2 disagreements so im not a real Catholic?

[benidict]

Charlemange, why do you not use the QUOTE feature? It would make your posts clearer if you did, IMO.

Gray background offends my eyes.

I am a member of the infamous West Texas “Over the Hill Gang.”

Post any way you want Charlemagne. you dont offend me. Im just glad your here. Happy Easter!

 

[benidict]

I stand corrected, Elizabeth. The example you gave is direct advice against Church teaching, not in the realm of discussion of issues. OK, Benidict, you’re on your own now! (Not really, of course.)

Its ok bro. Ive been there before. I happen to believe in compassion. I am not as rigid as some of my other brothers and sisters. Im sure you encounter the same mindset from the Orthodox Jews. I know you wont abandon me.

 

[benidict]

For what it’s worth, I support your freedom of individual conscience. Even though my own faith does not have an official Church teaching, we do have the Torah rules (and Talmudic tradition) which my fellow Orthodox Jews constantly remind me of by telling me that I cannot just pick and choose what I like to follow. I understand their viewpoint, but I disagree on certain things that seem “silly” or even wrong to me. Maybe not the best justification, but I can’t help it. My individual conscience and reason are stronger than what I consider blind faith. I also don’t agree with Elizabeth (friend that she is) that you are leading other Catholics astray by disagreeing with some of the Church’s teachings. Catholicism has a history of disagreement within the Church (and I’m not talking only about Protestant “heretics”), and the Church has changed some of its views throughout history. (Of course, certain positions–particularly basic dogma, such as the belief in the Trinity–have not and will not change.) Free discussion of ideas is, in my view, permissible and, more than that, a good thing for everyone. If Catholics are so easily persuaded by a single opinion on a Forum, they couldn’t have been very decisive in their faith to begin with. The purpose of this Forum is to discuss a variety of opinions on all kinds of issues, so that one may be exposed to different points of view and perhaps make a decision accordingly, or at least be informed of different perspectives. Otherwise, we are all just preaching to the choir and validating what we already know. Now, for some, that may also be reassuring, and that’s fine as well.

I could be mistaken here, and any of my Catholic brothers/sisters, can correct me. St. Catherine of Sienna. I guess she just should have sat down and shut up, instead of attempting to reform things she found wrong. She is not one ive studied in depth, so I will get back on this.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Its ok bro. Ive been there before. I happen to believe in compassion. I am not as rigid as some of my other brothers and sisters. Im sure you encounter the same mindset from the Orthodox Jews. I know you wont abandon me.

Dear friend, I believe in compassion too. I’m curious as to how you could think the Church is ‘lacking compassion’ in the situations you speak of, though.

I’m also curious about the term ‘rigid’. Do you mean "100% faithfulness to the teachings of Christ and His Church’ makes me ‘rigid’ and somehow this is less pleasing to Him than if I were NOT 100% faithful? That doesn’t seem right. . .

 

[benidict]

Dear friend, I believe in compassion too. I’m curious as to how you could think the Church is ‘lacking compassion’ in the situations you speak of, though.

I’m also curious about the term ‘rigid’. Do you mean "100% faithfulness to the teachings of Christ and His Church’ makes me ‘rigid’ and somehow this is less pleasing to Him than if I were NOT 100% faithful? That doesn’t seem right. . .

The pharisees followed the letter of the law perfectly. 100 percent compliance with the law of Moses. Jesus even said for his followers to do everthing the pharisees taught. However they forgot two very important things. Mercy and Compassion. I believe we have pharisees in the Catholic Church today. So rigid they are like the pharisee crying out in the square, I thank you God you did not make me like that Homosexual over there! Thank you I was not made like that Horrible woman who made a heartbreaking choice over there! Also, If you were fully in compliance you wouldnt need confession, Correct?

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

I’m of the position you can privately disagree with Church teachings and still remain a faithful Catholic. Struggling with some aspects of Church teachings is something that many can relate to on this board and in our local churches. However, dissent is not an acceptable practice, which encompasses outward written and verbal discord of Church teachings, in both matters of discipline and doctrine.

Solidarity with the Church is a paramount obligation of devoted Catholics. Ultimately, we are to submit to the authority of the Church in matters of moral teachings when the matter has been explicitly addressed. The Church’s deposits of faith, millennia of tradition and theological expertise on divine revelation undoubtedly trump our limited and incomplete personal interpretation of sacred doctrine.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

St. Catherine is a doctor of the Church, I believe. . .so obviously the Church found her life one of ‘heroic virtue’ and her actions laudable.

Oh dear. I sure hope that one of the big two is not ‘women’s ordination’. . .Sigh. I’m a woman and I have NO problem with that whatsoever and I don’t think I’m being ‘denied’ or that the Church isn’t considering my multitude of gifts and my incredible greatness and just being stupid, patriarchical, and sexist by ‘denying me’ the priesthood.

(Check my sig. I’ve had it for years. The Church HAS NO AUTHORITY to ordain women. Just as it has no authority to confect beer and pretzels as Eucharist instead of wine and bread. And as food, I much prefer beer and pretzels to wine and unleavened bread, thank you muchly, so I’m not supporting the Church’s position because I think their ‘food’ is ‘better’ as intrinsic food! I think women have a lot of superior gifts and strengths over men in many areas but that doesn’t mean I think women ‘should’ be priests. And I don’t think this is an issue where it’s something “The Church’ dreamed up and where 'God” just couldn’t be heard due to the 2000 years of repressive nasty men being all greedy for ‘power’ either. Priesthood is not about power. )

 

[benidict]

St. Catherine is a doctor of the Church, I believe. . .so obviously the Church found her life one of ‘heroic virtue’ and her actions laudable.

Oh dear. I sure hope that one of the big two is not ‘women’s ordination’. . .Sigh. I’m a woman and I have NO problem with that whatsoever and I don’t think I’m being ‘denied’ or that the Church isn’t considering my multitude of gifts and my incredible greatness and just being stupid, patriarchical, and sexist by ‘denying me’ the priesthood.

(Check my sig. I’ve had it for years. The Church HAS NO AUTHORITY to ordain women. Just as it has no authority to confect beer and pretzels as Eucharist instead of wine and bread. And as food, I much prefer beer and pretzels to wine and unleavened bread, thank you muchly, so I’m not supporting the Church’s position because I think their ‘food’ is ‘better’ as intrinsic food! I think women have a lot of superior gifts and strengths over men in many areas but that doesn’t mean I think women ‘should’ be priests. And I don’t think this is an issue where it’s something “The Church’ dreamed up and where 'God” just couldn’t be heard due to the 2000 years of repressive nasty men being all greedy for ‘power’ either. Priesthood is not about power. )

LOL! nope. not womens ordination. Im in compliance with this. Priestesses are for the pagan faiths. not ours. I love women though, and It is a womens issue.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

When I hear people in CAF decrying folks as “Cafeteria Catholics” while they exalt themselves for perfectly following the Catholic lifestyle, I smell Pharisees. I read that stuff day in day out in here. It’s unhealthy to constantly feel the need to measure up to someone and feel people are “below” you not living up to the rules. There is so much judgemental stuff in here some days, it’s very Pharisaic. Some obsess about the lack of full Catholic obedience in some that it makes me wonder…

The pharisees followed the letter of the law perfectly. 100 percent compliance with the law of Moses. Jesus even said for his followers to do everthing the pharisees taught. However they forgot two very important things. Mercy and Compassion. I believe we have pharisees in the Catholic Church today. So rigid they are like the pharisee crying out in the square, I thank you God you did not make me like that Homosexual over there! Thank you I was not made like that Horrible woman who made a heartbreaking choice over there! Also, If you were fully in compliance you wouldnt need confession, Correct?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The pharisees followed the letter of the law perfectly. 100 percent compliance with the law of Moses. Jesus even said for his followers to do everthing the pharisees taught. However they forgot two very important things. Mercy and Compassion. I believe we have pharisees in the Catholic Church today. So rigid they are like the pharisee crying out in the square, I thank you God you did not make me like that Homosexual over there! Thank you I was not made like that Horrible woman who made a heartbreaking choice over there! Also, If you were fully in compliance you wouldnt need confession, Correct?

Actually having just been this week right now I don’t, praise God. Doesn’t mean I don’t or can’t sin though. You can be 100% faithful to the teaching of the Church and yet still stumble in a temptation, be sorry for your sin, repent, confess, and keep on trying. . .right?

Surely you aren’t trying to say that I can’t be 100% faithful in acknowledging the truth of God’s teachings while still having difficulties in trying to follow Him day to day?

 

[benidict]

When I hear people in CAF decrying folks as “Cafeteria Catholics” while they exalt themselves for perfectly following the Catholic lifestyle, I smell Pharisees. I read that stuff day in day out in here. It’s unhealthy to constantly feel the need to measure up to someone and feel people are “below” you not living up to the rules. There is so much judgemental stuff in here some days, it’s very Pharisaic. Some obsess about the lack of full Catholic obedience in some that it makes me wonder…

Thank you soooo much! You get where I am coming from. thank God! :hug1:

 

[Tantum_ergo]

When I hear people in CAF decrying folks as “Cafeteria Catholics” while they exalt themselves for perfectly following the Catholic lifestyle, I smell Pharisees. I read that stuff day in day out in here. It’s unhealthy to constantly feel the need to measure up to someone and feel people are “below” you not living up to the rules. There is so much judgemental stuff in here some days, it’s very Pharisaic. Some obsess about the lack of full Catholic obedience in some that it makes me wonder…

Um, . . .here’s the thing, Gurney.

"Decry’ and ‘exalt’ are such dang loaded words.

And a person who acknowledges 100% BELIEF in Catholic teachings isn’t necessary exalting himself or herself while being all ‘Pharistical’ over others.

What am I supposed to do, LIE?

Say, "Gosh, I don’t believe the WHOLE thing the Church teaches and I think anybody who does follow the whole thing or claims to is just a. . .um, what is that, oh yeah,

JUST A PHARISEE TRYING TO EXALT HIMSELF."

Yeah. That’s it.

Even if I really truly believe the whole thing (Hook Line and Sinker Club, anybody else remember?), rather than be called a Pharisee, told I’m being ‘mean and judgmental’, etc., I should just LIE and say I don’t accept it.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Sometimes a plain, ordinary woman who has had her share and then some of being sinful, but who is just TRYING TO FOLLOW JESUS and do WHAT HE ASKS. . .

has to just keep on trying even when her words get turned upside down and inside out and she’s made to look like the arch sinner and high priestess of Pharisees for saying she BELIEVES 100% in Him.

 

[benidict]

We can even read where Peter had some serious issues. When Jesus was re instating him, and asked if he loved him, he asked 3 times. he used 3 terms for the word love. Peter admited he could not love Christ the way Christ desired. He could only manage the love of friendship. Its been a long time since ive heard the whole teaching, so I will get back to yall on this. More was going on in this passage than meets the eye.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t want to edit out my post above because I think the point is valid. . .if you believe in something you believe, even if people mistakenly assume wrong things about you if you stand up for your belief. . .

But then again, it is getting late and so close now to the glorious, glorious Easter Day and I’d much rather my last post of the night reflected that.

He is Risen and He died for all of us.

You, me, everyone. He loves all of us. And if He loves us all, how can I not love you all as well, as He does?

God bless all and Happy Easter!

 

[benidict]

I don’t want to edit out my post above because I think the point is valid. . .if you believe in something you believe, even if people mistakenly assume wrong things about you if you stand up for your belief. . .

But then again, it is getting late and so close now to the glorious, glorious Easter Day and I’d much rather my last post of the night reflected that.

He is Risen and He died for all of us.

You, me, everyone. He loves all of us. And if He loves us all, how can I not love you all as well, as He does?

God bless all and Happy Easter!

May you have a blessed Easter dear Sister

 

[Elizabeth502]

No, Elizabeth, But the Church requires we take a Position on a life issue, that I cannot agree with. And think is absolutly horrid. Ya know I love ya.

Well have a great Easter and pray for illumination, but be at peace. I would also discuss anything you find “absolutely horrid” with a priest. Sometimes it’s good to talk to several. It doesn’t mean that there will be a variety of opinions, but only that one of those priests might respond in a certain way that will allow you to be more reconciled. (Every priest has different ways of communicating. If you’re still overseas you might not have that option at the moment, but eventually you’ll want to do that.)
I’ll continue the conversation offline.

 

[Spirithound]

It is a womens issue.

Abortion
Tubal ligation
Being silent in church??
How many women’s issues are there?
Are you aware of the principle of double effect?

 

[Peepers]

Well have a great Easter and pray for illumination, but be at peace. I would also discuss anything you find “absolutely horrid” with a priest. Sometimes it’s good to talk to several. It doesn’t mean that there will be a variety of opinions, but only that one of those priests might respond in a certain way that will allow you to be more reconciled. (Every priest has different ways of communicating. If you’re still overseas you might not have that option at the moment, but eventually you’ll want to do that.)
I’ll continue the conversation offline.

Choose carefully when you talk to a priest. They come in many degrees of compassion and expertise, in my experience. I prefer that ones who have had secular life experience prior to taking vows. I have had particularly bad luck with the old ones who became a priest when very young. They don’t have the life experience to even understand the questions. On the other hand, there are plenty out there with great spiritual strength, knowledge and wisdom. But you need to look for them.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Choose carefully when you talk to a priest. They come in many degrees of compassion and expertise, in my experience. I prefer that ones who have had secular life experience prior to taking vows. I have had particularly bad luck with the old ones who became a priest when very young. They don’t have the life experience to even understand the questions. On the other hand, there are plenty out there with great spiritual strength, knowledge and wisdom. But you need to look for them.

Actually, priests with more experience are sometimes quite compassionate because they have been through the fires of pastoral experience and are able to see with a balanced eye, despite not having been married. They have witnessed many live biographies in their own parishes, which have taught them that life, including married life, is complex. They have themselves lived long enough to suffer and therefore to develop compassion for others. It is true that levels of empathy do vary, but with no more pattern as to age of entry into priesthood than there are patterns of empathy among non-priests.

Usually, when Catholics seek out priestly advice, they choose priests they are already somewhat acquainted with through some connection, and therefore have an idea about the priest’s listening skills, and/or have observed a sensitive ear in that priest by listening to many of his homilies, etc. Occasionally there can be the disconnect of a priest who is very warm and perceptive in his homilies (& delivery) but extraordinarily cold and non-receptive in person, but that is a great exception.

In any case, probably the OP won’t be approaching a random stranger priest to get his questions answered.

 

[estesbob]

When I hear people in CAF decrying folks as “Cafeteria Catholics” while they exalt themselves for perfectly following the Catholic lifestyle, I smell Pharisees. I read that stuff day in day out in here. Wt’s unhealthy to constantly feel the need to measure up to someone and feel people ar
e “below” you not living up to the rules. There is so much judgemental stuff in here some days, it’s very Pharisaic. Some obsess about the lack of full Catholic obedience in some that it makes me wonder…

There is a huge difference between believing in 100% of what the Church teaches and following it 100% of the time. I am used to being called a Pharisee, mainly by those who have subjugated their faith to either their political or their secular beliefs.