19 Kids and Counting

[Sophie_Lawrence]

I really find it puzzling how so many people attribute things to the Duggars that I have never seen. Their treatment of the cousin who is a young woman and the support of her going to Nashville to attempt a singing career seems not to fit in with everyone’s cultlike accusations.

I like the Duggars and yes, I am sure the whole thing is reality tv’d up and manipulated but a happy family where the children respect the parents and remain chaste. All while somewhat selling out to a network that ultimately decideds the content of the show belies Jim Bob’s accused power trip.

Geesh have you seen the other freak shows out there? Sister Wives, or anything on E! At least it is a program I can always watch with my children and wife and my kids don’t take away that it is oppressive or unhealthy at all. They just see probably what the TV wants you to see. A happy family with good wholesome values.

Man, sometimes I think there would be a thread about how the Waltons were incestuous for the bed scene. Or how Charlie in Charlie and the Chocolate factory was about swinging grandparents.

Well, Little House on the Prairie was a little bit odd when Laura and Albert would share the upstairs bedroom. Albert could have slept in the living area by the fireplace on a cot.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

My parents grew up in a little village in Sicily, where everyone was Catholic.

Years ago, if a young man was interested he would send word to the family of the young lady. Then if she was interested she would send word back. Usually the mothers would do this initial back and forth.

Then they would court, be chaperoned most of the time, be allowed to attend Mass together, perhaps be allowed to go to very public places together, accompanied by a chaperone. (often a younger brother or sister) Then they would marry.

I can’t imagine all those generations of weddings being invalid.

I think there was perhaps some attraction before sending word. A furtive glance at mass or walking by the intended’s home, hoping to see them at the window.

I’m not saying all courtships result in invalid marriages, but as you yourself surmise, in a “little village”, I think couples likely did have a chance to get to know each other and realize there was an attraction before the official courting process began.

I also doubt that most prospective grooms in that era had to sell their home businesses and move a plane ride away from their communities, and work as a hired hand for their intended bride’s fathers before proposing, the way Ben Seewald did. The degree of his dependence on Jim Bob Duggar’s goodwill at the time he proposed, is what really makes me question of the validity of that marriage.

I can also see some of the daughters seeing marriage as a way out, as a way to “graduate” to managing their own household instead of being treated as a child, because that’s what the Duggar way of life seems to be, that unless you are either financially independent and/or married, you are still a child subject to the authority of your parents. And from what I understand of Catholic annulments, if someone gets married primarily to escape an oppressive or even abusive home life, that can indeed be grounds for annulment.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m not saying all courtships result in invalid marriages, but as you yourself surmise, in a “little village”, I think couples likely did have a chance to get to know each other and realize there was an attraction before the official courting process began.

I also doubt that most prospective grooms in that era had to sell their home businesses and move a plane ride away from their communities, and work as a hired hand for their intended bride’s fathers before proposing, the way Ben Seewald did. The degree of his dependence on Jim Bob Duggar’s goodwill at the time he proposed, is what really makes me question of the validity of that marriage.

I can also see some of the daughters seeing marriage as a way out, as a way to “graduate” to managing their own household instead of being treated as a child, because that’s what the Duggar way of life seems to be, that unless you are either financially independent and/or married, you are still a child subject to the authority of your parents. And from what I understand of Catholic annulments, if someone gets married primarily to escape an oppressive or even abusive home life, that can indeed be grounds for annulment.

Are you basing this off the three married duggar kids so far? Is your sample size 3/19?

 

[petitfleur]

Are you basing this off the three married duggar kids so far? Is your sample size 3/19?

The two oldest Bates kids come to mind. Both married, and I think they are teenagers too.The Bates kids are all pretty much live at home. One son was very involved over in a Gothard seminary- since the scandal broke I am not sure if they distanced themselves.I think a third is either engaged or courting. Anna's sister Priscilla same scenario her husband is David Waller. I used these since they all have been on 19 Kids and Counting.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The two oldest Bates kids come to mind. Both married, and I think they are teenagers too.The Bates kids are all pretty much live at home. One son was very involved over in a Gothard seminary- since the scandal broke I am not sure if they distanced themselves.I think a third is either engaged or courting. Anna’s sister Priscilla same scenario her husband is David Waller. I used these since they all have been on 19 Kids and Counting.

It is so anecdotal. My wife married me when she was 19. She had no father to ask.

My cousin (one of two siblings) Married young and remained chaste in the engagement, and had their first kiss at their wedding. The other sibling? A homosexual man married multiple “partners” The parents are irreligious. And over half thier kids either is in a cult (according to some) Or are “fighting for the basic human right of sodomy”

Hmmm. For my daughters, I’ll take a guy who asks me to date her, takes steps to ensure chastity is upheld and seeks our (name removed by moderator)ut on relationship matters because they trust and respect our experiences.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Requirement to be chaste until marriage.
Teachings about when to have sex down to specific days of married people.
A patriarchy that rules in matters of faith and sex.
An examination by not only the families but also the clergy of the fitness of the couple to be married and to copulate.
A rule to ensure chastity that one must be truthful about all sexual impurity that one must speak openly to a Father about it?
A Church that has to have special rules because of sexual abuse.

A Church that allows a 14 year old to Marry.

Yup, sounds like a cult.

oops. We are all a part of it.

 

[masondoggy]

Well, Little House on the Prairie was a little bit odd when Laura and Albert would share the upstairs bedroom. Albert could have slept in the living area by the fireplace on a cot.

Shoot, I never even thought about that until you mention it. yes, ewwwww. Albert could’ve slept downstairs where Carrie always slept.

 

[petitfleur]

Shoot, I never even thought about that until you mention it. yes, ewwwww. Albert could’ve slept downstairs where Carrie always slept.

Do you recall “The Story of Silvia”? The girl that got raped and pregnant? That was disturbing.

 

[masondoggy]

Do you recall “The Story of Silvia”? The girl that got raped and pregnant? That was disturbing.

I actually watched that episode recently. Yes, very sad and disturbing. And probably was more a reality back then than we realize.

 

[petitfleur]

It is so anecdotal. My wife married me when she was 19. She had no father to ask.

My cousin (one of two siblings) Married young and remained chaste in the engagement, and had their first kiss at their wedding. The other sibling? A homosexual man married multiple “partners” The parents are irreligious. And over half thier kids either is in a cult (according to some) Or are “fighting for the basic human right of sodomy”

Hmmm. For my daughters, I’ll take a guy who asks me to date her, takes steps to ensure chastity is upheld and seeks our (name removed by moderator)ut on relationship matters because they trust and respect our experiences.

I married young too. Can’t understand what your gay cousin has to do with this. I am not my father’s property so my husband did not need his permission. My daughters are not my property, my oldest is 16. She has not had a boyfriend yet, but she talks a lot to me about her friends and the boys she has crushes on her interactions with them her friends situations, we talk about how to handle situations all the time. (she is Incredibly shy). I am not completely sure how we will handle her dating. We will want to meet him of course, there will be strict rules, and supervision She has consistantly showed me she can make good descisions. I feel I can trust her judgment, and so far she comes to me when she need help on what to do and say in situations.
I don’t feel so confident with my 13 year old yet, so we will handle her differently. I respect my kids. If they break my trust, we tighten up the reins.
To be ancedotal my parents were really strict and I dated behind their back and did all sorts of reckless things, I was very careful and never got caught.its not because my parents were naive, or stupid, I was supervigelent and crafty. I don’t think my anecdote proves or disproves anything, but thought since you were throwing them in I would too.

 

[petitfleur]

I actually watched that episode recently. Yes, very sad and disturbing. And probably was more a reality back then than we realize.

I had to look that up to make sure I didn’t imagine it. I think you are right.

 

[petitfleur]

Requirement to be chaste until marriage.
Teachings about when to have sex down to specific days of married people.
A patriarchy that rules in matters of faith and sex.
An examination by not only the families but also the clergy of the fitness of the couple to be married and to copulate.
A rule to ensure chastity that one must be truthful about all sexual impurity that one must speak openly to a Father about it?
A Church that has to have special rules because of sexual abuse.

A Church that allows a 14 year old to Marry.

Yup, sounds like a cult.

oops. We are all a part of it.

Not sure the relevance, but ok. You want to be snarky, whatever, it seems to me you are taking our harsh criticsm of the Duggars personally. Why does it bother you so much?

 

[Sarcelle]

Requirement to be chaste until marriage.
Teachings about when to have sex down to specific days of married people.
A patriarchy that rules in matters of faith and sex.
An examination by not only the families but also the clergy of the fitness of the couple to be married and to copulate.
A rule to ensure chastity that one must be truthful about all sexual impurity that one must speak openly to a Father about it?
A Church that has to have special rules because of sexual abuse.

A Church that allows a 14 year old to Marry.

Yup, sounds like a cult.

oops. We are all a part of it.

I think you missed the point.

None of the posters are against chastity or honoring the parent’s guidance when choosing or discerning a spouse.

Some of the posters who have disagreed with the Duggars are objecting to the fact that in the Christian Patriarchy movement of Bill Gothard and Doug Philips, adult women are treated as minors.

I don’t think the Catholic Church teaches that adult women are supposed to be treated as minors.

Now,why the snark?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think you missed the point.

None of the posters are against chastity or honoring the parent’s guidance when choosing or discerning a spouse.

Some of the posters who have disagreed with the Duggars are objecting to the fact that in the Christian Patriarchy movement of Bill Gothard and Doug Philips, adult women are treated as minors.

I don’t think the Catholic Church teaches that adult women are supposed to be treated as minors.

Now,why the snark?

Snark? Feel free to bash away…

 

[Evania]

I think you missed the point.

None of the posters are against chastity or honoring the parent’s guidance when choosing or discerning a spouse.

Some of the posters who have disagreed with the Duggars are objecting to the fact that in the Christian Patriarchy movement of Bill Gothard and Doug Philips, adult women are treated as minors.

I don’t think the Catholic Church teaches that adult women are supposed to be treated as minors.

Now,why the snark?

Amen!
I also thought it was a stretch to compare the two…

 

[petitfleur]

I gave an example of a conservative Catholic homeschooler to compare the differences earlier in the thread (Ray Guerendi) as a way to illustrate the differences, and the issue is not about homeschooling, being very conservative, or limiting your kids exposure to the secular world. Ray is more conservative than I am, but i don’t think he is doing anything bad. It was completely ignored..

 

[petitfleur]

Snark? Feel free to bash away…

I feel like English is your second language and you can’t follow the conversation. Your responses don’t make sense. I am being blunt here, and not trying to be snarky. Do you not think the post being referred to was snarky?
I also wonder at your use of sodomite. I have never heard it used in a respectful manner. I think it was unnecessary to use that word. Being gay is not considerd a sin. Having a sexual relationship is. I raise my eyebrows when someone who makes such a point of how religious they are behaves like that. I find it hard to take them seriously.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think I will unsubscribe from this judgefest…

 

[Evania]

No need to leave Hoosier. Your opinion is respected. I was a longtime fan of the Duggar’s reality show. I don’t hate them, but I’ve personally stopped watching them. Something has seemed to change with them. I think a lot of posters here have brought up legitimate concerns, not to bash them as people, but because we’re seeing some things that just don’t seem right. If you read the comments in secular forums about the Duggar’s, it’s downright disgusting what people say about them. I’ll be the first to defend them against comments like that…I won’t even list examples of what’s out there. It’s horrible stuff. That’s not what posters are doing here. Anyway, I just want to apologize if I came across to you as if I were judging you for your opinion because I’m not. God Bless!

 

[jediliz]

used to watch this show (especially when Josie was born and in the NICU) but I stopped…I watch THE LITTLE COUPLE sometimes (if I remember to turn it on when its season is airing).

The Duggars are good people, but I do think sometimes the ‘no pants for girls’ goes too far.(I can understand SHORTS…but jeans or slacks?)…I remember an episode where they were going to be either volunteer fire fighters or EMTs…and they wanted to turn the jumpsuit into a skirt…seriously…if you are going to be a fire fighter…and you are a girl…the suit is to PROTECT YOU.

Not even sure which denomination they belong to because they do “house church”…is it a southern baptist/evangelical/fundamentalist hybrid? I think the only time you see them in a “real” church was weddings. Never heard a word about baptism…so you never see any special ceremonies where the kids “testify”…

When Josh and Anna got married, he had a used car lot and for awhile, before she was pregnant with Mackyenzie, I think Anna worked in the office at the lot. Now Josh has the job with Family Research Council and they live in D.C. They have three children right now.

I really hope Michelle has stopped with the ‘I want to be pregnant again’ stuff…she’s a grandma now…concentrate on raising the children you have and be grandma to the grand kids is what I say.

I think one of the girls that recently got married is trained as a midwife, so unless they are both pregnant right away (the one that got married earlier this summer is pregnant) at least they might be able to get a little income from that.