2 disagreements so im not a real Catholic?

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^ And part of being a true son, is being a true brother.

The Catholic Church is a family, and family relationships come with obligations, not just privileges of membership. When individual members of a family do not fulfill their obligations, the entire family suffers.
 
benidict
**
This is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Thick book huh? I agree with everything in this book. With the exeption of 2 issues. Should I change my religious affiliation and leave the Church? One of the issues is moral, the other is socialogical. Your thoughts. Peace**

As a true son of the Catholic Church, you should obey your mother even when you resent her judgment. As Elizabeth said, if you are a Catholic you should not be leading other Catholics astray by arguing against the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

That way lies the Protestant error of private interpretation and the belief that Catholic teachings cannot ever really be Catholic (Universal). :rolleyes:
It is a matter of concience not of private interpretation. Therein lies the difference. Im also a soldier. Do I obey the orders of those above me? You bet I do. But NOT when the order that has been given is Illegal. Then it is my duty and my moral obligation to oppose it. I have not listed my oppositions with specifics here for a reason. I could probably successfully defend them. But to what end? Again. Am I allowed to disagree on any one point, and retain my human ability to reason? Or do I just abandon my mind to the control of someone else? That would be foollishness. Are you saying you are in 100 percent agreement with every single teaching from the magesterium? That you dont in the back of your mind think that maybe, just maybe, someone didnt think something thru? Unintended consequences can and do happen, do they not? Peace 🙂
 
One of them is a bigee, the other is quite minor in my opinion. I am not a progressive. I am very much a Libertarian with conservative leanings, just not on the ultra right. The Big issue is a Life issue. the smaller one, deals with something I personally think is just silly and a part of being a guy. And yet the Church goes nuts. I dont care much for the progressives either. the view I hold, on the big issue, is considered a conservative view in most other aspects of society. Peace 🙂
So one of your disagreements, it appears, is Church teaching on masturbation-which you believe is a guy thing?

I suspect the other is abortion but I been struck with the the fact throughout this whole thread that you’re reluctant to tell us what these issues are, almost as if you are afraid to have people present to you why your understanding is wrong for fear you would have to acknowledge that they are indeed sins.
 
So one of your disagreements, it appears, is Church teaching on masturbation-which you believe is a guy thing?

I suspect the other is abortion but I been struck with the the fact throughout this whole thread that you’re reluctant to tell us what these issues are, almost as if you are afraid to have people present to you why your understanding is wrong for fear you would have to acknowledge that they are indeed sins.
Not at all. Im not afraid to debate any point. Its just not the subject of the thread. And even If you are correct, I will not take the bait. I will ask you my dear friend. Are you in 100% in agreement with the Catechism. Not that you just willy nilly want to have your own view on something, but a real belief that you cant for the life of you, figure out, HOW they came up with a certain view. That totally goes against your concience?
 
I believe th Roman Catholic Church, IS the Church that Christ founded. I believe The magesterium is the final authority. I cannot in my own conscience submit myself to 2 of the items in the Catechism.
I guess the question(s) would be WHY do you believe the Church has final authority and WHAT does that mean to you? If you believe (as you ought) that it is because it is Christ’s own authority and that it cannot err in faith and morals, then why would you disagree? That would seem to be a claim to know better than God, (if you follow that line of thinking.) Perhaps your answer the the former is different?
Are you saying you are in 100 percent agreement with every single teaching from the magesterium?
Absolutely.
 
Do I obey the orders of those above me? You bet I do. But NOT when the order that has been given is Illegal. Then it is my duty and my moral obligation to oppose it
Are you under the impression that that the Church’s teachings about masturbation (just a “guy thing”, not a gal thing :rolleyes:) are “illegal”? That it is “your duty and obligation” to oppose those Church teachings?
Am I allowed to disagree on any one point, and retain my human ability to reason? Or do I just abandon my mind to the control of someone else?
Do you feel that citizens of the U.S. are free to disregard those aspects of the U.S. constitution that they “disagree” with? Or, if they disagree but follow them anyway, have they lost “their human ability to reason”?
 
It is a matter of concience not of private interpretation. Therein lies the difference. Im also a soldier. Do I obey the orders of those above me? You bet I do. But NOT when the order that has been given is Illegal. Then it is my duty and my moral obligation to oppose it. I have not listed my oppositions with specifics here for a reason. I could probably successfully defend them. But to what end? Again. Am I allowed to disagree on any one point, and retain my human ability to reason? Or do I just abandon my mind to the control of someone else? That would be foollishness. Are you saying you are in 100 percent agreement with every single teaching from the magesterium? That you dont in the back of your mind think that maybe, just maybe, someone didnt think something thru? Unintended consequences can and do happen, do they not? Peace 🙂
For what it’s worth, I support your freedom of individual conscience. Even though my own faith does not have an official Church teaching, we do have the Torah rules (and Talmudic tradition) which my fellow Orthodox Jews constantly remind me of by telling me that I cannot just pick and choose what I like to follow. I understand their viewpoint, but I disagree on certain things that seem “silly” or even wrong to me. Maybe not the best justification, but I can’t help it. My individual conscience and reason are stronger than what I consider blind faith. I also don’t agree with Elizabeth (friend that she is) that you are leading other Catholics astray by disagreeing with some of the Church’s teachings. Catholicism has a history of disagreement within the Church (and I’m not talking only about Protestant “heretics”), and the Church has changed some of its views throughout history. (Of course, certain positions–particularly basic dogma, such as the belief in the Trinity–have not and will not change.) Free discussion of ideas is, in my view, permissible and, more than that, a good thing for everyone. If Catholics are so easily persuaded by a single opinion on a Forum, they couldn’t have been very decisive in their faith to begin with. The purpose of this Forum is to discuss a variety of opinions on all kinds of issues, so that one may be exposed to different points of view and perhaps make a decision accordingly, or at least be informed of different perspectives. Otherwise, we are all just preaching to the choir and validating what we already know. Now, for some, that may also be reassuring, and that’s fine as well.
 
I also don’t agree with Elizabeth (friend that she is) that you are leading other Catholics astray by disagreeing with some of the Church’s teachings.
That’s not what I said. I said that he is not free to tell other Catholics, on or off the forum, that a private, non-standard version of Catholicism is legitimate if a Catholic “disagrees” with one, two, or two hundred teachings. A certain level of obedience in activity (not intellectual understanding or intellectual “agreement”) is required. You need to read all of Benidict’s statements, including on other threads, such as when Catholics or non-Catholics say that such-and-such is difficult to follow, etc., and he chimes in and says essentially, “No problem. I oppose some things and it’s perfectly OK to do that and be Catholic.” (Not to “think” that and be Catholic.)

Yes, it doesn’t change your membership (or privileges) in the Church. It just changes the state of your soul, that’s all, if you are acting upon the disagreements, and those areas are core matters of morality or belief.
 
It is a matter of concience not of private interpretation. Therein lies the difference. Im also a soldier. Do I obey the orders of those above me? You bet I do. But NOT when the order that has been given is Illegal. Then it is my duty and my moral obligation to oppose it. I have not listed my oppositions with specifics here for a reason. I could probably successfully defend them. But to what end? Again. Am I allowed to disagree on any one point, and retain my human ability to reason? Or do I just abandon my mind to the control of someone else? That would be foollishness. Are you saying you are in 100 percent agreement with every single teaching from the magesterium? That you dont in the back of your mind think that maybe, just maybe, someone didnt think something thru? Unintended consequences can and do happen, do they not? Peace 🙂
I may have a sense of your dilemma. I am a former Marine, and I have disobeyed an direct order, in the face of the person giving the order. The particular case was when a missile strike was ordered to be called in which would have been “danger close”. It was against procedure, though not technically illegal, for the commander to issue that order. He was incompetent, in my judgment at the moment. There was a real possibility that if I called in the strike that myself and other Marines could have been wounded or killed.

But… it was a judgment call on my part. In his eyes I had a moral obligation to obey his direct order. In my eyes I had a moral obligation to disobey his direct order. I was willing to suffer the legal consequences of that decision, if it came to that.

Personally, I am gay. Big issue around here, and with the Church, and with its relationship to society as civil rights are won. The Church had the same struggle over slavery in the 1800’s.

I was baptized as a Catholic. I have been estranged from the Church at least for much of my life in a large measure because of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality. It is difficult to reconcile one’s life to the teachings of the Church, if they ring hollow to one’s own life experience. Every gay person knows a couple of things (1) sexuality is not a choice; (2) coming to realize one’s sexuality is not much different from person to person. It feels normal and natural (in the commonly used sense, not the theological sense). So as a younger person, I had a strong opinion that the Church was simply wrong. That opinion was well and reasonably founded in my life experience, and also by the opinion of the medical community who specializes in such matters.

I failed to understand that when the Church labels something as “objectively disordered”, that the phrase is meant in the context of a theological view of what is “natural”, and not in a scientific or secular sense. That judgment is a moral teaching, not a statement of more objective fact, as a modern persons understands scientific objectivity. The Church are very careful to avoid the causative question, which seems to be lost on some Catholics. As the scientific evidence accumulates to confirm the internal experience of gay people, I imagine that the Church will be faced with an interesting dilemma. This may be my own prejudice, but I am expecting the Church to struggle with this over the coming decades as more biological evidence accrues. At present, I am willing to accept a teaching from a higher authority which is discordant to my perceived reality. As immature as I am, I am aware enough to know that my perceptions are not objective.

I don’t know if that helps to clarify your own moral dilemmas. Maybe there is something in there of use.
 
Not at all. Im not afraid to debate any point. Its just not the subject of the thread. And even If you are correct, I will not take the bait. I will ask you my dear friend. Are you in 100% in agreement with the Catechism. Not that you just willy nilly want to have your own view on something, but a real belief that you cant for the life of you, figure out, HOW they came up with a certain view. That totally goes against your concience?
If something in the catechism goes against my conscience I know the problem is with me, not what the church. I have expressed before that there are teachings of the church that I do indeed disagree with but I accept them and prayerfully consider why I am in error
 
It is a matter of concience not of private interpretation. Therein lies the difference. Im also a soldier. Do I obey the orders of those above me? You bet I do. But NOT when the order that has been given is Illegal. Then it is my duty and my moral obligation to oppose it. I have not listed my oppositions with specifics here for a reason. I could probably successfully defend them. But to what end? Again. Am I allowed to disagree on any one point, and retain my human ability to reason? Or do I just abandon my mind to the control of someone else? That would be foollishness. Are you saying you are in 100 percent agreement with every single teaching from the magesterium? That you dont in the back of your mind think that maybe, just maybe, someone didnt think something thru? Unintended consequences can and do happen, do they not? Peace 🙂
A conscience that disagrees with the Church is private interpretation. I have noted earlier in this thread that there is a difference between rejecting a doctrine and disagreeing with the doctrine. When you disagree, it is your responsibility to pray and research it in earnest until you agree with the Church (depending on what level of authority the Church puts behind that particular doctrine).

Your comparison of the Church with the government is flawed because the Church cannot give immoral orders.

I am in 100% agreement with the Church. I give my assent of faith to the Magisterium. I recognize that in some areas I am blind, and in those areas I must follow blindly.
 
That’s not what I said. I said that he is not free to tell other Catholics, on or off the forum, that a private, non-standard version of Catholicism is legitimate if a Catholic “disagrees” with one, two, or two hundred teachings. A certain level of obedience in activity (not intellectual understanding or intellectual “agreement”) is required. You need to read all of Benidict’s statements, including on other threads, such as when Catholics or non-Catholics say that such-and-such is difficult to follow, etc., and he chimes in and says essentially, “No problem. I oppose some things and it’s perfectly OK to do that and be Catholic.” (Not to “think” that and be Catholic.)

Yes, it doesn’t change your membership (or privileges) in the Church. It just changes the state of your soul, that’s all, if you are acting upon the disagreements, and those areas are core matters of morality or belief.
I stand corrected, Elizabeth. The example you gave is direct advice against Church teaching, not in the realm of discussion of issues. OK, Benidict, you’re on your own now! (Not really, of course.)
 
benidict

It is a matter of concience not of private interpretation. Therein lies the difference. Im also a soldier. Do I obey the orders of those above me? You bet I do. But NOT when the order that has been given is Illegal. Then it is my duty and my moral obligation to oppose it. I have not listed my oppositions with specifics here for a reason. I could probably successfully defend them. But to what end? Again. Am I allowed to disagree on any one point, and retain my human ability to reason? Or do I just abandon my mind to the control of someone else? That would be foollishness. Are you saying you are in 100 percent agreement with every single teaching from the magesterium? That you dont in the back of your mind think that maybe, just maybe, someone didnt think something thru? Unintended consequences can and do happen, do they not? Peace

Your conscience should have taught you to submit to the teachings of the Church, not to rebel against them as did Luther and others.

The Church has made clear its teachings through the Magisterium. Do you think the Church should have consulted you beforehand for your approval, and that you can now in good conscience rebel against the teachings because you were not consulted?

Who taught you that conscience trumps the Magisterium?

Whew! :coolinoff:
 
It is a matter of concience not of private interpretation. Therein lies the difference. Im also a soldier. Do I obey the orders of those above me? You bet I do. But NOT when the order that has been given is Illegal. Then it is my duty and my moral obligation to oppose it. I have not listed my oppositions with specifics here for a reason. I could probably successfully defend them. But to what end? Again. Am I allowed to disagree on any one point, and retain my human ability to reason? Or do I just abandon my mind to the control of someone else? That would be foollishness. Are you saying you are in 100 percent agreement with every single teaching from the magesterium? That you dont in the back of your mind think that maybe, just maybe, someone didnt think something thru? Unintended consequences can and do happen, do they not? Peace 🙂
#1 =You seem to be saying that obedience (not “agreement,” but obedience = “abandoning control of your mind to someone else.” No one’s controlling your mind.

#2 - (bolded portion). An awful lot of Catholics, including an awful lot of holy Catholics, are not necesarily “in 100% agreement.” It’s just that they recognize another entity besides themselves as having the voice of moral authority.

You also make it seem that the body of moral teaching is arbitrary, and/or the work of one person. In point of fact the moral teachings derive from tradition, Sacred Scripture, and truths logically emanating from the philosophical vision of the Church (which itself derives from Scripture) – such as divine law, the concept of an ordered universe, etc. They were not capriciously arrived at.

#3 - The comparison with military obedience is not quite parallel, since military rules & orders are humanly derived, and thus have less finality to them. The Church does not require us to act illegally.
 
benidict

Are you saying you are in 100 percent agreement with every single teaching from the magesterium?

Not every single teaching requires strict agreement. But it’s clear which teaching is strictly required and which is up for debate and possible alteration.

At present the Church teaches that a celibate priesthood is best for the Church. I don’t agree 100%. But even the Magisterium admits that this teaching, which is prudential policy rather than dogma, is not absolute and can be altered without altering the fundamental deposit of faith. The Church has already altered the teaching in minor ways by allowing some married men into the priesthood … those who are converted clergy from other denominations, for example.

In the meantime, I do not say the Church is wrong to take the position she takes regarding celibacy as a rule. I do not substitute my “wisdom” for the wisdom of the Magisterium. If the policy of the Church regarding celibacy ever does change, it should be because the Church in its wisdom will know (better than I know) when and if the time is ripe for this policy to be altered. 👍
 
Charlemange, why do you not use the QUOTE feature? It would make your posts clearer if you did, IMO.
 
#1 =You seem to be saying that obedience (not “agreement,” but obedience = “abandoning control of your mind to someone else.” No one’s controlling your mind.

#2 - (bolded portion). An awful lot of Catholics, including an awful lot of holy Catholics, are not necesarily “in 100% agreement.” It’s just that they recognize another entity besides themselves as having the voice of moral authority.

You also make it seem that the body of moral teaching is arbitrary, and/or the work of one person. In point of fact the moral teachings derive from tradition, Sacred Scripture, and truths logically emanating from the philosophical vision of the Church (which itself derives from Scripture) – such as divine law, the concept of an ordered universe, etc. They were not capriciously arrived at.

#3 - The comparison with military obedience is not quite parallel, since military rules & orders are humanly derived, and thus have less finality to them. The Church does not require us to act illegally.
No, Elizabeth, But the Church requires we take a Position on a life issue, that I cannot agree with. And think is absolutly horrid. Ya know I love ya. 🙂
 
I may have a sense of your dilemma. I am a former Marine, and I have disobeyed an direct order, in the face of the person giving the order. The particular case was when a missile strike was ordered to be called in which would have been “danger close”. It was against procedure, though not technically illegal, for the commander to issue that order. He was incompetent, in my judgment at the moment. There was a real possibility that if I called in the strike that myself and other Marines could have been wounded or killed.

But… it was a judgment call on my part. In his eyes I had a moral obligation to obey his direct order. In my eyes I had a moral obligation to disobey his direct order. I was willing to suffer the legal consequences of that decision, if it came to that.

Personally, I am gay. Big issue around here, and with the Church, and with its relationship to society as civil rights are won. The Church had the same struggle over slavery in the 1800’s.

I was baptized as a Catholic. I have been estranged from the Church at least for much of my life in a large measure because of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality. It is difficult to reconcile one’s life to the teachings of the Church, if they ring hollow to one’s own life experience. Every gay person knows a couple of things (1) sexuality is not a choice; (2) coming to realize one’s sexuality is not much different from person to person. It feels normal and natural (in the commonly used sense, not the theological sense). So as a younger person, I had a strong opinion that the Church was simply wrong. That opinion was well and reasonably founded in my life experience, and also by the opinion of the medical community who specializes in such matters.

I failed to understand that when the Church labels something as “objectively disordered”, that the phrase is meant in the context of a theological view of what is “natural”, and not in a scientific or secular sense. That judgment is a moral teaching, not a statement of more objective fact, as a modern persons understands scientific objectivity. The Church are very careful to avoid the causative question, which seems to be lost on some Catholics. As the scientific evidence accumulates to confirm the internal experience of gay people, I imagine that the Church will be faced with an interesting dilemma. This may be my own prejudice, but I am expecting the Church to struggle with this over the coming decades as more biological evidence accrues. At present, I am willing to accept a teaching from a higher authority which is discordant to my perceived reality. As immature as I am, I am aware enough to know that my perceptions are not objective.

I don’t know if that helps to clarify your own moral dilemmas. Maybe there is something in there of use.
And your story my dear fellow Catholic, really interst me. I will be p.m. you to talk with you more. God bless you and yours. Peace 🙂 Semper Fi Marine! 👍
 
Charlemange, why do you not use the QUOTE feature? It would make your posts clearer if you did, IMO.

Gray background offends my eyes.

I am a member of the infamous West Texas “Over the Hill Gang.” 😃
 
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