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lax16
Guest
I am referring to your posting style in general.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I was thinking he is the why me of 25 years ago.Please stop defecting…you never answer any questions but jump in and respond with more questions! Ugh - you are starting to drive me crazy. Are you whyme reincarnated?
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ManOnFire
Guest
Good post.
Too many of us Catholics have come to worship the values of the unelected pop culture media without realizing it. It’s too bad they are busy ruining relationships by promoting individula selfishness and reducing people into neanderthals who crave love-less lust and chemical brain pleasurism. I’m still trying to figure out what part of this is even remotely Catholic.
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Todd520
Guest
Thanks for the supporting example. I found the post to show the LDS as very Christian and within the Articles of Faith for LDS.
I would have been unhappy if they had not supported the changes (more pragmatic in my eyes)
I don’t believe they are legally required to apply it to church employment. All denominations of faith have expectations they hold their staff to as representatives of the faith.
For a bit of contrast, does the Catholic conglomerate have a position on hiring practicing gays? (not celebate priests)
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twopekinguys
Guest
You might want to tread lightly making statements like this.
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Catherine_D
Guest
The Director of our Music Ministry is gay (not sure if he is practicing or not and it isn’t my business anyway.) When he was hired he wasn’t Catholic but he has since been confirmed.
Not sure what the position of the Church may or may not be, but there’s an example.
Let’s hear yours.
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twopekinguys
Guest
I agree.Pahoran - Why don’t you, since you are a Mormon, provide church documentation showing where your church stands on these topics?
Why ask others to prove your religion for you? I think you should respond with official church teaching on the subject and not by attempting to discredit a poster (who happens to be a former Mormon btw - how typical!)
After all, he has said he is here to “defend” his church.
Time to show us what you’re defending.
I have heard it over and over and over again, that nobody gets to tell them what they believe (even if references are provided), yet, we don’t see anything to back up their “defense”.
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Todd520
Guest
To be clear, I believe both the Catholic and LDS faiths have the right to not hire someone because of their preference. I belive I am just stating my support for the law though
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twopekinguys
Guest
Whether you aree with the law or not, is not relevant.
What is relevant is your statement containing 1)Catholic conglomorate 2) Practing gays (non celibate priests), one does not equate to the other, and the Church is not a conglomorate.
You might want to review the forum rules. Specifically under “conduct”, item 1, and innuendo.
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LongJourney
Guest
I also infer that he believes that Catholic priests are predominantly SSA.
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Todd520
Guest
Apologies, here is a non-offending question equal to the starting post.
For a bit of contrast, does the Catholic Church Organization have a position on hiring practicing gays?
For a bit of contrast, does the Catholic Church Organization have a position on hiring practicing gays?
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Catherine_D
Guest
While you’re asking, please address post #65.
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Todd520
Guest
I believe in tolerance and would hope that sexual orientation is not a hiring criteria in most cases. However, that does not mean I want to force it on a Faith based organization.
I don’t have any good or bad examples of LDS church conduct in this area.
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lax16
Guest
I am not sure if this is off-topic but here goes:
CONGREGATION FOR CATHOLIC EDUCATION
Instruction
Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations
with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies
in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders
Introduction
In continuity with the teaching of the Second Vatican Council and, in particular, with the Decree Optatam Totius[1] on priestly formation, the Congregation for Catholic Education has published various Documents with the aim of promoting a suitable, integral formation of future priests, by offering guidelines and precise norms regarding its diverse aspects.[2] In the meantime, the 1990 Synod of Bishops also reflected on the formation of priests in the circumstances of the present day, with the intention of bringing to completion the doctrine of the Council on this theme and making it more explicit and effective in today’s world. Following this Synod, Pope John Paul II published the Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation Pastores Dabo Vobis.[3]
In light of this abundant teaching, the present Instruction does not intend to dwell on all questions in the area of affectivity and sexuality that require an attentive discernment during the entire period of formation. Rather, it contains norms concerning a specific question, made more urgent by the current situation, and that is: whether to admit to the seminary and to holy orders candidates who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies.
- Affective Maturity and Spiritual Fatherhood
The candidate to the ordained ministry, therefore, must reach affective maturity. Such maturity will allow him to relate correctly to both men and women, developing in him a true sense of spiritual fatherhood towards the Church community that will be entrusted to him[7].
- Homosexuality and the Ordained Ministry
Regarding acts, it teaches that Sacred Scripture presents them as grave sins. The Tradition has constantly considered them as intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law. Consequently, under no circumstance can they be approved.
Deep-seated homosexual tendencies, which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God’s will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter[8].
In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture”[10].
Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women. One must in no way overlook the negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies.
Different, however, would be the case in which one were dealing with homosexual tendencies that were only the expression of a transitory problem - for example, that of an adolescence not yet superseded. Nevertheless, such tendencies must be clearly overcome at least three years before ordination to the diaconate.
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lax16
Guest
continued:
The formation of the future priest must distinctly articulate, in an essentially complementary manner, the four dimensions of formation: human, spiritual, intellectual and pastoral[14]. In this context, it is necessary to highlight the particular importance of human formation as the necessary foundation of all formation[15]. In order to admit a candidate to ordination to the diaconate, the Church must verify, among other things, that the candidate has reached affective maturity[16].
The call to orders is the personal responsibility of the Bishop[17] or the major superior. Bearing in mind the opinion of those to whom he has entrusted the responsibility of formation, the Bishop or major superior, before admitting the candidate to ordination, must arrive at a morally certain judgment on his qualities. In the case of a serious doubt in this regard, he must not admit him to ordination[18].
The discernment of a vocation and of the maturity of the candidate is also a serious duty of the rector and of the other persons entrusted with the work of formation in the seminary. Before every ordination, the rector must express his own judgment on whether the qualities required by the Church are present in the candidate[19].
In the discernment concerning the suitability for ordination, the spiritual director has an important task. Although he is bound to secrecy, he represents the Church in the internal forum. In his discussions with the candidate, the spiritual director must especially point out the demands of the Church concerning priestly chastity and the affective maturity that is characteristic of the priest, as well as help him to discern whether he has the necessary qualities[20]. The spiritual director has the obligation to evaluate all the qualities of the candidate’s personality and to make sure that he does not present disturbances of a sexual nature, which are incompatible with the priesthood. If a candidate practises homosexuality or presents deep-seated homosexual tendencies, his spiritual director as well as his confessor have the duty to dissuade him in conscience from proceeding towards ordination.
It goes without saying that the candidate himself has the primary responsibility for his own formation[21]. He must offer himself trustingly to the discernment of the Church, of the Bishop who calls him to orders, of the rector of the seminary, of his spiritual director and of the other seminary educators to whom the Bishop or major superior has entrusted the task of forming future priests. It would be gravely dishonest for a candidate to hide his own homosexuality in order to proceed, despite everything, towards ordination. Such a deceitful attitude does not correspond to the spirit of truth, loyalty and openness that must characterize the personality of him who believes he is called to serve Christ and his Church in the ministerial priesthood.
Conclusion
This Congregation reaffirms the need for Bishops, major superiors and all relevant authorities to carry out an attentive discernment concerning the suitability of candidates for holy orders, from the time of admission to the seminary until ordination. This discernment must be done in light of a conception of the ministerial priesthood that is in accordance with the teaching of the Church.
Let Bishops, episcopal conferences and major superiors look to see that the constant norms of this Instruction be faithfully observed for the good of the candidates themselves, and to guarantee that the Church always has suitable priests who are true shepherds according to the Heart of Christ.
The Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI, on 31 August 2005, approved this present Instruction and ordered its publication.
Rome, 4 November 2005, Memorial of St Charles Borromeo, Patron of Seminaries
Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski
Prefect
J. Michael Miller, C.S.B.
Tit. Archbp. of Vertara
Secretary
- Discernment by the Church Concerning the Suitability of Candidates
The formation of the future priest must distinctly articulate, in an essentially complementary manner, the four dimensions of formation: human, spiritual, intellectual and pastoral[14]. In this context, it is necessary to highlight the particular importance of human formation as the necessary foundation of all formation[15]. In order to admit a candidate to ordination to the diaconate, the Church must verify, among other things, that the candidate has reached affective maturity[16].
The call to orders is the personal responsibility of the Bishop[17] or the major superior. Bearing in mind the opinion of those to whom he has entrusted the responsibility of formation, the Bishop or major superior, before admitting the candidate to ordination, must arrive at a morally certain judgment on his qualities. In the case of a serious doubt in this regard, he must not admit him to ordination[18].
The discernment of a vocation and of the maturity of the candidate is also a serious duty of the rector and of the other persons entrusted with the work of formation in the seminary. Before every ordination, the rector must express his own judgment on whether the qualities required by the Church are present in the candidate[19].
In the discernment concerning the suitability for ordination, the spiritual director has an important task. Although he is bound to secrecy, he represents the Church in the internal forum. In his discussions with the candidate, the spiritual director must especially point out the demands of the Church concerning priestly chastity and the affective maturity that is characteristic of the priest, as well as help him to discern whether he has the necessary qualities[20]. The spiritual director has the obligation to evaluate all the qualities of the candidate’s personality and to make sure that he does not present disturbances of a sexual nature, which are incompatible with the priesthood. If a candidate practises homosexuality or presents deep-seated homosexual tendencies, his spiritual director as well as his confessor have the duty to dissuade him in conscience from proceeding towards ordination.
It goes without saying that the candidate himself has the primary responsibility for his own formation[21]. He must offer himself trustingly to the discernment of the Church, of the Bishop who calls him to orders, of the rector of the seminary, of his spiritual director and of the other seminary educators to whom the Bishop or major superior has entrusted the task of forming future priests. It would be gravely dishonest for a candidate to hide his own homosexuality in order to proceed, despite everything, towards ordination. Such a deceitful attitude does not correspond to the spirit of truth, loyalty and openness that must characterize the personality of him who believes he is called to serve Christ and his Church in the ministerial priesthood.
Conclusion
This Congregation reaffirms the need for Bishops, major superiors and all relevant authorities to carry out an attentive discernment concerning the suitability of candidates for holy orders, from the time of admission to the seminary until ordination. This discernment must be done in light of a conception of the ministerial priesthood that is in accordance with the teaching of the Church.
Let Bishops, episcopal conferences and major superiors look to see that the constant norms of this Instruction be faithfully observed for the good of the candidates themselves, and to guarantee that the Church always has suitable priests who are true shepherds according to the Heart of Christ.
The Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI, on 31 August 2005, approved this present Instruction and ordered its publication.
Rome, 4 November 2005, Memorial of St Charles Borromeo, Patron of Seminaries
Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski
Prefect
J. Michael Miller, C.S.B.
Tit. Archbp. of Vertara
Secretary
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Catherine_D
Guest
Is there a Catholic policy regarding persons who work for the Church but are not clergy?
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RebeccaJ
Guest
How so? Isn’t what is good for the organization also good for its members? Isn’t it strange to keep morality based protections around an organization, but not the members of that organization?
Of course the more Christian approach is to hire people based on their qualifications, not on what sins they do or don’t commit. Obviously, you don’t agree:
What’s a Catholic conglomerate?
I think you are not understanding Catholic morality. What is immoral is immoral for everyone, not just the employees of the church.
But then, we are Christians, and believe people have the right to work.
We also believe there is not a person who is without sin, and so it is hypocritical to deny a person employment based on what sins they may be committing. So, unlike the LDS church, there is no personal interview that asks what sins are being committed in order to screen a person for employment.
PS: The law doesn’t say anything about “practicing homosexuals”. A person can self-identify as homosexual without “practicing” anything.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Most I know of are like the one posted at the Diocese of Gary:
Equal Opportunity Employer
The Diocese of Gary is an Equal Opportunity Employer. The Diocese of Gary assures equal employment opportunity in all its employment policies and practices.
These policies and practices are administered without regard to race, color, national origin, age, gender, marital status, political affiliation, veteran status, service membership, sexual orientation or mental or physical disabilities not affecting one’s ability to perform the essential functions of one’s job. there are certain positions in the Diocese of Gary for which it is necessary to be Catholic, and some positions for which preference in hiring shall be given to people who are Catholic and who evidence an understanding of the Catholic faith and a commitment to living that faith. Such preference is allowed under state and federal law, and does not constitute an illegal act of discrimination.
or
Catholic Charities of St. Paul MN
It is important for all applicants to understand and support the mission, goals and aims of Catholic Charities and the programs while conducting their duties in an unbiased manner in accordance with the agency’s mission statement and guiding principles by which all clients, volunteers and staff are treated equally regardless of race, gender, religion, age, physical and mental abilities and/or sexual orientation. Diverse candidates encouraged to apply.
Catholic Charities will not discriminate against or harass any employee or applicant for employment because of race, creed, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, marital status, disability, status with regard to public assistance, membership or activity in a local commission, sexual or affectional preference or orientation, ancestry, familial status, or any other legally protected group. View our affirmative action plan.
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Todd520
Guest
Lax & Rebecca, thank you for the information.
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lax16
Guest
from Catechesi Tradendae
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_16101979_catechesi-tradendae_en.html
Lay Catechists
- I am anxious to give thanks in the Church’s name to all of you, lay teachers of catechesis in the parishes, the men and the still more numerous women throughout the world who are devoting yourselves to the religious education of many generations. Your work is often lowly and hidden but it is carried out with ardent and generous zeal, and it is an eminent form of the lay apostolate, a form that is particularly important where for various reasons children and young people do not receive suitable religious training in the home. How many of us have received from people like you our first notions of catechism and our preparation for the sacrament of Penance, for our first Communion and Confirmation! The fourth general assembly of the synod did not forget you. I join with it in encouraging you to continue your collaboration for the life of the Church.
In the Parish
- I now wish to speak of the actual setting in which all these catechists normally work. I am returning this time, taking a more overall view, to the “places” for catechesis, some of which have already been mentioned in chapter VI: the parish, the family, the school, organizations.
In short, without monopolizing or enforcing uniformity, the parish remains, as I have said, the pre-eminent place for catechesis. It must rediscover its vocation, which is to be a fraternal and welcoming family home, where those who have been baptized and confirmed become aware of forming the People of God. In that home, the bread of good doctrine and the Eucharistic Bread are broken for them in abundance, in the setting of the one act of worship(117); from that home they are sent out day by day to their apostolic mission in all the centers of activity of the life of the world.
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