19 Kids and Counting

[Evania]

Yet you guys champion my country as a Catholic voice in an otherwise pagan-secular corner of Asia.

I’m not championing anything so therefore I’m not “you guys”. Husbands who beat their wives aren’t following God’s Word. Period. You’re talking in circles. You started this conversation condemning these men who you witnessed doing this, now you’re defending them? I think you’re just plain confused at this point.

Only if they removed themselves from my conference rooms. You really think it’s so irrelevant? You know it says a lot that I don’t see a lot of parents with large families where I work (if at all). Because really, I don’t see how you can have that many kids and not have it interfere with a job that requires full-time attendance. Heck, Jim Bob only started having kids after setting himself up with enough money to invest in that large family. And even then, he’s no Warren Buffett. Really telling. That.

It must be very frustrating to you that people don’t consult you and decide to listen to God instead. You sound very upset about that. Like I said before. I don’t know about Jim Bob, but I’m friends with a great many large families, and they are happy, the father is involved, and the mother doesn’t feel burdened. You don’t like it? They don’t care.

You’re the one who asked if I lived in a third world country all my life. I don’t know about you but we don’t like it when people question the truth of where we came from.

I was genuinely curious, so put down your dukes.

Nothing? Yeah, read up on his life after he established his order. Please do not tell me his life was so simple then. He traveled extensively and met with royalty. Yeah. That’s a beggar all right. For someone many people champion as a man wholly sustained by divine providence, much of that providence took in the form of people wealthier and more influential than he was.

Back up your claims. Tell me what he kept personally for himself. He begged for the poor, and since there was no real middle class in St. Francis’s day, who else would he beg from? Would it make sense to you, if he begged for the poor from the poor? Come on now…

Right, and the fact that you didn’t witness means you can claim the exact opposite? That’s my point! It’s rather sad that out of all those children, Ben Franklin was the only one who really made history. That’s what I mean about being lost in a hive. That’s what it means when I say that when you live in a life as crowded and anti-independent as that, you losing anything that could take you to the same level of greatness. If you ask me, I find it more saddening that these people didn’t get to share in Ben’s spotlight. Surely, being human beings, they deserved their own moment?

Okay, well what about you? Have you or your siblings made history? You had a smaller family than his, however you have more modern means and faster ways of communication at your fingertips. If not, than you were brought up, in your words, in a hive mentality in a smaller family with not even ONE person attaining greatness.

When said couple have fans like you who act like they’re the ideal and think all of humanity should follow suit.

I’ve stated repeatedly that I’m not a fan of the Duggar’s. You are the one that keeps bringing them up. Just because I believe in a couple’s right to discern how big their family should be, under the guidance of God, does not mean I feel everyone should have a large family. I do believe that everyone should discern, but if there is a serious reason to postpone pregnancy, than they should do so. Would you like for me to reference the many places in which I said so? You on the other hand, believe in a contraceptive mindset which is against Church Teaching.

Seeing the kind of resources needed to just raise one kid, I would say a spade is a spade.

Of course, you would believe that. That is coming from someone who believes kids shouldn’t resort to hand me downs, that St. Francis was a rich guy in poor man’s clothing, and that every large family on earth is as poor as those in third-world countries.

Right, get back to me when you find a family like the Duggars but they live like the Hiltons.

So in your mind everyone is either dirt poor or insanely rich?
Who says they want to live like the Hilton’s? Maybe they are happy where they’re at, and with what they have.

 

[Evania]

Wow, and you accuse me of making assumptions and generalizations. You still not getting my point at all.

It’s not just about the possessions. It’s about how those possessions are manifestations of who we are. We are not defined by our ‘stuff’ but that stuff is born from the stuff inside us that grew from having the independence, space, and free thought that no Duggar child could compare.

I agree with you that our “stuff” is born from the stuff inside us. I believe that is what Jesus was referring to when he taught:

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.“But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal, for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Yet we create charities to eliminate poverty. The irony of this religion gets starker every day.

Charities do not exist to make the poor into people who are wealthy. It exists to help those who are less fortunate by providing them the tools they need to better their lives and provide some short term relief while they do so. It doesn’t exist in order to spread the wealth evenly among nations and individuals.

It’s not disdain. It’s fact. I ask you again, would you like to come down here and live among the very poor you worship?
Well then why aren’t you? Go ahead! Do it now! I’m sure the airports have a lot of discounts for overseas travel this season. I’d really like to see you live in the squalor and then tell me this is how a human being should live.

Guess what? Someone greater than me already did! Jesus Christ. If you believe Jesus is God, then please give the reason why He didn’t choose to have a better lifestyle? Why did He choose to be born in a dirty cave/stable amongst squalor and then be placed in the feeding trough as a newborn baby? Why didn’t he arrange things differently? Would it be impossible for Him as God, to arrange for Him to be born in the Inn? Why did He do that? Second of all, I referenced a saint who did just that and you mocked him. St. Francis, Mother Teresa amongst other saints, gave up a life of wealth, status and privilege to do just that! Why? Because the lesson wasn’t lost on them.

Because really, even my Jesuit education taught me better than that.

I doubt that your Jesuit education taught you to refer to the poor as “reduced shells of human beings”, as poor mothers as “smelling as street refuse”, and as poor children singing Christmas carols as “street urchins”, and yet thoroughly missing the lesson of Jesus when He taught, “Whatever you do to the least of my breathren, you do unto Me.” I truly doubt that your Jesuit education taught you to not consult God in prayer in big decisions, decisions as important as bringing another child into your family.
Yes, I agree with you. I’m sure your Jesuit education taught you better than that.

So reckless procreation is God’s will now?

Like I said before…Only if you think prayerfully discerning is reckless procreation.

You two should start club.

I agree! Kmkarbo, let’s start an EWTN fan club!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You’re talking in circles. You started this conversation condemning these men who you witnessed doing this, now you’re defending them? I think you’re just plain confused at this point.

No ma’am. You’re the one’s who’s confused. That’s what happens when you’d prefer to see the trees rather than the forest itself. You should’ve figure out by now that I don’t speak of just you but of the culture your argumentation represents.

It is the same culture who has a sickening admiration for my country purely for its alleged religiosity and ‘fidelity’ to breeding as if it were ‘God’s will.’ The same culture who looks to the Duggars as an example of the God-ordained family and shuns comfort, good living, and class as ‘worldly sins.’

If the 1% are half the reason why there’s poverty in the world, I’d dare say this culture of pro-poor family is the other half.

It must be very frustrating to you that people don’t consult you and decide to listen to God instead.

Yes, especially when they whine about us not hiring them because they’re too busy to commit to an initiative. You want to eat and get paid but expect us to provide for your entire brood. Yeah that’s a fair deal bub.

Folks like that might as well just move to China.

I was genuinely curious, so put down your dukes.

Ever wondered where your curiosity came from? I sense somebody who doesn’t really grasp the things I’ve had to see. You don’t see me questioning the big happy families you encounter.

Neither do your happy encounters give you a right to say my rejection of them as a model is un-Christlike.

Back up your claims. Tell me what he kept personally for himself. He begged for the poor, and since there was no real middle class in St. Francis’s day, who else would he beg from? Would it make sense to you, if he begged for the poor from the poor? Come on now…

Wikipedia would suffice and I’m sure you’re not lazy to look up common knowledge. I never said Francis kept things for himself. If anything, you’ve just proven my point. The very rich and wealth you despise are the same resources Francis turned to. The poor don’t beg from the poor so what happens when the rich, the wealthy, and the influential all of a sudden sunk to their level after ‘discerning’ that they should have as many mouths to feed as possible?

And really, to say there was no ‘real’ middle class back then is really an irrelevant question of semantics. The fact is had I existed back in his time, I would very well be among those with enough coin to give away. Where do you think that coin came from? That’s right, it’s the fruit from my decision to keep my family small and our decision to ‘store up treasure on earth.’

Alas people like Duggar fans still scorn us, condemn us for our free lifestyle, and call us sickening. Yeah. So much for gratitude.

If not, than you were brought up, in your words, in a hive mentality in a smaller family with not even ONE person attaining greatness.

Ma’am, even my own mother (the same mother who came from a family much larger than ours) admitted that we’ve done a lot more as professionals compared to her. And mind you, we’re all just getting started. Seriously, you’re not giving me much of a contest. Better for you to have compared me to my father’s family that was half the size of my mother’s. And when I think about, seems about the only ticket to a better life my aunts and uncles had was to actually break apart that seemingly rustic picture of a large Catholic family.

In other words, they ceased being the Duggars. Go figure.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Would you like for me to reference the many places in which I said so? You on the other hand, believe in a contraceptive mindset which is against Church Teaching.

I repeat: That is just your assumption. Care to stop calling the kettle black now?

That is coming from someone who believes kids shouldn’t resort to hand me downs.

Because a kid deserves better? Oh yeah!

So in your mind everyone is either dirt poor or insanely rich?

No ma’am. It’s either they’re really content or their contentment is an excuse to be bitter and pour hate on those who have it better.

Charities do not exist to make the poor into people who are wealthy. It exists to help those who are less fortunate by providing them the tools they need to better their lives and provide some short term relief while they do so.

Yeah, short-term. That’s exactly the ironic problem I’m talking about. Do you really think a weak, short-term financial strategy is going to guarantee a decent life? Living hand-to-mouth isn’t living at all. It’s a pitiful existence where you’re barely alive everyday. I cannot, for the life of me, call that God-ordained. Do you see me saying they should be aborted? Hardly! In fact, I am only going further in the opposite direction! The poor know they deserve better lives than that. No human deserves that sort of life and using God to justify it is just as sorry an excuse as the one used by pro-choicers.

Guess what? Someone greater than me already did! Jesus Christ.

I challenged you to live up to this supposed image you have of Christ living in the gutter. Don’t try to change the subject. Why aren’t you? Why are you still here? I should even accuse you of using the luxury that is the internet instead of taking up on your own standard that is, “Poverty rooooocks!”

I doubt that your Jesuit education taught you to refer to the poor as “reduced shells of human beings”, as poor mothers as “smelling as street refuse”, and as poor children singing Christmas carols as “street urchins”, and yet thoroughly missing the lesson of Jesus when He taught, “Whatever you do to the least of my breathren, you do unto Me.”

Really? Because here’s a note from that education: Human dignity. What I see on the streets? That is not dignifying. What I have to tolerate and keep from stealing my newly bought lunch? That is not dignifying. Thus, I conclude that the poor really only live shells of what should be authentic human life.

There is no nobility in poverty.

I am glad that my language hurts the pro-poverty camp. Because really, they are only a sham solution that actually adds to the problem that it really is.

Like I said before…Only if you think prayerfully discerning is reckless procreation.

Repeat again: That is your assumption.

 

[Evania]

No ma’am. You’re the one’s who’s confused. That’s what happens when you’d prefer to see the trees rather than the forest itself. You should’ve figure out by now that I don’t speak of just you but of the culture your argumentation represents.

It is the same culture who has a sickening admiration for my country purely for its alleged religiosity and ‘fidelity’ to breeding as if it were ‘God’s will.’ The same culture who looks to the Duggars as an example of the God-ordained family and shuns comfort, good living, and class as ‘worldly sins.’

If the 1% are half the reason why there’s poverty in the world, I’d dare say this culture of pro-poor family is the other half.

In other words, you enjoy stereotyping and are basing your argument on as much.

Yes, especially when they whine about us not hiring them because they’re too busy to commit to an initiative. You want to eat and get paid but expect us to provide for your entire brood. Yeah that’s a fair deal bub.

May I ask how much you have provided for the Duggar’s? There are countless large families that are not on any governmental assistance, so if you don’t provide for “these large broods” why are you wringing your hands over providing for them?

Ever wondered where your curiosity came from? I sense somebody who doesn’t really grasp the things I’ve had to see. You don’t see me questioning the big happy families you encounter.

Sure, my curiousity has came from trying to understand where you were coming from. And yes, I do see you questioning the big happy families I’ve encountered because so far in all of your posts you have painted ALL big families as poor, miserable, and over burdened. Sorry bud, that doesn’t match my experience of all big families, so your argument doesn’t hold water to me and others who either have or who have encountered such families.

Neither do your happy encounters give you a right to say my rejection of them as a model is un-Christlike.

Sure, I have a right to say your rejection of them is UN-Christlike. You have mocked, ridiculed and misrepresented your fellow man.

Wikipedia would suffice and I’m sure you’re not lazy to look up common knowledge. I never said Francis kept things for himself. If anything, you’ve just proven my point. The very rich and wealth you despise are the same resources Francis turned to. The poor don’t beg from the poor so what happens when the rich, the wealthy, and the influential all of a sudden sunk to their level after ‘discerning’ that they should have as many mouths to feed as possible?

Are you kidding? Wikipedia would suffice? You do know that Wikipedia can be altered by people such as you and me right? I hope that neither of us is lazy enough to consider Wikipedia as a reliable source. I’m not at all saying that money is the root of all evil, however the love of money is. There is a big difference between the two. Again, I will repeat that not all big families are dirt poor, so how does your point apply to them? Would they have enough money to have some fun perks like go to Disneyworld, take a cruise, buy their kid the latest gaming console if they decided to not get pregnant with little Susie or Johnny? Probably, however what matters the most to these families? I would bet that Susie or Johnny are far more valuable to them than keeping the stores in business. That’s what Jesus meant when he talked about treasure. Now, if mommy and daddy are barely scraping by and can’t even afford to feed themselves, would it be wise to bring a baby into their situation? Absolutely not. When you discern, you always have to take stock of your life.

And really, to say there was no ‘real’ middle class back then is really an irrelevant question of semantics. The fact is had I existed back in his time, I would very well be among those with enough coin to give away. Where do you think that coin came from? That’s right, it’s the fruit from my decision to keep my family small and our decision to ‘store up treasure on earth.’

Ok, St. Francis had seven siblings and his father was considered wealthy in his day. So why are you assuming your “coin” to him would be due to you having a small family?

Oh, and if you have an issue with Jesus’s words above, take it up with Him. He is God though, so I’ll suspect you’ll lose.

Alas people like Duggar fans still scorn us, condemn us for our free lifestyle, and call us sickening. Yeah. So much for gratitude.

Alas, no. The “Duggar people” don’t scorn you. You scorn THEM. They aren’t sickened by you. You are sickened by THEM. And why in the world do you think those with large families should show you gratitude? You do not provide anything to them! All you provide is judgment. A vast many large families are NOT on welfare, and you are pontificating on what they should do in the bedroom. Please forgive them for not kissing your rubies.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

In other words, you enjoy stereotyping and are basing your argument on as much.

Says the woman who sticks too hard to the image of a large, rustic happy family as if that’s the only picture there is in the world.

There are countless large families that are not on any governmental assistance, so if you don’t provide for “these large broods” why are you wringing your hands over providing for them?

Only in America apparently.

And yes, I do see you questioning the big happy families I’ve encountered because so far in all of your posts you have painted ALL big families as poor, miserable, and over burdened. Sorry bud, that doesn’t match my experience of all big families, so your argument doesn’t hold water to me and others who either have or who have encountered such families.

Again: Only your assumption.

Sure, I have a right to say your rejection of them is UN-Christlike. You have mocked, ridiculed and misrepresented your fellow man.

By calling them as they are? Ma’am, my country has enough history with religious and clergy saying the poverty of a large family is a blessing from God. No ‘mockery’ you perceive on my end could even compare to such imperialistic farce!

I would bet that Susie or Johnny are far more valuable to them than keeping the stores in business.

Again, you are deliberately ignoring the elephant in the room. You think valuing a human being is limited to keeping them fed and clothed? The fact that I grew up without competing too much on the same level as the Duggar children gives me more appreciation for my parents and my siblings. Why? Because they gave each us a larger share than what a child in a crowded family could ever dream of.

It’s the intrinsic value of a human being that requires the need to provide more ‘stuff.’ Because from my experience, I see more people who are only forcing themselves to be happy with their lot (all the while bottling up their discontent in the fear of ‘offending God’).

Honestly, the way you frown upon ‘stuff’ is precisely a fine point of critique I always jab at Catholicism. The less stuff you have the better? Right. I’m sure God enjoys the penny-pinching abuse that attitude justifies. Maybe the Magi should’ve just gifted Christ with hay, sticks, and cloth for more diapers eh?

Ok, St. Francis had seven siblings and his father was considered wealthy in his day. So why are you assuming your “coin” to him would be due to you having a small family?

I was under the impression that we were talking about Francis as he was begging during his religious life, not his family life.

(And seven? Compared to the Duggars? Please, they won’t concern me as much as Jim Bob ever does.)

You do not provide anything to them! All you provide is judgment.

Pff, tell that to my taxes.

A vast many large families are NOT on welfare, and you are pontificating on what they should do in the bedroom. Please forgive them for not kissing your rubies.

Sorry ma’am but maybe you really should move here. You’d realize how many broods are kissing the rubies of the rich and powerful whether they like to or not.

And I repeat, the only scorn I see is coming from you when I simply call poor people as I see them. Not my fault you’re uncomfortable with the inhumanity of their conditions.

 

[Evania]

Because a kid deserves better? Oh yeah!

What is wrong with hand me downs? Why buy a new shirt when you have one that is perfect except for the fact that an older sibling has worn it before? So in other words:Supporting a large family is bad, but supporting a store for frivolous reasons:Good.
That would only make sense to someone who has an inordinate love for money.

Yeah, short-term. That’s exactly the ironic problem I’m talking about. Do you really think a weak, short-term financial strategy is going to guarantee a decent life? Living hand-to-mouth isn’t living at all. It’s a pitiful existence where you’re barely alive everyday. I cannot, for the life of me, call that God-ordained. Do you see me saying they should be aborted? Hardly! In fact, I am only going further in the opposite direction! The poor know they deserve better lives than that. No human deserves that sort of life and using God to justify it is just as sorry an excuse as the one used by pro-

I actually agree with you here, which is why I said they should discern. Discerning is in no way saying that it is God-ordained. Discerning is taking stock of your life and asking God, “What is Your Will for my life?” If a mother and father could barely afford to feed themselves, I would think that we both know that it would hardly be beneficial to bring a child into their present situation. However, is that the case for all large families? No.
Not all large families are living hand to mouth.

I challenged you to live up to this supposed image you have of Christ living in the gutter. Don’t try to change the subject. Why aren’t you? Why are you still here? I should even accuse you of using the luxury that is the internet instead of taking up on your own standard that is,

How do you know anything about what I have or haven’t seen or if I haven’t done exactly what you’ve suggested in my life? How do you know what I’m doing here, which is where God has placed me, in helping the poor? I can tell you this: I have not, and will never ever refer to the poor or treat them in any other way than complete and utter respect. I will never talk down to them using the language that you have used to describe them.

Really? Because here’s a note from that education: Human dignity.

How are you treating them with Human Dignity when you mock and ridicule them?

I am glad that my language hurts the pro-poverty camp.

Except that it doesn’t hurt anyone other than the poor themselves.

Repeat again: That is your assumption.

No, it’s Church Teaching.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

That would only make sense to someone who has an inordinate love for money.

Yes, because I think a person deserves something of good quality it means I have an inordinate love for money and not the people I spend it on. Thank you for continuously highlighting the mentality that I hate so much about the Church.

Not all large families are living hand to mouth.

They sure are here. Whether you’re going to assume I use it to discount your opposite experience is the only reason why we’re going around in circles. You act like the people you know will automatically alleviate the poverty I have to constantly witness.

How do you know anything about what I have or haven’t seen or if I haven’t done exactly what you’ve suggested in my life?

You would cease posting here indefinitely and give time that could be spent with the poor people you seem to love so much.

I have not, and will never ever refer to the poor or treat them in any other way than complete and utter respect. I will never talk down to them using the language that you have used to describe them.

What do you think I should say about how they live? Certainly nothing good! Oh but for someone who thinks poverty is so awesome, I’d more likely bet you insult them by trying to sugarcoat their situation. All I do is call their condition for what it is: Undesirable.

You say I insult them by saying they deserve better. Yeah. True Catholic logic, that.

No, it’s Church Teaching.

Ah so bringing out as many children as physically possible is Church teaching? Got it. I’ll refer to you the next time someone says the Church isn’t for bearing kids to the limit that you can feed them hand-to-mouth.

 

[Evania]

Says the woman who sticks too hard to the image of a large, rustic happy family as if that’s the only picture there is in the world.

Why is your experience with large families more valid than mine?

By calling them as they are? Ma’am, my country has enough history with religious and clergy saying the poverty of a large family is a blessing from God. No ‘mockery’ you perceive on my end could even compare to such imperialistic farce!

Oh please! Just because the Church calls having children a blessing, does not mean it celebrates the reality of children living in poverty. Good job at twisting the Church’s position around to fit your argument.

Again, you are deliberately ignoring the elephant in the room. You think valuing a human being is limited to keeping them fed and clothed? The fact that I grew up without competing too much on the same level as the Duggar children gives me more appreciation for my parents and my siblings. Why? Because they gave each us a larger share than what a child in a crowded family could ever dream of.

And you are deliberately ignoring the fact that I’ve addressed the elephant in the room in practically every one of my posts. I have repeatedly said that a couple should discern before adding to their family. If a family cannot possibly feed themselves, it would not be wise to add a child into their present living situation. You are advocating that a couple not pray to God for guidance on this matter. What is the alternative if not a contraceptive mindset which is against Church Teaching.

It’s the intrinsic value of a human being that requires the need to provide more ‘stuff.’

It may be helpful to our conversation to define what is meant when we each say “stuff”.
If by stuff, you mean food, clean water, clothing, and sanitary living conditions, then yes, I agree wholeheartedly! If by stuff, you mean a flashy new car, an affluent neighborhood, the latest fashions, the newest gaming consoles and cell phones and electronics then I vehmently disagree. It is not the instrinsic value of a human being that requires the need to provide the hottest appliance, trendiest fashion, coolest gadget etc. Jesus’s life showed otherwise.

Honestly, the way you frown upon ‘stuff’ is precisely a fine point of critique I always jab at Catholicism. Maybe the Magi should’ve just gifted Christ with hay, sticks, and cloth for more diapers eh?

At the other end of the spectrum, why not a cellphone, trendy threads, and a Play Station? Why not? Not like he had any brothers or sisters.

I was under the impression that we were talking about Francis as he was begging during his religious life, not his family life.

You stated that if you lived in the time of St. Francis, you would have fallen in the category of people who would have contributed a coin to him. You said this would be due to you having a small family. I said that wouldn’t neccessarily be true because his father would also be able to contribute and he produced a large family.

Pff, tell that to my taxes.

1)Your tax money isn’t going to the Duggar’s. Even if you did live in the U.S, they and many other large families are not on governmental assistance.
2) How much of your taxes are going to unwed moms of one or two children, who have been abandoned by the father? What about families of children that have multiple fathers? I’m not denying that you aren’t paying for some large families, but it would be interesting to see exactly who is benefitting the most.

Sorry ma’am but maybe you really should move here. You’d realize how many broods are kissing the rubies of the rich and powerful whether they like to or not.

Maybe you should move here. I bet you’ll be pleased to see that there are plenty of large families that don’t feel “burdened” by their children and are (gasp) actually happy that they made the choice to have them.

And I repeat, the only scorn I see is coming from you when I simply call poor people as I see them. Not my fault you’re uncomfortable with the inhumanity of their conditions.

Nope. I merely think that those who are poor deserve more respect than the terminology you used to describe them. Please reference the parts in the Bible in which Jesus does the same. No really…Go ahead. I’m waiting.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Why is your experience with large families more clod than mine?

I could reverse the question on you too ma’am. Guess what? The poor families I speak of aren’t getting any richer.

Oh please! Just because the Church calls having children a blessing, does not mean it celebrates the reality of children living in poverty.

Does not change historical reality. Good luck traveling back in time just to prove me wrong. Why does my experience disturb you so much? It really puts to question your experience with poverty.

You are advocating that a couple not pray to God for guidance on this matter. What is the alternative if not a contraceptive mindset which is against Church Teaching.

Great, along with false assumptions you put false dichotomies too.

It is not the instrinsic value of a human being that requires the need to provide the hottest appliance, trendiest fashion, coolest gadget etc. Jesus’s life showed otherwise.

Repeat: Tell that to the Magi. I guess the Blessed Mother should be shamed for not scolding those heathen astrologers for gifting her ragged Son instead of feeding other poor children.

At the other end of the spectrum, why not a cellphone, trendy threads, and a Play Station? Why not? Not like he had any brothers or sisters.

Because they weren’t invented yet. If you’re trying to make a joke, the only joke is you for trying (and failing) to use my argument against me.

You said this would be due to you having a small family. I said that wouldn’t neccessarily be true because his father would also be able to contribute and he produced a large family.

LOL! You think seven is large? Again, compared to the Duggars?

1)Your tax money isn’t going to the Duggar’s. Even if you did live in the U.S, they and many other large families are not on governmental assistance.

But the fact is I don’t live in the U.S. and over here, there are no Duggars. Just struggling squatters who don’t have a single clue on family planning (natural or otherwise). Yeah. Blessing indeed. A blessing born from my taxes to boot.

1. How much of your taxes are going to unwed moms of one or two children, who have been abandoned by the father? What about families of children that have multiple fathers?

How on earth can you have ‘multiple fathers!?’ Not only are you straying from the topic but now you’re reaching bizarro conclusions about human reproduction!

Maybe you should move here. I bet you’ll be pleased to see that there are plenty of large families that don’t feel “burdened” by their children and are (gasp) actually happy that they made the choice to have them.

Lulz, care to pay for my ticket?

Cuz unlike a lot of Americans apparently, I’m still working to afford global travel. Oh but then again, according to you, I’m sinning because I want to give myself and others that sort of ‘luxury.’

Please reference the parts in the Bible in which Jesus does the same. No really…Go ahead. I’m waiting.

I distinctly remember a parable where a rich king had a poor man thrown out for dressing too raggedly for his wedding feast. Might want to start there ma’am.

 

[Evania]

I could reverse the question on you too ma’am. Guess what? The poor families I speak of aren’t getting any richer.

Never said they were but that doesn’t negate the fact that my experience is just as valid.

Does not change historical reality. Good luck traveling back in time just to prove me wrong. Why does my experience disturb you so much? It really puts to question your experience with poverty.

Not at all. It just highlights your ability to twist the Church’s teaching around untruthfully, so you can attempt to make a point that doesn’t hold any weight.

Repeat: Tell that to the Magi. I guess the Blessed Mother should be shamed for not scolding those heathen astrologers for gifting her ragged Son instead of feeding other poor children.

Oh but wait…I thought you would approve. By having less children, wouldn’t that be a GOOD thing in your opinion? After all less mouths to feed, right?

LOL! You think seven is large? Again, compared to the

Why the unhealthy obsession with the Duggar’s? For someone who’s not a fan, you seem to know literally everything about them. By the way, you thought seven was large when I brought up that number in a previous post. Try to keep up!

But the fact is I don’t live in the U.S. and over here, there are no Duggars. Just struggling squatters who don’t have a single clue on family planning (natural or otherwise). Yeah. Blessing indeed. A blessing born from my taxes to boot.

Okay, well that’s funny because in all of your earlier posts you put ALL large families on blast, including the Duggar’s who don’t benefit from your tax money.

How on earth can you have ‘multiple fathers!?’ Not only are you straying from the topic but now you’re reaching bizarro conclusions about human reproduction!

If you don’t know how a woman can have children by multiple fathers, you need a crash course in human reproduction.

Cuz unlike a lot of Americans apparently, I’m still working to afford global travel. Oh but then again, according to you, I’m sinning because I want to give myself and others that sort of ‘luxury.’

Please copy and paste where I said that traveling is a sin. Thanks in advance! Oh wait…you can’t. I keep forgetting that I’m debating someone who likes to base his argument on faulty logic by twisting his opponents words around. Sigh.

I distinctly remember a parable where a rich king had a poor man thrown out for dressing too raggedly for his wedding feast. Might want to start there ma’am.

So you twist parables around too? Try again.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Never said they were but that doesn’t negate the fact that my experience is just as valid.

The fact is ma’am, your experience doesn’t make the poor folk any richer. Neither does it justify the unwarranted glorification of poverty that people use to excuse their unwillingness to provide better for themselves and for their families. If anything, you’ve just reiterated just how forced contentment is just darn awful.

Not at all. It just highlights your ability to twist the Church’s teaching around untruthfully, so you can attempt to make a point that doesn’t hold any weight.

Untruthful? Thanks for spitting in the face of hundreds of poor Filipinos who suffered under the yoke of Spanish rule because the Spanish used frailocracy to glorify their poverty.

Same spirit lives on today in people who oppose initiatives to control our shantytown populations.

Oh but wait…I thought you would approve. By having less children, wouldn’t that be a GOOD thing in your opinion? After all less mouths to feed, right?

LOL! If Christ was born in this time, you’d bet I’d expect the Magi to come with gifts even more expensive than a Playstation system or a holy edition set of My Little Pony. But the fact is ma’am, they didn’t have those at the time. More the point, it just goes to show that the Christ you worship wasn’t as squalid as you tell me He was. (He had a hooker splash perfume on his sandy feet for crying out loud! )

Why the unhealthy obsession with the Duggar’s? For someone who’s not a fan, you seem to know literally everything about them. By the way, you thought seven was large when I brought up that number in a previous post. Try to keep up!

Compared to the Duggars (which is the subject of thread), you’re just playing with numbers here. Not to mention I don’t even see what point you’re trying to drive anymore. You sure do a good job of ballet-dancing away from the elephants.

Okay, well that’s funny because in all of your earlier posts you put ALL large families on blast, including the Duggar’s who don’t benefit from your tax money.

You know for someone who fancies themselves a stickler for forum details, you’ve completely ignored the following facts (from the start).

1. I’m Filipino. I live in a Third World Country for pete’s sake.
2. I have not denied the generally improved conditions of even larger families in the U.S.
3. I do not see how the improved conditions of one country are going to help the lot of their struggling counterparts in regions that conservative Catholics champion as the Christian Voice in the Pagan Asian Wilderness.

If you don’t know how a woman can have children by multiple fathers, you need a crash course in human reproduction.

Oh so that’s what you meant. For a second there, you had me thinking of a child having multiple daddies. Might I suggest you take a crash course in English composition before you suggest me any education. Usually we just use the word ‘bastards’ to avoid any confusion.

Please copy and paste where I said that traveling is a sin.

Oh I can do better. I can quote a ton of instances where you happily make false pronunciations on my personal character, calling me greedy, money-obsessed, and disgusting, all for what? Because I like to gift and get ‘stuff.’

So you twist parables around too? Try again.

Translated: I am at a loss for words that Jesus actually made the rich to be good guys for once. I hope he doesn’t cite the parable of the rich landowner having those poor old vineyard workers punished for rising up against him. Ooh, ooh! And that poor man with the talents! Please no! Anything but the one where Our Lord actually called people to invest and make more of that hideous ‘stuff’!!!

 

[Evania]

The fact is ma’am, your experience doesn’t make the poor folk any richer. Neither does it justify the unwarranted glorification of poverty that people use to excuse their unwillingness to provide better for themselves and for their families. If anything, you’ve just reiterated just how forced contentment is just darn awful.

Look, I think the real problem you have is with the Word of God. All I have done was provide you what the Bible says, and for some reason it has left a bad taste in your mouth. That’s between you and God. I even provided examples from the lives of the saints, and for some reason that has angered you to the point that you felt the need to mock them. I support what the Church says about NFP, children etc, and your posts are increasing in frequency and vitriol with each response. I’m sorry but I will defend Church Teaching all day long. Do you have the time? I do

We do unapologetically oppose contraceptive initiatives to control your populations because to do so would require defying the Word of God and the Magisterium of the Church, who is the safeguard of the deposit of Truth. We also firmly oppose all forms of abortion and any and all measures of sterilization.

Oh so that’s what you meant. For a second there, you had me thinking of a child having multiple daddies. Might I suggest you take a crash course in English composition before you suggest me any education. Usually we just use the word ‘bastards’ to avoid any confusion.

Forgive me for reporting your post. Not only has your post violated forum rules, but I am tired of seeing you refer to others in such a crass manner.

Translated: I am at a loss for words that Jesus actually made the rich to be good guys for once. I hope he doesn’t cite the parable of the rich landowner having those poor old vineyard workers punished for rising up against him. Ooh, ooh! And that poor man with the talents! Please no! Anything but the one where Our Lord actually called people to invest and make more of that hideous ‘stuff’!!!

Thank you so much for referencing this parable as it’s the perfect one to prove my point! It sounds like you are overtly focused on the “monetary” speech in these stories and missed the fact that although the talent was money in the story, that it actually had a deeper meaning which is that Jesus was referencing the Kingdom of God. In it, He teaches that the lesson is that our lives belong to Him, and are not meant to only be lived according to our wishes. To some of the servants, He gave more “talents” to, but the third one buried his talent, and thus not sharing what God has so graciously given to him. You see, the talents, don’t neccessarily belong to the servants, just as what is given to us, is not meant to be kept for just us. Like the servant, Jesus is telling us we will all have to give an account to Him of all He has given us. Will we be like the first two servants, who shared what they had and thus increased it in the lives of others? Or will we be like the third servant who selfishly hid his, hoarding it and kept it to himself? We owe our lives and wealth to God, and likewise we will one day give an account for it.

Now, I will bid you goodnight. No worries though! I’ll be more than happy to engage you again tomorrow.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I support what the Church says about NFP, children etc, and your posts are increasing in frequency and vitriol with each response. I’m sorry but I will defend Church Teaching all day long. Do you have the time? I do

Wow, I feel so flattered that someone would rather waste time on me instead of helping the poor they claim to defend.

Sorry madam but you don’t alleviate poverty by changing my views. Just telling you in advance. The fact that you take offense and label everything I say as ‘vitriol’ says a lot about you as a reader and not me as an author.

We do unapologetically oppose contraceptive initiatives to control your populations because to do so would require defying the Word of God and the Magisterium of the Church, who is the safeguard of the deposit of Truth. We also firmly oppose all forms of abortion and any and all measures of sterilization.

Right, all because I used the word ‘reckless procreation.’ Again, more words that say a lot about your camp than who I am as a person.

And please, you do realize that the term ‘bastard’ originated in none other than the oh-so-Catholic Middle Ages?

Middle English: via Old French from medieval Latin bastardus, probably from bastum ‘packsaddle’; compare with Old French fils de bast, ‘packsaddle son’ (i.e. the son of a mule driver who uses a packsaddle for a pillow and is gone by morning).

• Oxford

Forgive me for reporting your post. Not only has your post violated forum rules, but I am tired of seeing you refer to others in such a crass manner.

LOL! Yet you call me disgusting and have repeatedly presumed that I care more about wealth than another person’s well-being. Practice what you preach ma’am. (And if we’re going to report, I’m going to cite this particularly nasty bit to the same authorities.)

Or will we be like the third servant who selfishly hid his, hoarding it and kept it to himself? We owe our lives and wealth to God, and likewise we will one day give an account for it.

Ma’am, I can easily construct the case that the people who pinch pennies for the sake of merely birthing more children are just as guilty of storing up and hoarding as the third servant. Instead of simply spacing and giving bigger shares to fewer mouths, one can say that the number of births can just be as valid a source of greed and spiritual pride.

 

[Evania]

Wow, I feel so flattered that someone would rather waste time on me instead of helping the poor they claim to defend.

I didn’t know someone couldn’t support the poor and post on Catholic Answers? Oh well…

1. I feel flattered that you responded to my post so quickly. You’ve been churning out responses faster than I can type, so I don’t know…it sounds like either something I’m saying is hitting a nerve or maybe you ARE starting to look with compassion on the plight of God’s poor which is awesome!
2. I don’t have to prove my charitable acts to you, and even if I needed to, how would I do so? Your answer was that I would cease posting here indefinitely. See the problem with that answer is: YOU are posting on here, and you claim to have such compassion on these people too AND you are living among them. If that’s the case, according to your “rules” of proof, I’m probably doing more than you are just by being here. That’s sad.

Right, all because I used the word ‘reckless procreation.’ Again, more words that say a lot about your camp than who I am as a person.

Hmmm…THIS is the elephant in the room you’ve been avoiding sir. Repeatedly. This is what you posted:

Same spirit lives on in people who oppose initiatives to control our shantytown populations.

What initiatives do you support?

And please, you do realize that the term ‘bastard’ originated in none other than the oh-so-Catholic Middle Ages?

Oh so then in your mind it’s a Catholic word simply because it was used in the Middle ages?

It doesn’t change the fact that it is insulting though, and is against forum rules.

Ma’am, I can easily construct the case that the people who pinch pennies for the sake of merely birthing more children are just as guilty of storing up and hoarding as the third servant. Instead of simply spacing and giving bigger shares to fewer mouths, one can say that the number of births can just be as valid a source of greed and spiritual pride.

I’m wondering if there’s a language barrier problem because I have told you many times my position on discernment when a couple is in poverty. I would be happy to list them all in order for you.

In regards to children and the spirit of poverty, my view matches the Church. I’m sorry that this offends you, but what did you expect? This is Catholic Answers. The posters here usually will defend Church Teaching which is great!

 

[Angela_Tate]

npatrol:

Thread purged of off-topic and agenda posts.
Topic is about the TV show “19 Kids and Counting”
Post if you have a comment on that.
Do not post about Bill Gothard or the quiverfull movement.
Do not post about church teaching on family planning.
Post with charity or not at all.