1962 Mass in English?

[didymus]

Was the Mass celebrated in English prior to the Novus Ordo?

I ask because I found an old Maryknoll Missal, copyright 1964 (so I assume it’s the TLM w/the revisions of Pope John XXIII) that has a section “The Latin Parts of the Mass” (all the way from preparatory prayers to final blessing) followed by a much longer section in English, “The Liturgy of the Mass”.

All the prayers are similar to the ones we hear today, but no “alternatives”, no short forms, e.g. it has the full Confetior – and Kyrie.

The prayers are all pre-desacrilisation if that makes sense. For instance (just one) the priest’s prayer before proclaiming the Gospel is:

Cleanse my heart and my lips, almighty God, as you cleansed the lips of Your prophet Isaiah with a burning coal. In your mercy so cleanse my lips that I may worthily proclaim Your holy Gospel.
Bless me, O Lord. The Lord be in my heart and on my lips, that I may worthily and fittingly proclaim His Gospel.
Amen.

The current prayer is obviously a Reader’s Digest version of the above.
It occurs to me that with all the to-ing and fro-ing over the new ICEL they could do worse than go with the English prayers and responses in this missal.
Btw, it gives “And with your spirit” as the response to “Peace be with you” though I didn’t see any “ineffables” lurking about

 

[WhollyRoamin]

It sounds like you’ve got a copy of an obscure Missal known as the '65 Mass. Not to oversimplify things, but it was largely a vernacular version of the TLM. People look back on it as a “transitional missal”, though it wasn’t really conceived as such at the time.

IMHO, it is the actual Mass of Vatican 2, since it carefully adheres to Sacrosanctum Concillium.

The '65 wasn’t widely used and exists basically only as a footnote in Liturgical history.

 

[WhollyRoamin]

The ineffables and gibbets would not appear in the Ordinary of the Mass, they’d be in the Propers… and I don’t know what calendar the '65 used. The innefables and gibbets appear during Holy Week, if you’ve got the complete Missal, check the readings leading up to Easter.

 

[SMHW]

Obscure? Maybe. But I dare say that this is the Mass that the younger half of the baby boomer generation remembers. Mass was commonly said in English when I was a child. Latin tended to be reserved for the Sunday “High Mass”.

 

[SMHW]

Was the Mass celebrated in English prior to the Novus Ordo?

I guess that depends on your definition of NovusOrdo.

The Mass was frequently in English in the mid 1960s. I can’t remember when we started actually using the newer translation. I imagine it wasn’t for a couple of years until after the the translation was approved.

 

[benedictgal]

The ineffables and gibbets would not appear in the Ordinary of the Mass, they’d be in the Propers… and I don’t know what calendar the '65 used. The innefables and gibbets appear during Holy Week, if you’ve got the complete Missal, check the readings leading up to Easter.

At least ineffable (and gibbet, I think) are coming back with the new translation!

 

[WhollyRoamin]

Obscure? Maybe. But I dare say that this is the Mass that the younger half of the baby boomer generation remembers. Mass was commonly said in English when I was a child. Latin tended to be reserved for the Sunday “High Mass”.

On what planet? The '65 was not widely used anyway, then was quickly replaced by the '70 Novus Ordo… which actually started to appear in '69.

 

[WhollyRoamin]

At least ineffable (and gibbet, I think) are coming back with the new translation!

Hold your breath for that one! The Ordinary was approved by the USCCB and ICEL… but the propers haven’t made it out of the bureaucracy yet.

If ineffable appears in my OCB “Today’s Missal” any time soon, I’ll eat my hat. I’d set the over/under for hat eating at Jan 1, 2011.

ICEL, you’re on the clock.

 

[benedictgal]

Hold your breath for that one! The Ordinary was approved by the USCCB and ICEL… but the propers haven’t made it out of the bureaucracy yet.

If ineffable appears in my OCB “Today’s Missal” any time soon, I’ll eat my hat. I’d set the over/under for hat eating at Jan 1, 2011.

ICEL, you’re on the clock.

The propers have been approved. They had a huge debate over the word “ineffable”, but, my new hero, Daniel Cardinal DiNardo urged the Latin-Rite USCCB members to vote for the new translation as is.

 

[drforjc]

It sounds like you’ve got a copy of an obscure Missal known as the '65 Mass. Not to oversimplify things, but it was largely a vernacular version of the TLM. People look back on it as a “transitional missal”, though it wasn’t really conceived as such at the time.

IMHO, it is the actual Mass of Vatican 2, since it carefully adheres to Sacrosanctum Concillium.

The '65 wasn’t widely used and exists basically only as a footnote in Liturgical history.

So some “1965 missals” actually bear 1964 copyrights? I found the same thing tucked away on a shelf in our sacristy. It looks like the 65 missal but is copyrighted 1964.

 

[Frosty]

SMHW Obscure? Maybe. But I dare say that this is the Mass that the younger half of the baby boomer generation remembers. Mass was commonly said in English when I was a child. Latin tended to be reserved for the Sunday “High Mass”.

On what planet? The '65 was not widely used anyway, then was quickly replaced by the '70 Novus Ordo… which actually started to appear in '69.

It was used more extensively than you like to think. It was certainly used in the diocese where I lived at the time. Having said that, I do not have a copy of the 1965 Missal for the sole reason that small pamphlets were handed out to all parishoners with the English translations containing {in black and red ink!] the prayers and responses that the faithful were to say aloud. I just stuck it in my 1962 St. Joseph’s Daily Missal, where it remains to this day. The only translation difference is at the dismissal where instead of : Go, you are dismissed" the words became “Go, the Mass has ended”.

 

[SMHW]

I don’t actually have a 1965 missal. But I still have my 1966 St. Joseph Missal which I used through much of my Catholic schooling until the newer translation came along. I grew up in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. At that time the Los Angeles archbishops were actually more conservative than many of the other American bishops.

The 1966 dismissal was as follows:

Priest: The Lord be with you.
People: And with your spirit.
Deacon (or priest): The Mass is ended. Go in peace.
People: Thanks be to God.

(The Latin translation was included below the English.)

 

[erigby27]

So some “1965 missals” actually bear 1964 copyrights? I found the same thing tucked away on a shelf in our sacristy. It looks like the 65 missal but is copyrighted 1964.

My guess is that, because the Church year starts with Advent, the 1965 missal would have been published in 1964, and therefore bear a 1964 copyright.

SO the Church year 1965 would actually begin with Advent '64. I think.

 

[Ghoti]

I have a 1957 Missal that doesn’t have a lick of Latin. Everything is in English, and has references in it to HH Pius XII.

Was there a “TLM” in them days offered in English?

 

[AJV]

So some “1965 missals” actually bear 1964 copyrights? I found the same thing tucked away on a shelf in our sacristy. It looks like the 65 missal but is copyrighted 1964.

The permission for English in the United States actually came slightly earlier than the 1965 changes.

At a plenary session in April 1964, the bishops of the USA permitted English in

• the readings of the Mass
• the Ordinary in the “parts that pertain to the people” - Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Agnus Dei, Domine non sum dignus and the “bidding prayers” or “prayers of the faithful” (then beginning to be introduced)
• the proper chants of the Mass
• acclamations, salutations and diogues

In May 1964, this was confirmed by a rescript from Rome.

In September 1964, the decree Inter Oecumenci introduced several revisions to the Order of the Mass, among other things that were later incorporated officially into the new “Ordo Missae” and “Ritus Servandus” (January 1965)

 

[AJV]

I have a 1957 Missal that doesn’t have a lick of Latin. Everything is in English, and has references in it to HH Pius XII.

Was there a “TLM” in them days offered in English?

No, but many missals simply didn’t print parts, or all, of the Proper in Latin as a means of saving space. It was more like you would know that the priest was reading the Introit for the day and you would read the same thing in your book, without necessarily following his Latin.

 

[Chatter163]

The changes announced in the spring of 1964 took effect on Advent Sunday, 1964, which was the start of the 1965 liturgical year, hence the term “the 1965 missal.” In fact, it was the Order of Mass itself, and not the missal, that was revised.

Most of the changes announced in Inter Oecumenici in the fall of 1965 took place on the First Sunday of Lent in March, 1965.

 

[Frosty]

This article from Time Magazine in 1964 talks about the changes to take place beginning the first Sunday of Advent, 1964.

time.com/time/printout/0,8816,871416,00.html

 

[Rabbititus]

I have a 1966 St Joseph Continuous “New revised liturgy” (it actually says that on the binding) missal that I bought on Ebay a few years ago. It has the 1965 mass. It is, more or less, just the 1962 missal in English, and it follows the old calendar and reading cycle. In fact, I used it for the first EF I ever attended because I didn’t yet have a 1962 missal.

The downside of using it was that it is in contemporary English while all of the Tridentine masses I’ve attended used the Douay-Rheims for when the scripture is reread in the vernacular. Plus it smells funny.

IMO, it’d be kinda neat if the 1965 mass were allowed as an “option.” It might be a nice stepping stone for people who like traditional liturgy but who find the Latin somewhat intimidating. My understanding is that the canon was still in Latin.

 

[SMHW]

I have a 1966 St Joseph Continuous “New revised liturgy” (it actually says that on the binding) missal that I bought on Ebay a few years ago. It has the 1965 mass. It is, more or less, just the 1962 missal in English, and it follows the old calendar and reading cycle. In fact, I used it for the first EF I ever attended because I didn’t yet have a 1962 missal.

The downside of using it was that it is in contemporary English while all of the Tridentine masses I’ve attended used the Douay-Rheims for when the scripture is reread in the vernacular. Plus it smells funny.

IMO, it’d be kinda neat if the 1965 mass were allowed as an “option.” It might be a nice stepping stone for people who like traditional liturgy but who find the Latin somewhat intimidating. My understanding is that the canon was still in Latin.

Seems like you have the same missal as me. …except that I got mine new…