2 different Baptisms?

[grannymh]

The full quote reads:

This can’t be used definitively to support the idea that St. Teresa prayed in tongues. She doesn’t say whether the prayer is verbal or interior, but it’s more likely interior since it is in the higher mansion. From that interior joy overflows the desire of the soul to have others know of this joy and the greatness of the God Who gives it. The “gibberish” isn’t in the prayer, but in her attempt to explain this experience to her daughters in Carmel.

Apparently, there are different translations of the *Interior Castle. *Mine says: Translated and Edited by E. Allison Peers from the Critical Edition of P. Silverio De Santa Teresa, C.D. It doesn’t use the word “gibberish”

In his brief notes for “Sixth Mansions, Chapter 6,” this translator comments: “Treats of another favour which the Lord grants to the soul so that He may use it to sing His praises.”

This book predates the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Yet, the translator’s description of this particular favor matches a description of the Holy Spirit’s gift of prayer tongues.

In my humble opinion, the correct understanding of what is involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal’s meaning of Baptism of the Spirit will eventually lead to the various Gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is because it leads to a deep devotional life, including Sacred Scripture and the Sacraments especially the Holy Eucharist. For the person, it marks the beginning of a closer union with God.
A closer union with God – isn’t that the point of Interior Castle?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I’d say you are correct. Manifestation of some gift of the Holy Spirit does not constitute another baptism.

Chuck

Nor is one required to show that we are “saved” as many charismatics believe.

 

[grannymh]

May I respectfully point out that Catholic Charismatics should not be included as part of “many charismatics” when one says: “Nor is one required to show that we are “saved” as many charismatics believe.”

I wish someone could explain why good Catholics rely on Protestant experiences to explain the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal goes straight back to Acts and St. Paul. The Protestant Reformation is not a pit stop.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

May I respectfully point out that Catholic Charismatics should not be included as part of “many charismatics” when one says: “Nor is one required to show that we are “saved” as many charismatics believe.”

I wish that was true but I have run into Catholic Charismatics who say that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is required and is only evidenced by prayer in tongues, almost identical what I was told by members of the Assemblies of God, a pentacostal denominatoin.

There is a belief in the Charismatic movement that there are 2 baptisms, two different types of christians, those who have been baptised by the Holy Spirit and those who haven’t.

To even speak of a “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” creates this misunderstanding and creates two classes of christians.

This is why I have never been able to accept the idea of the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”.

 

[tskrobacz]

Acts 1:5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. - While we only celebrate a single sacramental baptism, you must also be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Typically this is viewed as confirmation - although the actual experience of baptism by the spirit often comes much later in life.

 

[Todd_Easton]

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that the effects of the sacrament of Baptism, and presumably the other sacraments as well, can be hindered by lack of devotion and insincerity on the part of the person receiving the sacrament but that they will be received as soon as the lack of devotion and insincerity cease. This might explain why for a person may have a delayed “born again” experience or “baptism in the Holy Spirit” experience long after the reception of a sacrament.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I don’t even think the term “born again” should be used in that manner. The early fathers considered “born again” to be referring to baptism, so much so that they translated John 3:5 as “born again” when they quoted it. ANY other use of the term tends to be protestant in origin since they mean “a” baptism as usually referring to “the” baptism, and is apparently leading to confusion amongst both cradle Catholics and converts. Experiencing the Holy Spirit per Acts chapter 1 “later in life” is a bit irrelevant, since it is referring ahead to the future event of Pentecost, and Confirmation is rooted in Pentecost. It’s a non-argument. “A” baptism of the Spirit, should never be misconstrued as “THE” baptism of the Spirit. And so it is most likely best if the term “baptism of the Spirit” is not used at all in this manner. The explanation just given about Saint Thomas Aquinas and our own sinful obstructions of the grace already given to us in Confirmation for our ministry is probably one of the best ways to understand it.

I’m all for the “charismatic” notion of getting in touch with the gifts God has given us through the Spirit. That being said, I think we should cease applying protestant convert terminology to Catholic ideas, because our acceptance and usage of that terminology can mistakenly be taken for acceptance of a potentially heretical concept, i.e, “Baptism of the Spirit” in the subjective sense.

 

[grannymh]

I wish that was true but I have run into Catholic Charismatics who say that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is required and is only evidenced by prayer in tongues, almost identical what I was told by members of the Assemblies of God, a pentacostal denominatoin.

I have heard there are Catholics who erroneously consider praying in tongues as some kind of badge. And now you have assured me that they do exist. My answer is that this is not the norm in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. In fact, often in preparation for Baptism of the Holy Spirit, there are instructions as to what happens when one yields to the Holy Spirit and the gift of praying in tongues is not immediately received.

There is a belief in the Charismatic movement that there are 2 baptisms, two different types of christians, those who have been baptised by the Holy Spirit and those who haven’t.

This is not a true Catholic approach.

To even speak of a “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” creates this misunderstanding and creates two classes of christians.

I agree that this does create misunderstanding. But in all my studies of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I have never learned about two classes of Christians in relationship to the Holy Spirit. Nonetheless, I am sure that Catholics give into pride along with other Christians.

This is why I have never been able to accept the idea of the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”.

I understand your point. I truly wish you could get a hold of the book
A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church** ISBN: 0-87029-033-9**
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh
Key of David Publications

This book is written in question and answer form. Your concerns are answered in the first few chapters.

There is nothing wrong in not accepting the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. However, that decision should be made with full knowledge of what the Catholic Charismatic Renewal means. One should know why abuses are abuses.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for spiritual truth needs Catholicism.