#2 Questions Protestants Can't Answer

[rogue13]

I was worried that it was just me. I get his e-letters, and it seems to me that he manages to put a three-word answer into about nine and a half paragraphs. Has anyone ever read to the end of one of those things? (Or am I the only one who gives up about half way through? )

Your words remind me of one of my favorite quotes:

“It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

Teddy Roosevelt

 

[jmcrae]

Your words remind me of one of my favorite quotes:

“It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

Teddy Roosevelt

You sayin’ I don’t carry my share of the load? :ehh:

 

[BrianH]

24000 posts…not too shabby in defending Catholic beliefs.
Listen, I asked a question and none of the people who are fans of this site have addressed it yet and I request they do please:shrug:

 

[jmcrae]

24000 posts…not too shabby in defending Catholic beliefs.
Listen, I asked a question and none of the people who are fans of this site have addressed it yet and I request they do please:shrug:

The Methodist understanding and the Catholic understanding on this issue are so similar that I don’t think there are even any semantics to consider - I think it’s a pointless debate, myself.

 

[Roy5]

Just a general comment, which I hope is not too much off topic.

I am a Christian who isn’t into denominationalism, or even dogmatic theology for that matter. My heritage is both Catholic (paternal line) and Protestant (maternal). My view of the religious world, certainly among people I know, is very different from what I usually read here on CAF.

It's my experience that most of my Catholic and Protestant friends don't care all that much about the finer points of theology. They look to their faith for strength to face the daily challenges of life. They often view their church as an extended family, where they have friends and feel comfortable, a home away from home. They believe in a real but generalized way. God. Jesus. Morality. Hope, Faith, Love. Maybe most of them don't know all that much about the distinctive dogmae of their particular churches - and they don't particularly care. 

 When it comes to, say, the Immaculate Conception, many Catholics (and Protestants, too, of course) confuse it with the Virgin Birth. (Many in both groups even have doubts about the Virgin Birth.) Transubstantiation? Most Catholics I know don't accept it as some sort of re-creation of the crucifixion. Representation, yes, but they do not believe that words by a priest actually propel a substantive change in the bread and wine. As for Protestants, they generally view both faith and works as important - just that Luther and Calvin rebelled against the popular medieval notion that certain prayers or other rituals stacked up 'brownie points' that got the believer closer to heaven. Etc.  

  There are hardcore Christians who make a lot out of the finer points of doctrine, but they are a small minority - fortunately. I just finished a book on the ancient church councils and all the competing factions, all the dirty politics involved, and what a mess. 

  Frankly, when I consider this vast universe, with maybe a billion stars - or even a billion solar system - most theological disputes, whether about predestination or the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, seem trivial. We live in such a marvelous, mammoth, majestic, miraculous and mysterious world that I am in constant awe, but also ready to confess both a deep skepticism about the details of theology and a deep and abiding faith in our amazing Creator God. I understand God through the example, teachings, and sacrifice of Christ, but am not sure that I am more favored in the eyes of the Almighty than faithful and compassionate Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and those of other faiths.

   Some years ago it was my privilege to spend awhile with an inspiring  Hindu family in India. I decided then that if God doesn't find a place in heaven for them - well, my chances are pretty slim. 

   Let's make religion a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[marty30]

I am not sure what exactly we believe differently than you guys on this. I posted a link to the Methodist website on sanctification and someone smarter than I will point out how it is different.
gbgm-umc.org/interrelig/justificationworld_methodist_council_and_the_jddj.pdf

I will spend more time reading this document and get back to you. I do already see the major difference in what you, Wesley and the methodist believe. According to par. 4.3 you guys believe you are saved and or justified by faith alone. We Catholics believe what St. James said, that we are not save by faith alone. The Catholic church teaches that it is through faith and works that we are saved. Thats what James Said. Thats what Peter said. Thats what Jesus said. None of them said that you are saved by faith alone.

Read the parrable of the good samaritan. Jesus did not tell the lawyer to just have faith and you will receive eternal life. He said to love God with your whole heart, mind, body and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself and you will receive eternal life.

 

[marty30]

I don’t consider it a moving target at all:

A) Salvation is via faith alone
B) Faith without works is dead…yes, because one with faith will, without a doubt, do good works
C) One cannot do good works without faith. One can do beneficial works, but they are not by definition “good.”
D) In an extreme example, let’s say someone with the most extreme for of paralysis “locked in syndrome” is in a hospital bed. Is this person penalized by God for not being able to go out and do good works? I think not. What saves this person. Faith alone.

Not so. The Catholic church teaches loudly and boldly that a person in this case whom is sincere in his heart to desire Christ and have Christ in his life will be saved. Lets take this example a little further. Lets say this guy in his bed accepted Jesus Christ as his savior and then was miraculously healed. As St. Paul said, it would be expected that he would need to work out his salvation with fear and trembling. Or even what Christ said many times in every which way, “keep my Fathers commandments”.

Point is, exceptions don’t somehow invalidate the norm and become the norm. They are exceptions.

 

[inocente]

1 Cor 13:3 says that works without love gets me nowhere, and James 2:14 says that faith without works won’t work either, the logic being provided by the chapters surrounding the verses.

My take, admittedly simplistic even for a Protestant, is that Paul and James deepen our understanding of what is already implicit in the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37) - if you love God then you automatically do good works, you can’t help but have compassion on your neighbor.

The strange thing is that James sums up all of that in the very next two verses after the one quoted by Martignoni.

 

[MBS1]

Just a question based on what I have read here. Twice it has been posted that if you have faith or love God, you will automatically do good works. Where is that in scripture? If that is so, why would James compare faith and works to a body and soul (James 2:26). Is a body not truly a body if it has no soul? Conversely, is faith not truly faith if it has no works? If a body is real, then the faith is real - or this analogy of James does not make sense at all. the analogy shows you can have faith but not automatically do good works. Anyway, with all the warnings in scripture about falling away from faith (Jesus warning in John 15 and Paul’s in Rom 11 come to mind), if someone is going to “automatically” do good works if he has faith, how can they fall away from the faith (and Jesus and Paul were addressing true believers in John 15 and Rom 11, esp. 11:22 - not people on the fence)?

 

[Lycorth]

Not so. The Catholic church teaches loudly and boldly that a person in this case whom is sincere in his heart to desire Christ and have Christ in his life will be saved. Lets take this example a little further. Lets say this guy in his bed accepted Jesus Christ as his savior and then was miraculously healed. As St. Paul said, it would be expected that he would need to work out his salvation with fear and trembling. Or even what Christ said many times in every which way, “keep my Fathers commandments”.

Point is, exceptions don’t somehow invalidate the norm and become the norm. They are exceptions.

Amen. There are always exceptions, like a man on his deathbed who accepts Christ and confesses his sins in faith - he didn’t do any good works in Christ’s name and with faith in Christ as his motivation, but he still goes to Heaven. But that’s an exception, and exceptions to a given rule usually prove the rule rather than invalidate it because of the fact that they are exceptions.

Sola fide is a man-made, un-biblical, and historically non-Christian teaching.

 

[inocente]

Just a question based on what I have read here. Twice it has been posted that if you have faith or love God, you will automatically do good works. Where is that in scripture?

(Speaking for me) It’s not that you’re on auto-pilot, but that you can’t help yourself from feeling compassion. Faith without love is dry, meaningless and harmful. Jesus gets really mad with these folk:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Mat 23:15 NIV

People can do good works not through love but because they want to boast to their friends, or are trying to trick God into awarding them a place in Heaven. They are the folk that will give a beggar money without stopping to check whether he is an alcoholic who might drink himself to death with booze bought by their gift. The Good Samaritan would have gone the extra mile (I’m punning the Bible because Spain won last night :extrahappy: ).

James and Paul have only got words, but ultimately words aren’t enough. This may be pushing Paul a little, but:

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

Rom 8:26 NIV

 

[MBS1]

Inocente - you still haven’t shown where one will automatically do good works if you have faith. James 2 indicates that good works do not automatically flow from faith - now matter how much we want it to. Even your comment -

“Faith without love is dry, meaningless and harmful.” - supports the Catholic interpretation of James, and supports the notion of not being saved by faith alone. This faith without love you mention - that is what James is getting at, no? Yet, with his analogy of faith and works to a body and soul would not this still be real faith, just as a body is still real even without a soul?

Of course Jesus would be mad at these folks. That’s the point. What would Jesus have to be mad at if good works are automatically going to follow faith? I can’t find in scripture where it says good works “automatically” flow from faith - but I find many warnings in scripture about the consequenses of not having good works. Why is that? Just look at what Jesus said about the sheep and the goats. I once heard it said “you may be saved by “faith alone”, but you are judged for all eternity by what you do with the faith” - obviously a reference to the need for faith + works to be saved. In fact, if you look at all the areas of scripture that talk about final judgement, while faith is a given, it is by your works that you are judged. Faith is never enough.

As someone said, the Catholic position can be summed up with the idea of “faith working thru love” as scripture says. In fact - isn’t even having faith a good work itself? What Jesus says in John 6:29 seems to indicate this. So the person who has a deathbed conversion has already done at least one good work according to scripture.

So again for all the bible alone folk - where does it say good works “automatically” (or words to that effect) flow from faith as has been mentioned here? Thanks.

 

[marty30]

Just a general comment, which I hope is not too much off topic.

I am a Christian who isn’t into denominationalism, or even dogmatic theology for that matter. My heritage is both Catholic (paternal line) and Protestant (maternal). My view of the religious world, certainly among people I know, is very different from what I usually read here on CAF.

It's my experience that most of my Catholic and Protestant friends don't care all that much about the finer points of theology. They look to their faith for strength to face the daily challenges of life. They often view their church as an extended family, where they have friends and feel comfortable, a home away from home. They believe in a real but generalized way. God. Jesus. Morality. Hope, Faith, Love. Maybe most of them don't know all that much about the distinctive dogmae of their particular churches - and they don't particularly care. 

 When it comes to, say, the Immaculate Conception, many Catholics (and Protestants, too, of course) confuse it with the Virgin Birth. (Many in both groups even have doubts about the Virgin Birth.) Transubstantiation? Most Catholics I know don't accept it as some sort of re-creation of the crucifixion. Representation, yes, but they do not believe that words by a priest actually propel a substantive change in the bread and wine. As for Protestants, they generally view both faith and works as important - just that Luther and Calvin rebelled against the popular medieval notion that certain prayers or other rituals stacked up 'brownie points' that got the believer closer to heaven. Etc.  

  There are hardcore Christians who make a lot out of the finer points of doctrine, but they are a small minority - fortunately. I just finished a book on the ancient church councils and all the competing factions, all the dirty politics involved, and what a mess. 

  Frankly, when I consider this vast universe, with maybe a billion stars - or even a billion solar system - most theological disputes, whether about predestination or the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, seem trivial. We live in such a marvelous, mammoth, majestic, miraculous and mysterious world that I am in constant awe, but also ready to confess both a deep skepticism about the details of theology and a deep and abiding faith in our amazing Creator God. I understand God through the example, teachings, and sacrifice of Christ, but am not sure that I am more favored in the eyes of the Almighty than faithful and compassionate Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and those of other faiths.

   Some years ago it was my privilege to spend awhile with an inspiring  Hindu family in India. I decided then that if God doesn't find a place in heaven for them - well, my chances are pretty slim. 

   Let's make religion a bridge and not a barrier.

No offense, but I don’t think you understand What Jesus said or did. You also don’t understand the truths of the Catholic Church. Jesus commanded us to do certain things. One of those things was to listen to the Church. Ignorance and misconceptions may cause most of your skeptism. Some of it may be that you don’t like authority. A good work would be to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It has an index.

If a catholic says he doesn’t believe in transubstantiation he is in heresy. The Catholic Church does not teach that God favors Catholics- Christians more than Hindus or Buddist or even muslims. If you took the time to read the Catechism on these issues or topics you just may have a different understanding.

Would you agree, that if you have faith in Christ than you would do everthing he asks you to do, including listen to His Church? God bless you. I pray you find the truth. God doesn’t want lukewarm Christians. He wants hot, on fire for Him and His Church Christians ready to lay down their lives for the same truths the martrys died for in the first centuries. We owe to them to listen, learn, defend and teach the truth so that our children will come to know God and His Church. Peace.

 

[inocente]

Inocente - you still haven’t shown where one will automatically do good works if you have faith.

In the video, Martignoni’s only argument seems to be that any stance taken by Catholics is then somehow magically not available to other Christians. Perhaps I’m a naughty Baptist, but you and I seem to agree on almost everything we’re posted so far.

The only thing I’m not sure about is where you’re going with the word “automatically”. No, I certainly don’t have an automaton in my head that forces me into good works. What I said was “It’s not that you’re on auto-pilot, but that you can’t help yourself from feeling compassion”.

Perhaps that’s lame, but I don’t know another way to put it - the Spirit is the Spirit, and if He ain’t broke don’t fix Him. My theology, if I dare call it that, is summed up by my sig.

 

[marty30]

In the video, Martignoni’s only argument seems to be that any stance taken by Catholics is then somehow magically not available to other Christians. Perhaps I’m a naughty Baptist, but you and I seem to agree on almost everything we’re posted so far.

The only thing I’m not sure about is where you’re going with the word “automatically”. No, I certainly don’t have an automaton in my head that forces me into good works. What I said was “It’s not that you’re on auto-pilot, but that you can’t help yourself from feeling compassion”.

Perhaps that’s lame, but I don’t know another way to put it - the Spirit is the Spirit, and if He ain’t broke don’t fix Him. My theology, if I dare call it that, is summed up by my sig.

You said you can’t help yourself from feeling compassion? Does that mean you have no control of yourself or do you freely chose to have compassion and do something about it? Also just feeling compassion is not really doing anything. I could feel compassion for the poor and sick but if I don’t do anything to help them when the opportunity is before me my compassion amounts to nothing.

Also, where does your theology come from? It’s not from James, Peter, John, or even Jesus.

 

[inocente]

Like I said, no automaton. If we see someone that needs help, we try to help them.

Also, where does your theology come from? It’s not from James, Peter, John, or even Jesus.

Of course it is, who are you to judge me?

As if. You can’t goad me into being a Catholic with insults.

 

[inkaneer]

I will spend more time reading this document and get back to you. I do already see the major difference in what you, Wesley and the methodist believe. According to par. 4.3 you guys believe you are saved and or justified by faith alone. We Catholics believe what St. James said, that we are not save by faith alone. The Catholic church teaches that it is through faith and works that we are saved. Thats what James Said. Thats what Peter said. Thats what Jesus said. None of them said that you are saved by faith alone.

Read the parrable of the good samaritan. Jesus did not tell the lawyer to just have faith and you will receive eternal life. He said to love God with your whole heart, mind, body and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself and you will receive eternal life.

That is not correct. The Church teaches we are saved by GRACE. Read the canons of the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent. Especially the following:

"CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

 

[marty30]

Like I said, no automaton. If we see someone that needs help, we try to help them.

Of course it is, who are you to judge me?

As if. You can’t goad me into being a Catholic with insults.

I’m not sure how I insulted you, unless pointing out the fact that your theology and that of the scriptures is different is some how insulting. Can you show me where in scripture it says if you have faith you can’t help yourself from being compassionate?

I will admit I would love to see you and our other Protestant brothers and sisters in the One Church Jesus established 2000 years ago. We could do far greater evangelizing in the world if it were not for the divisions- thirty thousand plus Protestant denominations. Just imaging what Christ Church could do if Protestants quit protesting the Catholic Church and joined Her in being disciples for Christ together receiving the sacraments Christ gave us.

 

[marty30]

That is not correct. The Church teaches we are saved by GRACE. Read the canons of the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent. Especially the following:

"CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

I never said the church doesn’t teach we are saved by grace. Amen, I believe. The Church also teaches we are saved by having faith in Christ and doing his will- works. Just read the Catechism of the Cathlic Church, par. 161:

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent Him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since without faith it is impossible to please God and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘but he who endures to the end.’

So yes we are saved by Gods grace. However we must except Gods grace through faith and endurance- works.

 

[inocente]

I’m not sure how I insulted you, unless pointing out the fact that your theology and that of the scriptures is different is some how insulting.

Correct, you say I don’t know Jesus on the basis of a couple of posts.

If, say, I joined this forum to find out whether the Catholic faith is for me, you haven’t exactly helped with your size twelve boots. Your motives may be good, but then you didn’t answer my question yet - who are you to judge me?