to sleep in and doesn’t understand why he can’t. He probably is not actually thinking very intelligently about why he doesn’t believe in God. Right now its inconvinent and he sees no reason for it. From here, he will likely protest, but it’ll be harder for him to assert that this is about you shoving religion down his throat. It’ll help him stop relating mere responsibilities he doesn’t like to the faith. My youngest brother did that all the time. Restrictions and rules were all clumped together into religion. He’s going to have these inconveniences in life whether he believes in the Christian God or not. He needs to understand that. Once he understands that, it might open the door to him being able to see a vision of Christ helping us to bear our crosses in life. It no longer is obligation, but a life of grace.

It may take awhile, but as he becomes an adult, he can possibly see that you were more than a religious zealot. He can possibly see how your faith has positively influenced you to instill good values in him and that your faith was a source of inner strength. You have to work against the image that you feeling that you’ve been brainwashed to put unnecessary restrictions on him and use religion as an excuse to be overbearing. Have faith in God and in grace. That will be a far greater witnesses to Him than arguing.