2 Opus Dei followers on trial in France

[OchsFam]

I understand exactly what is going on here.

The woman in question is accusing Opus Dei of forcing her to work for little or no pay, of recruiting her before she was really old enough to understand what was going on and then deliberately separating her from her family and friends to maintain control of her.

Since things like this have happened before (there are modern day sweat shops in Western nations where woman and girls work in similar conditions) and Opus Dei itself has been accused of such practices before, we have every reason to take these accusations seriously.

You appear biased in favor of Opus Dei, and are thus inclined to take everything they say at face value. I however, share no such bias.

Maybe I am biased, I am fully accepting of this. I do think there are aspects of this that you do not understand or are not willing to understand.

The article is misleading (purposefully) on one point. She did not start doing this at the age of 14 so get that thought out of your head. She originally found the way of life attractive and did not join Opus Dei until she was at least 18 which means she would have been well aware of the decision. This separation you speak of did not happen until she was 18 and again she was aware it was part of the call to be a numerary assistant. Also, she chose numerary assistant as apposed to numerary which means she again chose to live this lifestyle of labor at the center (as opposed to labor in the world outside). It did not surprise her nor did it deter her for 12 years. I cannot say what changed her mind, but it was not that Opus Dei did anything wrong, she just apparently wasn’t called to be a numerary assistant.

I know you will argue brainwashing, but that is as hard to prove as disprove. The fact remains she was well aware of her decisions and she made them consciously without coercion.

Another thing that is hard for people to grasp is that being a numerary or numerary assistant is akin to a religious order. People accept that nuns have no contact with their parent except for maybe twice a year, but when they aren’t nuns they think it is a violation of rights. The numerary or numerary assistant is called in a very similar manner to that of a nun and the calling includes separation from the family, similar to that of a nun. She knew this and made the decision as a consenting adult.

 

[OchsFam]

I have read the Bible extensively, and was left with the impression that that book could have used a good editor

On a more serious note, I would have expected a faithful Catholic to be the first to admit that there’s a significant difference between recruiting a young girl and a man old enough to understand what he’s getting into.

Moreover, the numerary assistants are essentially domestic servants (specifically of the old Victorian type). It seems like the least an organization like Opus Dei could do is treat their servants well.

Not all of the apostles were old and not all disciples were apostles, some served the Apostles. Remember that a call to Christianity is a call to service.

Women married at the age of 14 in the days of the Bible. Some traditions have Mary as a 14 year old and again, this woman did not make her decision until she was 18.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Maybe I am biased, I am fully accepting of this. I do think there are aspects of this that you do not understand or are not willing to understand.

The article is misleading (purposefully) on one point. She did not start doing this at the age of 14 so get that thought out of your head. She originally found the way of life attractive and did not join Opus Dei until she was at least 18 which means she would have been well aware of the decision. This separation you speak of did not happen until she was 18 and again she was aware it was part of the call to be a numerary assistant. Also, she chose numerary assistant as apposed to numerary which means she again chose to live this lifestyle of labor at the center (as opposed to labor in the world outside). It did not surprise her nor did it deter her for 12 years. I cannot say what changed her mind, but it was not that Opus Dei did anything wrong, she just apparently wasn’t called to be a numerary assistant.

I know you will argue brainwashing, but that is as hard to prove as disprove. The fact remains she was well aware of her decisions and she made them consciously without coercion.

Another thing that is hard for people to grasp is that being a numerary or numerary assistant is akin to a religious order. People accept that nuns have no contact with their parent except for maybe twice a year, but when they aren’t nun they think it is a violation of rights. The numerary or numerary assistant is called in a very similar manner to that of a nun and the calling includes separation from the family, similar to that of a nun. She knew this and made the decision as a consenting adult.

Opus Dei itself referred to these women (and their only women) as servants until the 1950s, here’s a link to an article that mentions it: ncronline.org/blogs/young-voices/real-scandal-opus-dei-and-church

As for you, yes you’re definitely biased. You appear unwilling to even consider the possibility that Opus Dei did anything wrong.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Not all of the apostles were old and not all disciples were apostles, some served the Apostles. Remember that a call to Christianity is a call to service.

Women married at the age of 14 in the days of the Bible. Some traditions have Mary as a 14 year old and again, this woman did not make her decision until she was 18.

So what?

The ancient Jews also decreed that a woman should be killed if she was raped in the city, had laws for (the practice of) selling your daughter into slavery, and allowed a man to have his wife put to death after the wedding if she could not prove she was a virgin.

I do not consider these practices worthy of admiration or emulation. Frankly the ancient Jews often acted as though they despised and hated their women (much like modern day Muslims in many parts of the world).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Not all of the apostles were old and not all disciples were apostles, some served the Apostles. Remember that a call to Christianity is a call to service.
Women married at the age of 14 in the days of the Bible. Some traditions have Mary as a 14 year old and again, this woman did not make her decision until she was 18.

For men at least.
The Church is usually quick to tell people these days that the call to service that the Apostles responded to doesn’t apply to women.

 

[OchsFam]

So what?

The ancient Jews also decreed that a woman should be killed if she was raped in the city, had laws for (the practice of) selling your daughter into slavery, and allowed a man to have his wife put to death after the wedding if she could not prove she was a virgin.

I do not consider these practices worthy of admiration or emulation. Frankly the ancient Jews often acted as though they despised and hated their women (much like modern day Muslims in many parts of the world).

I am just saying that young people were called to be disciples and Apostles. In emulation of Christ, you cannot expect people to change this just because people have changed their mind recently. Keeping the context of the argument to entry into service of God, 14 is not too young, that was my point. Reality is that she was 18 which is an age in which most would agree one can make a decision for themselves.

 

[OchsFam]

For men at least.
The Church is usually quick to tell people these days that the call to service that the Apostles responded to doesn’t apply to women.

To the priesthood yes, but to service, no. All are called to service, men and women alike. History shows us that women were called to serve the Church very early.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I am just saying that young people were called to be disciples and Apostles. In emulation of Christ, you cannot expect people to change this just because people have changed their mind recently. Keeping the context of the argument to entry into service of God, 14 is not too young, that was my point. Reality is that she was 18 which is an age in which most would agree one can make a decision for themselves.

I notice that you haven’t responded to the fact that Opus Dei itself called these women servants.

 

[OchsFam]

I notice that you haven’t responded to the fact that Opus Dei itself called these women servants.

Why should I? You can read their documents, and the Bible, and find reference to men as servants as well. I am a servant and one of the titles of the Pope is the servant of the servants of Christ.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

To the priesthood yes, but to service, no. All are called to service, men and women alike. History shows us that women were called to serve the Church very early.

So women are good enough for clean up (e.g. acting as a Numerary Assistant) but not good enough for conducting Mass huh

Makes me glad that I’m not a Catholic woman.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Why should I? You can read their documents, and the Bible, and find reference to men as servants as well. I am a servant and one of the titles of the Pope is the servant of the servants of Christ.

So you don’t have problem with men or women being treated as domestic slaves then?

Let me ask you a question:
Do you approve of the Irish Catholic Magdalene Laundries?
Here’s a link in case you don’t know what they are: cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/08/sunday/main567365.shtm

 

[OchsFam]

So women are good enough for clean up (e.g. acting as a Numerary Assistant) but not good enough for conducting Mass huh

Makes me glad that I’m not a Catholic woman.

So basically, you think that if women cannot do everything men can do, it isn’t fair. Well, men cannot have babies, that is unfair. I think men should be able to have babies. Kinda hard to change though, isn’t it?

Well, for the same reason men cannot have babies, women cannot be priests. I am not going into that discussion because this is not the thread for it. If you do not understand, so be it. They are tied together by natural and divine law. One of the reasons you can use to argue why women cannot be priests is because they cannot impregnate a woman. I am skipping many steps here but you can do the research on this yourself. I will not be replying to a response questioning this aspect of teaching.

Also, women have a very special place in the Church. To diminish it to a contrast between what a numerary assistant does as part of their job and the priesthood is attacking a straw man. Women bring something unique and beautiful into the Church but one thing they cannot be is men, sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[OchsFam]

So you don’t have problem with men or women being treated as domestic slaves then?

Let me ask you a question:
Do you approve of the Irish Catholic Magdalene Laundries?
Here’s a link in case you don’t know what they are: cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/08/sunday/main567365.shtm

Link is broken.

 

[OchsFam]

Opus Dei itself referred to these women (and their only women) as servants until the 1950s, here’s a link to an article that mentions it: ncronline.org/blogs/young-voices/real-scandal-opus-dei-and-church

As for you, yes you’re definitely biased. You appear unwilling to even consider the possibility that Opus Dei did anything wrong.

Just as you are unwilling to consider the possibility that she is doing something wrong right now. This is a two way street.

I am not unwilling to acknowledge that something could have been awry, but in a discussion between two parties who have entered with opposing view points, it is up to each party to defend their position. In this case, I believe she was aware and not coerced (notice her lawsuit of mental manipulation was dismissed) and of reasonable age to make said decision.

In my opinion, the most likely situation is that she became dissuaded with being an numerary assistant and someone convinced her she was taken advantage of. It does not mean she actually was taken advantage of (nor does it mean that she wasn’t), but it may be that someone misunderstood the call and role of a numerary assistant and was/is ignorant of a call to service and submission when they gave her advice. I will not argue that she is being greedy or hateful, but there is a disconnect here between what she did when she was 18 and what she is doing now.

This is all opinion, but I do have some understanding of what Opus Dei is about and what the role of a numerary assistant is. I am not a member of Opus Dei but I am also not biased against them. I am applying logic to what the story shows and combining it with my understanding of the practices of Opus Dei. I am not trying to apply a secular understanding to the situation because the secular world has never understood the work of God. The fact is that this is not a practice of Opus Dei alone but for some reason Opus Dei has been singled out.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

So basically, you think that if women cannot do everything men can do, it isn’t fair. Well, men cannot have babies, that is unfair. I think men should be able to have babies. Kinda hard to change though, isn’t it?

Well, for the same reason men cannot have babies, women cannot be priests. I am not going into that discussion because this is not the thread for it. If you do not understand, so be it. They are tied together by natural and divine law. One of the reasons you can use to argue why women cannot be priests is because they cannot impregnate a woman. I am skipping many steps here but you can do the research on this yourself. I will not be replying to a response questioning this aspect of teaching.

Also, women have a very special place in the Church. To diminish it to a contrast between what a numerary assistant does as part of their job and the priesthood is attacking a straw man. Women bring something unique and beautiful into the Church but one thing they cannot be is men, sorry to burst your bubble.

Oh yes, they do indeed have a special place in the Church.

From what I understand no woman (including nuns) is a member of the Church hierarchy.
No woman CAN be a member of the hieararchy, although they are still expected to obey it like everyone else.

That really says it all doesn’t it

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Link is broken.

That’s odd.

Well, here’s another news article on the subject: grailwerk.com/docs/nytimes15.htm

And the wiki page for some basic information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

So do you approve of the Magdalene Laundries or not?

If Opus Dei is doing something similar, do you think that they should be left to their own devices?

 

[seekerz]

This is one which I’d rather see play out in full detail in the courts: on the one hand, if she knowingly (and voluntarily) signed up for this then she has no case; on the other hand, the allegations of signing checks and not actually receiving money are troubling to me - unless they are operating under similar rules as religious orders.

I would certainly need to see evidence of a decision-making process that included ample time to rethink and consider if this was her true vocation. All the religious I know personally went through this process, in different settings that included their home communities and religious community, before final commitment.

My Church doesn’t have to be always right in the details of every individual’s (or group’s) behavior for it to have my full allegiance. Sort of the way I don’t have to be perfect (or even close) to be always and forever, God’s child…

 

[OchsFam]

That’s odd.

Well, here’s another news article on the subject: grailwerk.com/docs/nytimes15.htm

And the wiki page for some basic information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

So do you approve of the Magdalene Laundries or not?

If Opus Dei is doing something similar, do you think that they should be left to their own devices?

Before I respond, I will play Devil’s advocate here even though I do not necessarily agree with this Magdalene Laundries given the information provided.

First, I don’t know enough information, but from what I can gather, they probably started with good intentions of rehabilitation and went south from there. Clearly, the way they finished was not appropriate from what I can see but again, I do not have enough information.

Second, and this is a general comment, not a justification of this practice, there are always two sides to a story. Sometimes both sides point to the same problem, which may be the case here, but often times one side is biased. Linking a news article is worthless since there does not seem to be any unbiased newspapers, New York Times is one of the worst at being biased, particularly against religion. In the context of your links, the article focuses on their practices of the 20th century and does not consider that it may have one time been a good thing even if I cannot understand how.

Third, and again this is a general comment, we often try to apply our moral standards to history to judge their actions. This does not necessarily apply to the Opus Dei story, but it does apply to this laundry shop. Obviously, everyone at the time thought this was a good idea and maybe originally it was fruitful in rehabilitation. The reasoning behind the organization is really what needs to be considered. Maybe in the 18th century, people actually cared about their daughters enough to try and prevent them from fornicating and everything else they tried did not work (for all I know, the laundry shop was a last resort). Today, we don’t see sex before marriage as a problem so it seem repulsive to send our daughters away for this reason. I honestly cannot believe this would be necessary to prevent your daughter from fornicating and I am not sure if manual labor would be the best solution, but then again there are details missing which is why I cannot address the practice as a whole. What I can say is that it certainly does seem to be shady.

Finally, there is a distinct difference between the laundry shop and the situation in this thread regarding Opus Dei. Namely that the girls had no choice in one situation and were often too young to have been able to choose even if allowed a choice. In the Opus Dei situation, the girl was well within an appropriate age to choose this lifestyle.

If Opus Dei were doing something similar to what is being put forward in this article and there was no denial, then something would need to be done. The fact is that they are not doing something similar to this so it is a moot point.

 

[OchsFam]

This is one which I’d rather see play out in full detail in the courts: on the one hand, if she knowingly (and voluntarily) signed up for this then she has no case; on the other hand, the allegations of signing checks and not actually receiving money are troubling to me - unless they are operating under similar rules as religious orders.

I would certainly need to see evidence of a decision-making process that included ample time to rethink and consider if this was her true vocation. All the religious I know personally went through this process, in different settings that included their home communities and religious community, before final commitment.

My Church doesn’t have to be always right in the details of every individual’s (or group’s) behavior for it to have my full allegiance. Sort of the way I don’t have to be perfect (or even close) to be always and forever, God’s child…

To provide some details, a numerary assistant would be handled in the same way as a religious order in terms of pay. To put it in another way (albeit not really accurate from a spiritual point of view), a numerary (and numerary assistant) is a nun (or monk) of Opus Dei. The vocation is very similar though obviously the methods are different. For example, a numerary or assistant is called to a life of prayer through work while a nun may be called to prayer as work.

Also, the process to becoming a member of Opus Dei (numerary, supernumerary, numerary assistant, etc.) requires at least 18 months of study and discernment before you can officially become a member. They do not take anyone as a member until they are 18 though you can start the process at 16 and a half. These processes are well documented and from what the story tells us, they were followed but of course the story just says “she gradually chose to follow Opus Dei’s spiritual path and began working.” This gradual process took at least 18 months and serious discernment didn’t start until she was 16 and a half. You can read the book by John Allen Jr. for more information.

Here is a link to what is publicly available regarding a vocation to Opus Dei.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Before I respond, I will play Devil’s advocate here even though I do not necessarily agree with this Magdalene Laundries given the information provided.

First, I don’t know enough information, but from what I can gather, they probably started with good intentions of rehabilitation and went south from there. Clearly, the way they finished was not appropriate from what I can see but again, I do not have enough information.

Second, and this is a general comment, not a justification of this practice, there are always two sides to a story. Sometimes both sides point to the same problem, which may be the case here, but often times one side is biased. Linking a news article is worthless since there does not seem to be any unbiased newspapers, New York Times is one of the worst at being biased, particularly against religion. In the context of your links, the article focuses on their practices of the 20th century and does not consider that it may have one time been a good thing even if I cannot understand how.

Third, and again this is a general comment, we often try to apply our moral standards to history to judge their actions. This does not necessarily apply to the Opus Dei story, but it does apply to this laundry shop. Obviously, everyone at the time thought this was a good idea and maybe originally it was fruitful in rehabilitation. The reasoning behind the organization is really what needs to be considered. Maybe in the 18th century, people actually cared about their daughters enough to try and prevent them from fornicating and everything else they tried did not work (for all I know, the laundry shop was a last resort). Today, we don’t see sex before marriage as a problem so it seem repulsive to send our daughters away for this reason. I honestly cannot believe this would be necessary to prevent your daughter from fornicating and I am not sure if manual labor would be the best solution, but then again there are details missing which is why I cannot address the practice as a whole. What I can say is that it certainly does seem to be shady.

Finally, there is a distinct difference between the laundry shop and the situation in this thread regarding Opus Dei. Namely that the girls had no choice in one situation and were often too young to have been able to choose even if allowed a choice. In the Opus Dei situation, the girl was well within an appropriate age to choose this lifestyle.

If Opus Dei were doing something similar to what is being put forward in this article and there was no denial, then something would need to be done. The fact is that they are not doing something similar to this so it is a moot point.

The Magdalene scandal has been covered by numerous news organizations now, and even the Church seems unwilling to defend their practices at this point. I could link to many other news sources of course, but if you refuse to listen to any viewpoints except for those that support what you already think it would be pointless.

From what I have read the Magdalene Laundries were originally places where lower class women with nowhere else to go could turn to for shelter (similar to the shelters for battered women we have today). Former prostitutes, servants impregnated by their masters, rape victimes, and other social outcasts could go to these centers for a hot meal and some place safe to stay. Over time the Magdalene Laundries morphed into a place to send women considered desirables by the Church and Irish society (such as unwed mothers, rape victims, women who were considered too flirty, etc.). At that point the focus of the Laundries was exploiting the labor of these women and girls and making sure that they were removed from Irish society.