1965 missal: how good was it--how bad was it?

[Jerry-Jet]

I was interested in getting some traditionalists here to comment on the 1965 missal.

Is it much superior to the current Novus Ordo?

What’s good about it?

What’s bad about it?

Was it it an organic development of the 1962 missal?

What organic developments of the 1962 nmissal would have happened and what orgainc developments of the 1962 missal would most traditionalists think to be good things if Vatican II had never happened?

 

[brotherhrolf]

The blunt, very blunt, reality is that we never used the 65 Missal. When we began the transition to the NO, it was, OK parish, in two weeks we will no longer say the Gloria in Latin. In two weeks we will not longer say the Kyrie in Latin. and so on and so forth.

And it’s 1966 BTW. I’ve got a pristine copy of my Missal (which was never used) within arms reach on my bookshelf. All of us abandoned the Missal because the missalettes were more up-to-date and the fury of change (yes, I mean that literally) was such that we never knew from one week to the next what change would come. As I have remarked on other threads, by September of 1968, maybe not in my parish, but certainly at my Catholic boys high school, we had what can only be described as the NO.

 

[reginacaeli]

I was born in 1966, so my memory is very limited.

But at my parish, I remember singing the Kyrie in Greek. We switched shortly after, but we did.

OT, but I also distinctly remember at age 5 watching the communicants receiving at the Communion rail and thinking that was cool. When I received my First Communion two years later, the Communion rail was still there, but we were told to stand in front of it. By then the rail wasn’t used. I remember thinking this was stupid, why couldn’t we kneel instead?

My mother converted to Catholicism and married my Dad in 1965. She had a 1963 missal. No 1965 missal.

 

[stmaria]

Here is the 1965 missal. I was 15 at the time and I don’t recall every using it. It was translated into more than 200 vernacular languages so its use must have been widespread. I know it was used on the east coast but not where I was living.
I think it is a wonderful mass. Hopefully the prayers at the foot of the altar would have been used. This was the Mass of the Constitution voted on by the Vatican II council. There was no need for more reform.
coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

 

[puzzleannie]

The blunt, very blunt, reality is that we never used the 65 Missal. When we began the transition to the NO, it was, OK parish, in two weeks we will no longer say the Gloria in Latin. In two weeks we will not longer say the Kyrie in Latin. and so on and so forth.

And it’s 1966 BTW. I’ve got a pristine copy of my Missal (which was never used) within arms reach on my bookshelf. All of us abandoned the Missal because the missalettes were more up-to-date and the fury of change (yes, I mean that literally) was such that we never knew from one week to the next what change would come. As I have remarked on other threads, by September of 1968, maybe not in my parish, but certainly at my Catholic boys high school, we had what can only be described as the NO.

eggzackly
and that is precisely why “missalettes” were invented, because changes happened so rapidly hard cover missals were outdate even before they were sold. I remember vividly how my dad railed against missalettes. At times, becaues parishes got tired of buying new altar missals, sacramentaries, and lectionaries each year, the readings were even done from the “paperbacks”.

there was not just intro of the NO on a certain date, it was an ongoing process with changes, almost weekly it seemed at times. The rapidity of the changes, the contradictions in worship resources out there–and many Catholic publishers went out of business trying to keep up with the changes–and above all, the failure to catechize on what was going on, had more to do IMO with people leaving the church and losing respect for the integrity of the Mass, than the NO itself.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

What are the traditionalist objections to the 1965 missal? If it had never changed would more people that are now traditionalists had grown to accept it?

 

[AJV]

And it’s 1966 BTW. I’ve got a pristine copy of my Missal (which was never used) within arms reach on my bookshelf.

The OP is right, brotherhrolf. The English translation may have appeared slightly later, and the changes would have taken more time to filter down to the parishes (depending on each diocese with questions like the extent of the vernacular) but the Ordo Missae, etc. was promulgated January 1965.

 

[brotherhrolf]

The OP is right, brotherhrolf. The English translation may have appeared slightly later, and the changes would have taken more time to filter down to the parishes (depending on each diocese with questions like the extent of the vernacular) but the Ordo Missae, etc. was promulgated January 1965.

Didn’t think about that. I was only going by my New St. Joseph’s
which has a copyright date of 1966. At any rate I never used it and here we are 40 years later and I use the misallette in the pews. My 1962 Missal which I got in March of 1963 when I made my Confirmation is “worn-in”.

I don’t have any objections to the 1965 Missal. Like Annie says we didn’t get a chance to use it. It was as we have described it - rapid change, every few weeks or so. It was not a structured or planned change to transition to the NO, it was whatever your parish was doing in the greater scheme of things.

The proto-form of the NO was implemented in my high school in September of 1968. My home parish lagged about six months behind. No matter what, the NO was implemented before its official implementation date of the First Sunday of Advent 1969. And even the NO wasn’t set in stone.

I understand that it was different in Europe. That there was not such a rush towards change as here in the US… The Masses I attended in Spain n the fall of 1971 were recognizable to me as Latin Masses (they may have very well used the 1965 Missal) All I know is that I could participate in the Mass in Latin. I could not if they had been in Spanish.

 

[drforjc]

What are the traditionalist objections to the 1965 missal? If it had never changed would more people that are now traditionalists had grown to accept it?

That it eliminated the prayers at the foot of the altar, allowed vernacular, etc.
I’ve been hit from both sides when I’ve suggested that the '65 Ordo Missae is at least close to what S.C. called for (maybe with the one exception that it did not add more scripture readings per S.C.)
On the one hand, “we can’t turn back the clock,” and on the other, “it’s already sliding down the slippery slope toward the novus ordo.”

I do have a hand missal from the '65 and I really do like it overall.

 

[AJV]

That it eliminated the prayers at the foot of the altar, allowed vernacular, etc.
I’ve been hit from both sides when I’ve suggested that the '65 Ordo Missae is at least close to what S.C. called for (maybe with the one exception that it did not add more scripture readings per S.C.)
On the one hand, “we can’t turn back the clock,” and on the other, “it’s already sliding down the slippery slope toward the novus ordo.”

I do have a hand missal from the '65 and I really do like it overall.

Although the 1965 Order did not add weekday readings, weekday cycles made their appearance as early as 1966. When I went on vacation to India last year, I saw a copy, printed in Britain by Chapman, in the collection of a recently deceased priest . Drat that I didn’t recognize it for what it was and thougt it was NO - I could have got it free. I did get an interesting alternative translation missal though, for the NO - made me wonder how priests could replace that with the '75 ICEL.

 

[ethelzguy]

The proto-form of the NO was implemented in my high school in September of 1968. My home parish lagged about six months behind. No matter what, the NO was implemented before its official implementation date of the First Sunday of Advent 1969.

This is the first time I’ve ever heard of it being used prior to the First Sunday of Advent, 1969.

 

[Cobbfmly]

I was born in 1966, so my memory is very limited.

But at my parish, I remember singing the Kyrie in Greek. We switched shortly after, but we did.

OT, but I also distinctly remember at age 5 watching the communicants receiving at the Communion rail and thinking that was cool. When I received my First Communion two years later, the Communion rail was still there, but we were told to stand in front of it. By then the rail wasn’t used. I remember thinking this was stupid, why couldn’t we kneel instead?

My mother converted to Catholicism and married my Dad in 1965. She had a 1963 missal. No 1965 missal.

I was born in 1967. I received my First Communion (1974) kneeling at the communion rail. We were receiving in the hand standing up in line by 1980. The communion rails at the parish I was raised in were not removed until about 2005. They also did not start using altar girls until JPII allowed them.

 

[Pious_Mat]

Although I don’t think the '65 missal is an ideal Mass, especially when compared to the '62 missal, but I think it is a far more organic, “catholic” Mass than the Novus Ordo Missae. The canon is virtually the same as the traditional canon (which virtually did not change from the time of Gregory the Great to 1962, by the way), which is definitely a good thing. It is also good to remember the following about this missal:

-The canon still was required to be said in Latin until 1967
-The cope was still widespread until it surpressed for the Asperges in 1967
-Kneeling and standing as per tradition
-The translation into English is superb.

I really like this missal, and if, by some miracle, this missal replaced the NO, I would be very happy. I do have a few objections though:

-The maniple and prayers at the foot of the altar are made optional. In today’s Church, a tradition made optional is tradition discarded.
-No Silent Canon. A silent canon has been a constant feature of the Mass since the time of the Church fathers, even before Gregory the Great. An audible canon removes some precious silence from the Mass, contributing to an atmosphere more conducive to gossip than prayer.
-People Not Blessed with the Host before recieving it. This is a very powerful blessing, and well worth the time.
-No Last Gospel. Making the last Gospel mandatory is one the great innovations of the Council of Trent. Getting rid of it is not moving forward, but backward, into the middle ages.

This is a great Mass, but it must be said that making optional what Trent made mandatory and used to be optional as part of Vatican II “reform” is not reform at all.

 

[brotherhrolf]

This is the first time I’ve ever heard of it being used prior to the First Sunday of Advent, 1969.

Ethelzguy, you are older than me. You mean to tell me that the NO did not appear in your parish until the First Sunday of Advent, 1969? That there was no transistion? That your parish used the 1965/6 Missal and Mass was said in Latin up until that date? How blessed you were. My experience was anything but. On the First Sunday of Advent 1969 they announced that the transition to the NO was complete and my parish gave a collective “SO?” It had been complete for a year before.

 

[ethelzguy]

Ethelzguy, you are older than me. You mean to tell me that the NO did not appear in your parish until the First Sunday of Advent, 1969? That there was no transistion? That your parish used the 1965/6 Missal and Mass was said in Latin up until that date? How blessed you were. My experience was anything but. On the First Sunday of Advent 1969 they announced that the transition to the NO was complete and my parish gave a collective “SO?” It had been complete for a year before.

Sorry if my post was confusing. As I recollect…in 65 we went to what I would call “the old Latin Mass, in English” Triple rep prayers (through my fault, through my fault, through my most grieveous fault…) "Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof…(thrice), 9 lines of Kyrie, one Epistle before the Gospel, etc., but it was in English.

In 69, we got the “New Mass”, or what I call “Mass, uncluttered”.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Sorry if my post was confusing. As I recollect…in 65 we went to what I would call “the old Latin Mass, in English” Triple rep prayers (through my fault, through my fault, through my most grieveous fault…) "Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof…(thrice), 9 lines of Kyrie, one Epistle before the Gospel, etc., but it was in English.

In 69, we got the “New Mass”, or what I call “Mass, uncluttered”.

Ahhh, OK, that makes better sense. My archdiocese did not use that approach although I can recall the triple rep prayers in English - a least in my parish. At school, no. Once the brothers abandoned their cassocks at the end of the school year in May, 1967, it was full speed ahead and a lot of it was to our advantage - e.g. mine was the first class to spend the entire school year going through the Bible for Religion class as Juniors. That was unheard of back then and greatly benefited me.

But at home in the parish (and, yes, I was an altar boy) it was OK follow your missalettes…effective two Sundays from now we will no longer sing the Sanctus. We will recite it in English. This was not driven by the parish but by the archdiocese.

At any rate, I was senior altar boy for my parish when Abp. dedicated our new church in late 67. I knelt and kissed his ring. I wonder how many kids today would even know about that old tradition?

 

[ethelzguy]

At any rate, I was senior altar boy for my parish when Abp. dedicated our new church in late 67. I knelt and kissed his ring. I wonder how many kids today would even know about that old tradition?

Now you’re talkin’!

That’s what I’m trying to get at on other threads. There is waaaaay more to our Catholic tradition than the endless beatings over language, communion, and music.

Some of these threads remind me of the Middle East or Ireland.

 

[kim3260]

All I remember about the 1965 Missal is that during 1967-1968 I was learning the “New” Mass before my First Commuion and then all of a sudden they changed it again.
I wish I still had my little white First Commuion Missal.

 

[ethelzguy]

All I remember about the 1965 Missal is that during 1967-1968 I was learning the “New” Mass before my First Commuion and then all of a sudden they changed it again.
I wish I still had my little white First Commuion Missal.

I honestly don’t remember much dissent or complaint during either change. But from what I read here, I shudder to think what it would have happened if we jumped straight from the Old Latin Mass to the Advent 69 Mass.

 

[kim3260]

I honestly don’t remember much dissent or complaint during either change. But from what I read here, I shudder to think what it would have happened if we jumped straight from the Old Latin Mass to the Advent 69 Mass.

I don’t remember any real complaining or whining, except my own as a rotten little kid who was mad because “I learned it real good and now they changed it”