1963 Letter Suggests Pope Knew of Abuse

[sidbrown]

According to the book: Goodbye good men, there is a lot of immoral activity taking place in Catholic seminaries. I think that the first line of defense would be to clean out the seminaries and throw out these immoral characters. The second line of defense would be to turn over to the police any information concerning the illegal immoral activity of a priest. The third line of defense would be to defrock any bishop who tolerates this type of immoral activity within his diocese.

 

[Neithan]

Are the clergy still investigating themselves on this matter? Or do they now cooperate with civil authorities?

After what has happened - particularly with the widespreed failure of bishops in Ireland - why doesn’t the Vatican make provisions for secular (non-religious) church agencies comprised of laymen (and laywomen) to investigate allegations of abuse by clerics and religious? They should be invested with full authority to enforce canonical penalties, and could be trusted to cooperate with state-run agencies when civil penalties are necessary; there should be one for every bishop’s conference in the world (but directly governed by the Holy See, not the conferences).

True penance requires reform. Clericalism has inflicted grave harm on the Church, and the clergy, who have failed so miserably to protect the laity, should not be left to investigate themselves.

 

[psr13]

Sorry, I went to a public high school. I had 3 different male teachers and coaches that acted VERY inappropriate around girls. Staring, brushing up against bodies, coming by your desk to “help” all while staring down your shirt. Even a gay female gym coach that lingered in the showers and dressing rooms… They were teaching when I entered… They were teaching when I left. EVERYONE KNEW… the only difference… High school aged children tend to be more vocal. In fact, I’ll NEVER forget the time our married high school principal, who was caught with his secretary in the parking lot handed out all the cheerleaders phone numbers to some creep that claimed to be with a presidential campaign.

Watch out for the female coach… 'cause she’s watching you. (no showers)
You freely called the football coach a pig, and dared him to call your parents… etc…

So, I wouldn’t be so quick to assume the secular world has a handle on things… they don’t.

Oh, I should also mention that some of these teachers were known to be having sex with some of their female students FOR YEARS… I just managed to only have to deal with their pig like antics.

Yep. Teacher gets cheerleader pregnant in the '70’s and still teaches at that school in the late '90’s. That would never happen would it? No way.

 

[SunnaB16]

What allegations? I simply pointed out what the Vatican has been saying about Cardinal Ratzinger’s actions, or inaction, as Prefect of the CDF.

i saw your earlier posts, so there`s no point in denying what you said.
At least one thread started by you was deleted: i made a response; and then the thread disappeared.

He saw the Catholic Church for what it was at the time; as much a political institution as a religious one.

You`re right…and then the good emperor tries to set up up the Church to suit himself! Like Henry VIII. He even has his name inserted into catechisms. Modesty!

Pius VI wasn’t exactly a model Pope and Napoleon freed the Jews in Rome from the persecution of Pius VI and his predecessors.

Yeah?
Actually, i was referring to Pius VII.

John Henry Newman wrote an article about the Antichrist, and how he would be preceded by a number of mini-Antichrists, among whom was the Little Corporal.

When excommunicated, he responded: “Does he [the Pope] suppose the arms will fall from the hands of my soldiers?”. Exactly what happened during his retreat from Moscow, a few years later.

 

[Saint_wannabe]

“Cardinal” Law disgusts me. He was behind the cover up of all the scandals and abuses in my diocese. In fact, I remember being a little kid (pre-teen, so between 10-12) when I first heard of the Catholic Church. It was about the sex scandal and Cardinal Law covering it up in the Archdiocese of Boston.

I like what our current Archbishop, Cardinal O’Malley, did. He came in and kicked some…aye-ess-ess and maintains his zero-tolerance policy against abuse.

If I was Bishop of any diocese or Pope, (Bishop of Rome) I’d come in and kick some serious behind with these abuse scandals. They’re disgusting and smear the Name of the Lord, which is something none of us should have tolerance for.

Thank you for posting this. For the past four years or so, while all of these stories have been breaking, Iv’e tried my very best to side with the church at all times. When this last story came out about a month ago, that shows Cardinal Law celebrating special Masses in Rome, it frustrated, angered & sickened me, and I guess I just kind of freaked out over this whole issue. Cardinal Law was a bishop in the U.S. until he was forced to step down over how carelessly he had handled this whole abuse/cover up scandal. This man was responsible for hiding pedophile priests and relocating some, who then went on to be repeat offenders. I now find out that this man was transfered to Rome by Pope John Paul ll and is there celebrating special Masses as a bishop. Many Catholics, as well as rape victim attorneys and victims themselves, have written our current pope and voiced their displeasure over all of this, and none of them ever even received a response.

I know that there are many good priests who live good & holy lives, who didn’t have a damn thing to do with this whatsoever, but are now looked upon by many with hatred & disgust, and that even angers me more. Maybe in some strange way, I’m verbally lashing out about this whole issue on their behalf. I understand that the pope has repeatedly apologized over this and steps are being taken to correct these atrocities, but it also seems that every time he apologizes over this, another story breaks about this scandal, that was again being hidden or ignored.

I’m truly sorry if I offended any of you by posting this, and I wish I could tell you all that I felt a different way over this whole mess, but that would just be a lie.

 

[JackVk]

I know that there are many good priests who live good & holy lives, who didn’t have a damn thing to do with this whatsoever, but are now looked by many with hatred & disgust, and that even angers me more. Maybe in some strange way, I’m verbally lashing out about this whole issue on their behalf. I understand that the pope has repeatedly apologized over this and steps are being taken to correct these atrocities, but it also seems that every time he apologizes over this, another story breaks about this scandal, that was again being hidden or ignored.

YES! I say this all the time, yet nobody listens, even here on CAF . I know three or four priests on a personal level, and they are all GOOD MEN. But it seems in vain; people would rather listen to 5-second propaganda sound bites.

 

[irishpatrick]

Thank you for posting this. For the past four years or so, while all of these stories have been breaking, Iv’e tried my very best to side with the church at all times. When this last story came out about a month ago, that shows Cardinal Law celebrating special Masses in Rome, it frustrated, angered & sickened me, and I guess I just kind of freaked out over this whole issue. Cardinal Law was a bishop in the U.S. until he was forced to step down over how carelessly he had handled this whole abuse/cover up scandal. This man was responsible for hiding pedophile priests and relocating some, who then went on to be repeat offenders. I now find out that this man was transfered to Rome by Pope John Paul ll and is there celebrating special Masses as a bishop. Many Catholics, as well as rape victim attorneys and victims themselves, have written our current pope and voiced their displeasure over all of this, and none of them ever even received a response.

I know that there are many good priests who live good & holy lives, who didn’t have a damn thing to do with this whatsoever, but are now looked upon by many with hatred & disgust, and that even angers me more. Maybe in some strange way, I’m verbally lashing out about this whole issue on their behalf. I understand that the pope has repeatedly apologized over this and steps are being taken to correct these atrocities, but it also seems that every time he apologizes over this, another story breaks about this scandal, that was again being hidden or ignored.

I’m truly sorry if I offended any of you by posting this, and I wish I could tell you all that I felt a different way over this whole mess, but that would just be a lie.

Read Eph 6:12.

No matter how much hand wringing we might do, that passage explains it all. Catholics do not want to accept that, but it is still the truth.

 

[Saint_wannabe]

“Those who commit these types of scandals are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, but I’m here among you to prevent something far worst for you. While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal - who allow scandals to destroy faith - are guilty of spiritual suicide.”

Francis De Sales

angelfire.com/nb/defendthefaith/quotes.html

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Saint Wannabe and other doubting Catholics,

Have faith in your German Shepherd!
He needs your support now more than ever.
That’s part of your role as a Catholic.
God Bless.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

i saw your earlier posts, so there`s no point in denying what you said…

What exactly is it that you think I’m denying?

You`re right…and then the good emperor tries to set up up the Church to suit himself!.

As most of the heads of Europe have always tried to do.

Yeah?
Actually, i was referring to Pius VII.!.

I missed an I. The facts presented still stand.

John Henry Newman wrote an article about the Antichrist, and how he would be preceded by a number of mini-Antichrists, among whom was the Little Corporal.

:yawn:

Exactly what happened during his retreat from Moscow, a few years later.

The arms certainly weren’t falling. The withdraw from Russia, and thats precisely what it was, was in response to an attempted coup in Paris not to anything the Russians did.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Just as an observer, whenever something new breaks about this scandal, it seems to me that responses are one or a combination of five kinds:

1. The report is untrue; it’s all part of a big evil attack on the Catholic Church (essentially, “blame the media”);
2. Priests are good men, or at least no worse than the general populace. (Somehow this is seen as an excuse for the abuser and his enablers?)
3. Everyone else does it (other denominations, public schools, etc.). Even your mother wouldn’t have let you get by with this one…
4. Offer an official apology, but focus only and intently on the priest/offender and the victim(s), never, ever, mention or apologize for those who facilitated the abuse or covered it up.
5. Keep saying that things are all better now–this is all in the past.

For me a credible response to this crisis would be to begin holding some bishops accountable for their actions or lack of action in these matters. This would mean essentially “firing” the offending bishop from his duties in the church (defrocking, no-longer-on-the-payroll, no housing, no car allowance, not at a retreat house doing “prayer and penance” etc.). Until something like this happens, I don’t think the Catholic Church will be viewed as having seriously addressed this issue and truly standing on the side of those victimized rather than the enablers. It’s pretty shocking to me that even the offending priests are sometimes not even defrocked and continue to be supported by the church.

Beyond that, $2.7 billion has been spent on this crisis. I don’t understand why Catholics aren’t more up in arms about this!

 

[sidbrown]

Just as an observer, whenever something new breaks about this scandal, it seems to me that responses are one or a combination of five kinds:

1. The report is untrue; it’s all part of a big evil attack on the Catholic Church (essentially, “blame the media”);
2. Priests are good men, or at least no worse than the general populace. (Somehow this is seen as an excuse for the abuser and his enablers?)
3. Everyone else does it (other denominations, public schools, etc.). Even your mother wouldn’t have let you get by with this one…
4. Offer an official apology, but focus only and intently on the priest/offender and the victim(s), never, ever, mention or apologize for those who facilitated the abuse or covered it up.
5. Keep saying that things are all better now–this is all in the past.

These are the answers that I have seen also.

 

[Adeodatus]

For me a credible response to this crisis would be to begin holding some bishops accountable for their actions or lack of action in these matters. This would mean essentially “firing” the offending bishop from his duties in the church (defrocking, no-longer-on-the-payroll, no housing, no car allowance, not at a retreat house doing “prayer and penance” etc.). Until something like this happens, I don’t think the Catholic Church will be viewed as having seriously addressed this issue and truly standing on the side of those victimized rather than the enablers. It’s pretty shocking to me that even the offending priests are sometimes not even defrocked and continue to be supported by the church.

Beyond that, $2.7 billion has been spent on this crisis. I don’t understand why Catholics aren’t more up in arms about this!

Well, my friend, if I were allowed to fire bishops I promise you that decisive action would indeed be taken! If I could hire them as well… you’d see a Church that looked like we used to look in the old days. Back when even people who disagreed with us respected us. Basically they’d all be from the FSSP, SSPX and Opus Dei.

I really think that Pope Benedict XVI is doing a good job, but he’s not fast or tough enough for me. Dissidents used to call him things like “Panzer Pope” and so on… what a joke. He’s way nicer than I’d be. My Popemobile would be an M1A2 Abrams. It would be like “Your Holiness, liturgical dancers making a mockery of our faith at 1 o’clock” and then “My son, load HE and engage” and then “HE loaded and… on… the… way! your Holiness”.

Seriously, I agree that the hierarchy (I’m not talking about clergy here, but just people in positions of power whoever they may be) needs to be gutted and rebuilt. I would try to do the whole thing in a month and probably fail. Pope Benedict XVI, who is a very holy man and also a genius, is taking a more measured, infuriatingly prudent approach.

I think in 50 years or so the whole thing of rampant Liberalism, homosexualism, betrayal of vows, etc. will be a thing of the past. I’ll be on my deathbed at the time (if I’m even still alive), but eventually the Catholic Church will be back to looking like the Catholic Church. However sorry you may be that it doesn’t look like that now, I may be even sorrier than you about that. As a convert, I can only sit and wistfully imagine the Church I could have converted to, if it hadn’t been nearly destroyed by revolutionaries.

 

[Fatima_Vision]

Just as an observer, whenever something new breaks about this scandal, it seems to me that responses are one or a combination of five kinds:

1. The report is untrue; it’s all part of a big evil attack on the Catholic Church (essentially, “blame the media”);
2. Priests are good men, or at least no worse than the general populace. (Somehow this is seen as an excuse for the abuser and his enablers?)
3. Everyone else does it (other denominations, public schools, etc.). Even your mother wouldn’t have let you get by with this one…
4. Offer an official apology, but focus only and intently on the priest/offender and the victim(s), never, ever, mention or apologize for those who facilitated the abuse or covered it up.
5. Keep saying that things are all better now–this is all in the past.

For me a credible response to this crisis would be to begin holding some bishops accountable for their actions or lack of action in these matters. This would mean essentially “firing” the offending bishop from his duties in the church (defrocking, no-longer-on-the-payroll, no housing, no car allowance, not at a retreat house doing “prayer and penance” etc.). Until something like this happens, I don’t think the Catholic Church will be viewed as having seriously addressed this issue and truly standing on the side of those victimized rather than the enablers. It’s pretty shocking to me that even the offending priests are sometimes not even defrocked and continue to be supported by the church.

Beyond that, $2.7 billion has been spent on this crisis. I don’t understand why Catholics aren’t more up in arms about this!

Iv’e noticed much of the same rhetoric. It hurts me to say that but its true. With that being said though, I want to be part of the solution & not the problem. I’m mad as hell over how some of this has been handled, and how many (not all) Catholics use every excuse in the book to try and justify this kind of behavior, by both the bad apples who committed these atrocities, and by higher ups in the church who attempted to cover much, if not all of this up.

 

[Fatima_Vision]

Saint Wannabe and other doubting Catholics,

I don’t think just because some people are angry about this, and see the problems, abuses and cover ups, and then state their anger & frustration over this whole mess, automatically makes them a doubting Catholic. I think your painting with very broad strokes.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I don’t think just because some people are angry about this, and see the problems, abuses and cover ups, and then state their anger & frustration over this whole mess, automatically makes them a doubting Catholic. I think your painting with very broad strokes.

Thank you, Fatima Vision. I should not have used those words. I allowed my anger and frustration (over their anger and frustration) to get the best of me, and I apologize.

 

[Hiskid1973]

For me a credible response to this crisis would be to begin holding some bishops accountable for their actions or lack of action in these matters. This would mean essentially “firing” the offending bishop from his duties in the church (defrocking, no-longer-on-the-payroll, no housing, no car allowance, not at a retreat house doing “prayer and penance” etc.). Until something like this happens, I don’t think the Catholic Church will be viewed as having seriously addressed this issue and truly standing on the side of those victimized rather than the enablers. It’s pretty shocking to me that even the offending priests are sometimes not even defrocked and continue to be supported by the church.

Beyond that, $2.7 billion has been spent on this crisis. I don’t understand why Catholics aren’t more up in arms about this!

That was an excellent post Dave that hit the nail on the head…I think this is a good discussion with our Catholic brethren…Not to sound trite but this whole debacle reminds me of the “wack a mole” game…Take care of one area and another pops right up…It’s like once it got exposed it freed others to come fwd…I don’t think it will be over any time soon…All our church’s need a good Corinth style housecleaning
laity and leadership alike…It shows how important it is for all of us to walk in the spirit, understand/wear the armor of God and always keep our leadership and brothers and sister in Christ in our daily prayers…The enemy of our souls will try
anything to destroy our faith walk and will always try to distract us from walking close to the Lord. He also does his best to bring down those in leadership and teach…About two years ago we had a wonderful assistant pastor…He was in also in charge of our daycare…One of the teachers they hired started going through a divorce and would ask his advice at work…We have a policy at church where they never council alone with the opposite sex…We’ll you can figure out what happened next…Finally he was spotted alone with the woman in another town by a church member who called the pastor…A couple days later he was called to a meeting with the pastor and the bishop over our area…He was removed from his position and his wife and him called into council…He chose to leave his wife and run off with the woman…This all transpired over over 6 months and destroyed the mans ministry and testimony…It was so concealed that no one knew and really shook up the church…All you can do is pray and hope they repent…It can happen to any of us.Always stay on guard and stay close to the Lord…

 

[faithfully]

I’m going to respond within (someone is welcome to PM me instruction on breaking up a quote. Thanks!)

Just as an observer, whenever something new breaks about this scandal, it seems to me that responses are one or a combination of five kinds:

1. The report is untrue; it’s all part of a big evil attack on the Catholic Church (essentially, “blame the media”);My diocese is going through this AGAIN! 4 boys, my elementary school, they would be in their mid 30’s. I have NO DOUBT they are telling the truth. I vaugly remember this priest (now 72ish), HUGE RED FLAGS that we would all recognize today, because TODAY we are more educated about this. TODAY, I can say, OMG! It was so obvious. Back then… not so much.
2. Priests are good men, or at least no worse than the general populace. (Somehow this is seen as an excuse for the abuser and his enablers?)TRUE priests are good men. Evil is Evil. It lurks EVERYWHERE. I SUSPECT when people say this, they mean, it’s NOT scritctly a Catholic problem. Meaning If Catholic, then molester. As we know, molesters come in all flavors.
3. Everyone else does it (other denominations, public schools, etc.). Even your mother wouldn’t have let you get by with this one… No, it’s NEVER ok. No matter where you are in the world, abusing a child is a horror story. Most abuse happens by those the victim knows. A child trusts an adult, The adult takes advantage. It’s not excuseable ANYWHERE! Again, I think this sort of talk has more to do with… Quit saying it’s a Catholic issue… It’s a GLOBAL, MAN KIND issue.
4. Offer an official apology, but focus only and intently on the priest/offender and the victim(s), never, ever, mention or apologize for those who facilitated the abuse or covered it up.
   If you read, the apologetics for example. This is addressed. How things are SUPPOSED to work out. How nothing of this nature should be tolerated. However, I do think the Church has handled this as wrong as the rest of the world. But the church gets publicity over and over again. In the way, that AMERICA as a country, or gov’t does not get bashed every time one of its citizens does the same exact thing. You don’t see the President of the time, on TV apologizing EVERYDAY for the days’ horrors.
5. Keep saying that things are all better now–this is all in the past.I think THINK this is the hope. That the current YOUNGER priests are safe??? But more than anything that we are educating the people of the church, the parents and the children to recognize this immediately, and dealing with it immediately. Not waiting 30 years because it’s barely understood as a true crime.

Again, WE are going through this again. Again, meaning that some men FINALLY came out with their horror of 30 years ago. It does appear that the dead bishop might have purged his files… THAT IS SO WRONG… How to hold him accountable. I’m disgusted to learn that our GOV’T won’t allow prosocution of this evil man. As the statue of limitations has expired. Quite frankly, if that man is still breathing, in my mind is has NOT expired.

And so NOW the lawyers, are trying to figure out with some sort of certainty…MY GOSH WHO IS STILL ALIVE??? that everyone KNEW what this man was when he was hired into our diosese. The goal for the lawyer being that the Church and it’s people pay big bucks. And I suspect that NO Individual involved in this crime will be punished. NOT EVEN THE ABUSER! THAT IS SOOOOOOO WRONG!

When will we make abusers PAY for what they did? Why do our CIVIL laws protect them so?

Yes, the Church MUST opperate in todays world. They need to get their practicing policies up to speed. Clean house of ANYONE they KNOW is abusing. Allow the law to handle them. They aren’t REAL priests anyway…

I’m disgusted all right… but not JUST at the Church. I’m disgusted that even our LAWS don’t protect us yet from this kind of abuse.

Everytime we let a rapist, or child molester back into society we put lives at risk… knowingly… Just ask Poly Klass… Oh wait, we can’t!

 

[Brodt]

I think this article by Sean Murphy might be useful.
catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0329.htm

 

[sidbrown]

Everytime we let a rapist, or child molester back into society we put lives at risk…

This is a good point.