>2/3 Mormons & <1/2 Catholics Republican?

[JohnnyReb]

Mormons are anti-abortion. Republicans are anti-abortion. Simple.

No need for calculus…

Do you think they are one issue voters?

 

[JohnnyReb]

Thanks, Johnny. That means a lot, mate. I appreciate it. I am more accustomed to getting blasted for not jumping on one bandwagon or another . Apparently you and I feel similarly about these things. It’s sad to think that we handed Obama the reigns of power and he has thrown us into massive, unthinkable debt, has supported a mosque by the Trade Center, wanted to try 911 terrorists in NY in public court trials, has had the government expand Medicaid to sickening levels, cap and trade, and now he’s going to let the Bush tax cuts expire.

So for me he’s a real failure.

You’re welcome. I’m not a fan of Obama, he has not done a good job IMO…and he handled that oil spill so well too.

Then the GOP is poised to take things back. I plan on voting for several of them (pinching my nose mind you because I hate the GOP almost as much as the Dems) because Reid and Pelosi really need to GO and we need to stop the bleeding with the debt. But at a gubernatorial level Meg Whitman here in California has made it loud and clear that she hates our pensions (I happen to pay into one! CALSTRS), doesn’t trust us teachers (loves to blame us if it’s raining), doesn’t like unions, and has a real attitude problem, and is all for illegal immigrants. Yippee!

Wouldn’t it be nice if we could line item veto the actual candidates? Where are all the pro-life, low taxes, pro-pension, anti-gay marriage, anti-illegal immigration, pro environment, anti nation building, pro business, pro teacher, mix and match candidates when ya need 'em?

Sadly they do not exist.

When Obama lets the Bush tax cuts expire, my wife and I will lose our $1,000 per child tax deduction. My wife is in the nursing RN program. She won’t be working for a couple of years. I’m the breadwinner and Bush’s tax cuts have truly been what saved our skins. I actually voted twice for Bush.

When I saw Sarah Palin on the ticket, I couldn’t vote for McCain. I voted Obama. And my God I have felt the fool and guilty and lousy about that vote! Won’t make the same mistake again. But I am a moderate and more independent than most, especially in here! I’m not a one-issue voter or a drone for either camp. I’m me.

I appreciate your kind words, friend.

It was the lesser of two evils for me, and I voted for McCain, but that makes difference now. I too consider myself an independent. The Dems have not done a good job, and they spurred the will of the people more than once recently. They need to be taught a lesson about that.

 

[Todd520]

Some good stats here on political leanings from Gallup. I just pulled some highlights from the Gallup survey :

% Conservative
46% Protestant
39% Catholic
59% LDS
20% Jewish
23% Muslim

 

[lax16]

Much of what you say here is dead-on. But I think it’s even more complicated. And I think many in here draw a direct correlation between REPUBLICAN and CATHOLIC. Like they’re birds of a feather? Republicans are more pro-life and against gay marriage and stem cell nonsense (thank God to all!) but they’re also very hostile to labor, very much “hey buddy, you’re on your own!” when it comes to unemployment or health care and quality of life issues as well as the environment as well as VERY pro-war.

A “good” Catholic cannot really totally fit into either of these disgusting parties, in my humble opinion. I happen to be a union worker and, in fact, a union rep at my school site. And I’m proud of that. I also happen to care that my father and mother, who lost around $350,000 in their retirement stocks on September 11th, have their social security and medicare (that THEY paid into!) to survive. I also care that people have health insurance and that we take care of people (not permanently as Obama seems to want) for a while when they lose their jobs.

Republicans are extremists in their own right. They are strictly for management and the business owner and the corporate CEO and the workers, not so much. Hence their hatred for unions and labor in general. They hate pensions, hate to see people in labor get to negotiate so much and have rights. Republicans are hawkish and since the neo-cons hijacked the party they’ve become nation-building adventurers. They love to wave the flag and tell us all we’re either patriotic or not patriotic enough, etc. YET they outsource jobs to the Philippines and India and China. Outsourcing is not patriotic. NAFTA was not patriotic either. So the GOP has a credibility gap with patriotism and sending American jobs to the developing world. They’re hypocrites.

Then the Democrats patronize sinful lifestyles and try to “normalize” them. They are great about taking care of labor and pensiona and unions BUT they punish small businesses with unreasonable taxation and regulations go off the deep end. They’re a one-trick pony party whose only solution is “have the government run it!” They, in the end, lean toward socialism and an order in which they define what is P.C., inappropriate and appropriate. They create their own rules that they themselves break on a whim and yet when the GOP does it, it’s racist. They want open borders and chaos, abortion, and they’re naive about our Muslim enemies.

I hate 'em both actually and think they’re both evil in their own right. I hear few people in here denounce both their negatives. I usually hear patronization of Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Rush, Hannity, and trashing of Dems. I say trash 'em BOTH because neither of them cares about this country. One is out for $$$ at all costs, the other is out for power and social domination. Both are diabolical. A plague on both their houses I say

I say there is no reason for someone to be a member of EITHER of these parties to repond to your last statement!

Gurney - I agree. I am a peace-loving conservative who is for life and for the environment. (like St. Francis of Assisi) I think we are to be compassionate towards all - however, keep the government out and let the people and the churches take care of the less fortunate.

I did not want to vote for either party, but chose Republican because of the abortion issue.

We really need a 3rd option. Since you are already a union rep with leadership experience, maybe you are our man! Gurneyhalleck for president!

ps I think many Catholics are liberal Dems because they don’t know their catechism

 

[lax16]

I thought Mormons had a similar history, too. To avoid persecution is why they moved out west. Why did the Mormons, who admire Catholic teaching on life and moral issues, especially Humanæ Vitæ, not feel forced to choose between party and religion?

(description of book)
Charting the shift from radicalism to conservatism in the Mormon American West
In this unique study, Ethan R. Yorgason examines **the Mormon “culture region” of the American West, which in the late nineteenth century was characterized by sexual immorality, communalism, and anti-Americanism but is now marked by social **conservatism. Foregrounding the concept of region, Yorgason traces the conformist-conservative trajectory that arose from intense moral and ideological clashes between Mormons and non-Mormons from 1880 to 1920. Looking through the lenses of regional geography, history, and cultural studies, Yorgason investigates shifting moral orders relating to gender authority, economic responsibility, and national loyalty, community, and home life.
Transformation of the Mormon Culture Region charts how Mormons and non-Mormons resolved their cultural contradictions over time by a progressive narrowing of the range of moral positions on gender (in favor of Victorian gender relations), the economy (in favor of individual economics), and the nation (**identifying with national power and might). **Mormons and non-Mormons together constructed a regime of effective coexistence while retaining regional distinctiveness.

Ethan R. Yorgason is an adjunct assistant professor in the College of Arts and Sciences at Brigham Young University, Hawai’i.

I say: The Mormons have really changed their non-conforming ways regarding government.
They do have large families, but the Mormons I know personally are not anti-abortion/anti-contraception. I think the idea of large families is more about increasing the numbers not about being pro-life.

 

[campeador]

Do you think they are one issue voters?

“one issue voters”… What is that supposed to mean anyway?

It seems to me a catch phrase to minimize those who might think one issue is so overwhelming all others pale in comparison.
As Catherine D said:

The KEY position is about abortion.

Sadly it seems most Catholics don’t think it’s that important.

We will all have much to account for in the end.

 

[Todd520]

(description of book)
Charting the shift from radicalism to conservatism in the Mormon American West
In this unique study, Ethan R. Yorgason examines the Mormon “culture region” of the American West, which in the late nineteenth century was characterized by sexual immorality, communalism, and anti-Americanism but is now marked by social conservatism. … from intense moral and ideological clashes between Mormons and non-Mormons from 1880 to 1920.

Transformation of the Mormon Culture Region charts how Mormons and non-Mormons resolved their cultural contradictions over time by a progressive narrowing of the range of moral positions on gender (in favor of Victorian gender relations),
.

Sounds like an interesting book.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I say: The Mormons have really changed their non-conforming ways regarding government.
They do have large families, but the Mormons I know personally are not anti-abortion/anti-contraception. I think the idea of large families is more about increasing the numbers not about being pro-life.

Mormonism has a pragmatic morality.

The ends justify the means, the question is one of, what end is being worked towards? The success of Mormonism is the first end for Mormonism, all else follows.

 

[JohnnyReb]

“one issue voters”… What is that supposed to mean anyway?

It seems to me a catch phrase to minimize those who might think one issue is so overwhelming all others pale in comparison.
As Catherine D said:

Sadly it seems most Catholics don’t think it’s that important.

We will all have much to account for in the end.

Cool your jets man.

All I am asking is if people would vote for a pro-life candidate, even if he/she had weak positions on say, foreign policy, and did not know the difference between basic economics and a hole in the ground, or had no plan how to improve the quality of failing schools etc…

I hope that more Catholics do see the abortion issue as important, because it is, but its not the only important issue. That’s my point.

 

[Pahoran]

Mormonism has a pragmatic morality.

The ends justify the means, the question is one of, what end is being worked towards? The success of Mormonism is the first end for Mormonism, all else follows.

Can you document your accusation from some credible LDS source? Given (and it is a given) that all authentic LDS positions are documented in such sources? If so, then I’ll accept your characterisation. If not, then I’ll have to conclude that your accusation is as false as it is offensive.

Ah, RebeccaJ. That explains it.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormon Church back gay rights law

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) | The Mormon Church for the first time has announced its support of gay rights legislation, an endorsement that helped gain unanimous approval for Salt Lake city laws banning discrimination against gays in housing and employment.

…]

Passage made Salt Lake City the first Utah community to prohibit bias based on sexual orientation or gender identity. Under the two new ordinances, it is illegal to fire someone from their job or evict someone from their residence because they are lesbian, bisexual, gay or transgender.

…]

But addressing the council on Tuesday, Mr. Otterson said the endorsement is not a shift in the church’s position on gay rights and stressed it “remains unequivocally committed to defending the bedrock foundation of marriage between a man and a woman.”

Church support for the ordinances is due in part to the way the legislation was drafted to protect those rights. Exceptions in the legislation allow churches to maintain, without penalty, religious principles and religion-based codes of conduct or rules.

“In drafting these ordinances, the city has granted common-sense rights that should be available to everyone, while safeguarding the crucial rights of religious organizations,” Mr. Otterson said Tuesday.

So, the LDS church, one of the largest employers in UT, can fire someone for being gay but the rest of Salt Lake City cannot…including their own members.

 

[campeador]

Cool your jets man.

All I am asking is if people would vote for a pro-life candidate, even if he/she had weak positions on say, foreign policy, and did not know the difference between basic economics and a hole in the ground, or had no plan how to improve the quality of failing schools etc…

I hope that more Catholics do see the abortion issue as important, because it is, but its not the only important issue. That’s my point.

My friend, I believe I got your point the first time. I just don’t see how you can equate foreign policy, economics, and failing schools with abortion.

I’m sure the German people during WWII thought that constant allied bombing raids, the loss of loved ones, food and fuel rationing, etc. were important issues as well. More important than, say, the mass extermination of human beings?

 

[lax16]

Can you document your accusation from some credible LDS source? Given (and it is a given) that all authentic LDS positions are documented in such sources? If so, then I’ll accept your characterisation. If not, then I’ll have to conclude that your accusation is as false as it is offensive.

Ah, RebeccaJ. That explains it.

Regards,
Pahoran

Pahoran - Why don’t you, since you are a Mormon, provide church documentation showing where your church stands on these topics?

Why ask others to prove your religion for you? I think you should respond with official church teaching on the subject and not by attempting to discredit a poster (who happens to be a former Mormon btw - how typical! )

 

[JohnnyReb]

My friend, I believe I got your point the first time. I just don’t see how you can equate foreign policy, economics, and failing schools with abortion.

I’m sure the German people during WWII thought that constant allied bombing raids, the loss of loved ones, food and fuel rationing, etc. were important issues as well. More important than, say, the mass extermination of human beings?

There all important issues. I guess you didn’t get my point then. I guess the only thing that matters is abortion, nothing else does.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

I just read in a book one of the “General Authorities” from years past said you can’t be a good Mormon and liberal Democrat at the same time. I’m Democrat and somewhat liberal.
Talk about being hostile to Democrats, yikes! So they did’t let women pray in the sacrament meeting, blacks not allowed to have the priesthood, and Democrats not wanted. Uh, what do they want then? Follow-the-leader women to join and make babies with their missionaries?

 

[Todd520]

I just read in a book one of the “General Authorities” from years past said you can’t be a good Mormon and liberal Democrat at the same time. I’m Democrat and somewhat liberal.
Talk about being hostile to Democrats, yikes! So they did’t let women pray in the sacrament meeting, blacks not allowed to have the priesthood, and Democrats not wanted. Uh, what do they want then? Follow-the-leader women to join and make babies with their missionaries?

OHHH, Another drive-by shooting at LDS

Hmmm, most of the serious posters on here have made it clear

• One cannot be a liberal Democrat and a good Roman Catholic

I’m really confused how you always turn Catholic virtues into LDS conspiracy/weakness/evil (take your pick)

 

[Todd520]

Pahoran - Why don’t you, since you are a Mormon, provide church documentation showing where your church stands on these topics?

Why ask others to prove your religion for you? I think you should respond with official church teaching on the subject and not by attempting to discredit a poster (who happens to be a former Mormon btw - how typical! )

Now, now - If Rebecca made a statement then she should back it up

• is it her personal opinion based on observation? (supporting logic needed)
• is it based on other pundits or outside ‘experts’? (links to full analysis needed)
• is it LDS practice and policy? (links to official doctrine or published material needed)

Rebecca needs to be an adult and support her own assertations.

 

[lax16]

Now, now - If Rebecca made a statement then she should back it up

• is it her personal opinion based on observation? (supporting logic needed)
• is it based on other pundits or outside ‘experts’? (links to full analysis needed)
• is it LDS practice and policy? (links to official doctrine or published material needed)

Rebecca needs to be an adult and support her own assertations.

Todd - I have no doubt that Rebecca will support her own assertations. She always does.

Please stop defecting…you never answer any questions but jump in and respond with more questions! Ugh - you are starting to drive me crazy. Are you whyme reincarnated?

How funny that you are asking for “supporting logic, links to full analysis, and links to official doctrine or published material.” Why don’t you provide something - anything - on a topic instead of saying it is “too complex for your brain to comprehend.”

(This is the first time I have considered putting someone on ignore. I don’t want to, Todd, but you don’t move the conversations in a forward manner).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Now, now - If Rebecca made a statement then she should back it up

• is it her personal opinion based on observation? (supporting logic needed)
• is it based on other pundits or outside ‘experts’? (links to full analysis needed)
• is it LDS practice and policy? (links to official doctrine or published material needed)

Rebecca needs to be an adult and support her own assertations.

Maybe you should pay attention and read post #50 for an example of the pragmatism found in LDS morality, as applied to politics.

 

[Todd520]

Todd - I have no doubt that Rebecca will support her own assertations. She always does.

Please stop defecting…you never answer any questions but jump in and respond with more questions! Ugh - you are starting to drive me crazy. Are you whyme reincarnated?

How funny that you are asking for “supporting logic, links to full analysis, and links to official doctrine or published material.” Why don’t you provide something - anything - on a topic instead of saying it is “too complex for your brain to comprehend.”

(This is the first time I have considered putting someone on ignore. I don’t want to, Todd, but you don’t move the conversations in a forward manner).

Hmm, i just looked back two pages of posts, and can’t find where you’ve posted any questions for my attention, are you deflecting?
(like you tried to deflect our ask of Rebecca for supporting material)

Anyhooo, it’s always good to restate your questions. This is a long thread.