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chero23
Guest
When Saul goes to the medium to speak to samuel whose dead. What is the meaning. Is it really samuel? Is it the devil? What is the church’s teaching on this? Thanks in advance
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Ruthie_again
Guest
The Catechism:
Hope this helps,
po18guy
Well-known member
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chero23
Guest
I looked on scripture catholic, that in wisdom I believe it is, it talks about samuel appearing to Saul.
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COPLAND_3
Guest
Here is what the Douay-Rheims Study Bible has in the footnotes…
14. Understood that it was Samuel. It is the more common opinion of the holy fathers and interpreters, that the soul of Samuel appeared indeed, and not as some have imagined, an evil spirit in his shape; not that the power of her magic could bring him there, but that God was pleased, for the punishment of Saul, that Samuel himself should denounce unto him the evils that were falling upon him. See Eccles. 46:23.
19. With me. That is in the state of the dead, and in another world, though not in the same place.
14. Understood that it was Samuel. It is the more common opinion of the holy fathers and interpreters, that the soul of Samuel appeared indeed, and not as some have imagined, an evil spirit in his shape; not that the power of her magic could bring him there, but that God was pleased, for the punishment of Saul, that Samuel himself should denounce unto him the evils that were falling upon him. See Eccles. 46:23.
19. With me. That is in the state of the dead, and in another world, though not in the same place.
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COPLAND_3
Guest
SOrry about above post, here is the DR Study Bible, the one above is CHalloner’s
14. Understood that it was Samuel. It is not defined nor certain, whether the soul of Samuel appeared, or an evil spirit took his shape, and spoke to Saul. St. Augustine (lib. 2. Q. ad simplician) proposes both the opinions as probable. Where first he shows, that Samuel’s soul might appear, either brought there by the evil spirit, which is not so much to be marveled at, as that our Lord and Savior suffered himself to beset upon the pinnacle of the temple, and to be carried into a high mountain by the Devil; yea to be taken prisoner, bound, whipped, and crucified, by the devil’s ministers; or else that the spirit of the holy prophet, was not raised by force of the enchantment, or any power of the Devil, but by God’s secret ordinance, unknown to the pythonical woman and to Saul, and so appeared in the author’s preference, and struck him with divine sentence. Again he answered, that there may be a more easy and ready sense of this place, to wit, that Samuels spirit (or soul) was not indeed raised, but an imaginary illusion made by the Devil’s enchantment, which seemed to be Samuel, and which the Scripture calls by the name Samuel, as pictures or images are commonly called those persons or things, which they represent. So when we behold pictures on a table, or on a wall, we say, this is Cicero, more at large in the place before cited. But in another work written after (de cura pro mort. ger., c. 15) teaching that souls of the dead appear sometimes to the living, he says expressing, Samuel the prophet being dead, foretold future things to king Saul yet living. Though some be of opinion that Samuel himself appeared not, but some evil spirit took his similitude.
And this last judgment of St. Augustine is much confirmed; first, by the words of this text, literally and plainly affirming that Samuel appeared, and spoke to Saul, and Saul to him, and that Saul understood (or knew, not only thought, imagined, or supposed) that it was Samuel. Secondly, this apparition came sooner, preventing the enchantment, and in better order, then the pithonical woman expected, as appears by her answer, saying she saw God (or an excellent person) ascending in comely manner and attire: whereas evil spirits used to appear (as the Rabbins testify) in ugly bodies, with the heels into the air, and head downward. Thirdly, the Author of Ecclesiasticus (chap. 46) amongst praises of Samuel the prophet, says, He slept (or died) and certified the king, and showed to him the end of his life. Where it seems clear, that the same person that died, denounced God’s will and sentence to Saul. Moreover if it had been an illusion of an evil spirit, it would hardly seem any praise at all. Fourthly, the devil should be slain the next day, and David reign after him, neither is it probable that God revealed such secrets to evil spirits, whereby men might take more occasion to follow necromancy. Fifthly, most Fathers and Doctors are of the same judgment (St. Justin Martyr, Dia. Cum Triph. St. Basil, Ep. 80. Ad Eus. St. Ambrose, li. 1.in Lk a. St. Jerome in sai. 7. Josephus li. 6. C. 15. Anti.) and many other old and late writers. The best argument of the other opinion is the authority of Tertullian (li de an), Procopius, and Eucherius upon this place, and uncertain authors. As for Protestants denying, that souls once parted from their bodies, can appear to any alive, St. Augustine confutes them, both by example of Samuel, supposing the book of Ecclesiasticus to be Canonical Scripture, and of Moses being dead, and Elijah yet living (whom they hold also to be dead) both appearing with Christ in his transfiguration (Mt. 17).
14. Understood that it was Samuel. It is not defined nor certain, whether the soul of Samuel appeared, or an evil spirit took his shape, and spoke to Saul. St. Augustine (lib. 2. Q. ad simplician) proposes both the opinions as probable. Where first he shows, that Samuel’s soul might appear, either brought there by the evil spirit, which is not so much to be marveled at, as that our Lord and Savior suffered himself to beset upon the pinnacle of the temple, and to be carried into a high mountain by the Devil; yea to be taken prisoner, bound, whipped, and crucified, by the devil’s ministers; or else that the spirit of the holy prophet, was not raised by force of the enchantment, or any power of the Devil, but by God’s secret ordinance, unknown to the pythonical woman and to Saul, and so appeared in the author’s preference, and struck him with divine sentence. Again he answered, that there may be a more easy and ready sense of this place, to wit, that Samuels spirit (or soul) was not indeed raised, but an imaginary illusion made by the Devil’s enchantment, which seemed to be Samuel, and which the Scripture calls by the name Samuel, as pictures or images are commonly called those persons or things, which they represent. So when we behold pictures on a table, or on a wall, we say, this is Cicero, more at large in the place before cited. But in another work written after (de cura pro mort. ger., c. 15) teaching that souls of the dead appear sometimes to the living, he says expressing, Samuel the prophet being dead, foretold future things to king Saul yet living. Though some be of opinion that Samuel himself appeared not, but some evil spirit took his similitude.
And this last judgment of St. Augustine is much confirmed; first, by the words of this text, literally and plainly affirming that Samuel appeared, and spoke to Saul, and Saul to him, and that Saul understood (or knew, not only thought, imagined, or supposed) that it was Samuel. Secondly, this apparition came sooner, preventing the enchantment, and in better order, then the pithonical woman expected, as appears by her answer, saying she saw God (or an excellent person) ascending in comely manner and attire: whereas evil spirits used to appear (as the Rabbins testify) in ugly bodies, with the heels into the air, and head downward. Thirdly, the Author of Ecclesiasticus (chap. 46) amongst praises of Samuel the prophet, says, He slept (or died) and certified the king, and showed to him the end of his life. Where it seems clear, that the same person that died, denounced God’s will and sentence to Saul. Moreover if it had been an illusion of an evil spirit, it would hardly seem any praise at all. Fourthly, the devil should be slain the next day, and David reign after him, neither is it probable that God revealed such secrets to evil spirits, whereby men might take more occasion to follow necromancy. Fifthly, most Fathers and Doctors are of the same judgment (St. Justin Martyr, Dia. Cum Triph. St. Basil, Ep. 80. Ad Eus. St. Ambrose, li. 1.in Lk a. St. Jerome in sai. 7. Josephus li. 6. C. 15. Anti.) and many other old and late writers. The best argument of the other opinion is the authority of Tertullian (li de an), Procopius, and Eucherius upon this place, and uncertain authors. As for Protestants denying, that souls once parted from their bodies, can appear to any alive, St. Augustine confutes them, both by example of Samuel, supposing the book of Ecclesiasticus to be Canonical Scripture, and of Moses being dead, and Elijah yet living (whom they hold also to be dead) both appearing with Christ in his transfiguration (Mt. 17).
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chero23
Guest
Copeland3, this message is to you I tried sending you a private message, but I could not find Eccles. 46:23.
What is ironic about that passage, is that the spirit of Samuel tells Saul that Saul and hus sins will be with him soon. My gf said that in her church they believe thats the devil who actually appeared. We both agreed and I guarantee anybody who reads this that Samuel was truly a holy man and is with God. Saul, ahh he had his issues. What really boogled me was that near the end of 1 Samuel, Saul and Hus 3 sons including Jonathan were killed. I know im not God and he does not ask me who goes to heaven, but jinathan in my opinion was a really good man, a faithful and loyal man to David. That’s were it throws me off. If who really appears was the Devil, then why is Jonathan going to hell? What did he do wrong?
What is ironic about that passage, is that the spirit of Samuel tells Saul that Saul and hus sins will be with him soon. My gf said that in her church they believe thats the devil who actually appeared. We both agreed and I guarantee anybody who reads this that Samuel was truly a holy man and is with God. Saul, ahh he had his issues. What really boogled me was that near the end of 1 Samuel, Saul and Hus 3 sons including Jonathan were killed. I know im not God and he does not ask me who goes to heaven, but jinathan in my opinion was a really good man, a faithful and loyal man to David. That’s were it throws me off. If who really appears was the Devil, then why is Jonathan going to hell? What did he do wrong?
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bsroufek
Guest
- Other scripture talks about Samuel being so great a prophet that he prophesied from the grave: i.e. it was indeed Samuel who appeared and prophesied and it came true, didn’t it?
- Jonathan has a convenant with David “forever” between them and their descendants, and from other passages of God helping Jonathan, I believe Jonathan is in Heaven rather than Hell. It’s just that Jonathan “joined” Saul and his brothers (and Samuel who was not in Hell) in Death.
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chero23
Guest
Do you mind telling me were those verses are?
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chero23
Guest
Ok found something, In sirach 46:13-20, it talks about how God let Samuel talk to Saul about how he would die.
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Fidelis
Guest
It is clear that the apparition was really that of Samuel (sent by God) because he was able to accurately able to foretell the future. Demons can’t do that. The good Angels can’t do that either, but they can deliver a message about the future that God sends them to deliver.
I think that even might be the case here with the spirit of Samuel. The impression I get is that the so-called “witch of Endor” was a fraud, because she was as surprised and terrified as anyone else when Samuel appeared. It wasn’t her power than conjured him up; it was rather God who allowed Samuel to appear in order to show Saul his sin and deliver God’s message.
I think that even might be the case here with the spirit of Samuel. The impression I get is that the so-called “witch of Endor” was a fraud, because she was as surprised and terrified as anyone else when Samuel appeared. It wasn’t her power than conjured him up; it was rather God who allowed Samuel to appear in order to show Saul his sin and deliver God’s message.
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chero23
Guest
I told my gf, the devil cannot know when we die only god knows. She’s seventh day Adventist, so I told her, look you know that god is the only person who knows when your time is up, she said the devil does too.
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Fidelis
Guest
It sounds to me like that would give the Devil a capability that only God has. Angels and demons are spirits, but they still can only know information that their intellect, great as it is, can figure out. The only other way they would know is if God tells them, and I can’t see God sharing info like this with demons. Otherwise, they would try to use it to their advantage against us.
I’d be interested in hearing her scriptural support or even her logic for holding this belief.
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