20 Truths about Mormons

[why_me]

And here are Emma’s last days:

**In the spring of 1879 Emma had a dream that “the prophet came and took her to a beautiful mansion. In one of the rooms was a baby. . .her child Don Carlos [who died as an infant]. She dreamed she caught the child up in her arms and wept. When she regained her composure, she asked Joseph where the rest of the children were. He assured her that if she would be patient, she would have them all.” [1]

In her old age Emma continued to grow weaker. By April all of Emma’s children found their way to the Mansion House in Nauvoo. Joseph III kept a “day-by-day account” of Emma’s declining health. During the night of April 29 Joseph III saw “his mother rise herself up and extend her left arm. ‘Joseph!’ [he] heard her say. ‘Yes, yes, I’m coming.’” Emma died at 4:20 a.m. on April 30, 1879. [2]

Her memorial service was held on Friday 2 May 1879 in Nauvoo, Illinois. Asleep in Jesus! Blessed Sleep! was amoung the hymns sung by the choir that day. Today Emma lies in Nauvoo, next to Joseph and Hyrum**

Any comments? It seems that she still believed in her first husband Joseph.

kirtlandtemple.org/hymns/funeral.htm

 

[thomasf]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news here but the mormons were driven from their homes on numerous occasions and did not receive an indian head nickel for their property. Likewise, when Brigham and the saints headed west, all property was left behind. I seriously doubt that the local townspeople purchased mormon property before the mormons left. And the mormon city of Nauvoo was destroyed.

Do you see my point?

IMO, all that means is that there’s no profit, in being a false prophet.

 

[why_me]

IMO, all that means is that there’s no profit, in being a false prophet.

And yet, is not the old testament filled with unsuccessful prophets who were rejected by the people? Nope, being a prophet can pretty darn unsuccessful.

And I did address the understanding of being in it for the money game.

 

[thomasf]

And yet, is not the old testament filled with unsuccessful prophets who were rejected by the people? Nope, being a prophet can pretty darn unsuccessful.

There’s also quite a bit about there being One God and not having false idols above that One God.

 

[majick275]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news here but the mormons were driven from their homes on numerous occasions and did not receive an indian head nickel for their property. Likewise, when Brigham and the saints headed west, all property was left behind. I seriously doubt that the local townspeople purchased mormon property before the mormons left. And the mormon city of Nauvoo was destroyed.

Do you see my point?

no i don’t. Emma had significant property acquired during her marriage to Joseph Smith. that property came from his position as “prophet”. Brigham Young and company did NOT Nauvoo penniless either. while they did leave a lot behind they also took sufficient funds west to build a new “country” and they were still receiving new converts with their funds. the LDS church generated significant incomes for many. Nauvoo was a period of prosperity for JS. that money came form members. BY made a fortune in Utah from the members. Today the LDS church is a big business. The LDS who chose not to follow brigham young kept their property and got some good deals on what the others left as well. Have you read any of Brigham Youngs talks in the JoD?

In any case it is undeniable fact that many people in the early LDS church had significant financial incentive to claim the BoM true.

 

[why_me]

no i don’t. Emma had significant property acquired during her marriage to Joseph Smith. that property came from his position as “prophet”. Brigham Young and company did NOT Nauvoo penniless either. while they did leave a lot behind they also took sufficient funds west to build a new “country” and they were still receiving new converts with their funds.

Please read the history of the mormon pioneers heading to Utah and then get back to me. Most made the journey in handcarts and many died along the way. I am sorry to break your bubble, but many left all their possessions behind and headed out west.

When they arrived in Utah, many faced hardships and money problems. The crops failed and failed again. Prosperity came out of faithfulness to god who blessed the saints.

 

[christianley]

Please read the history of the mormon pioneers heading to Utah and then get back to me. Most made the journey in handcarts and many died along the way. I am sorry to break your bubble, but many left all their possessions behind and headed out west.

When they arrived in Utah, many faced hardships and money problems. The crops failed and failed again. Prosperity came out of faithfulness to god who blessed the saints.

Prosperity for Brigham Young came off of the Saints. His decision to have people come to Utah on handcarts and the uninspired decision to leave Iowa way too late cost many people their lives. And poor Parley P. Pratt who was doing pretty well in Utah until he converted an Arkansas woman and convinced her to become his plural wife. Unfortunately, the poor lady’s husband didn’t like it very well and killed old Parley. I love Utah pioneer history. Here’s the story:

shareyourstate.com/arkansas/prattmemory.htm

Next thing you know the Mormons were avenging Parley’s blood by killing a lot of people at Mountain Meadows. The new movie coming out about it might be pretty interesting though I won’t go see it because to tell the story they had to rate it R:

septemberdawn.net/

I agree that Mormon pioneer history is pretty interesting.

 

[isaac.madsen]

Please read the history of the mormon pioneers heading to Utah and then get back to me. Most made the journey in handcarts and many died along the way. I am sorry to break your bubble, but many left all their possessions behind and headed out west.

When they arrived in Utah, many faced hardships and money problems. The crops failed and failed again. Prosperity came out of faithfulness to god who blessed the saints.

Actually, prosperity came from the gold rush - both in Mormons who went to California (beginning with the Mormon batallion), and with the many traveling through Utah to get to Oregon and California. Salt Lake became a big market for trade and tourism. Eventually the Mormon territory of Utah joined the rest of the states and gave up polygamy “in a divine revelation” in order to be seen as less of a threat. The current Mormon view is that God ordains polygamy when “building up his kingdom” - in other words, God starts religions as baby-pumping factories. I’d be interested in hearing what Christ said on the subject.

 

[Eden]

If you read these words correctly it seems to me that this man has a axe to grind. And it is only an opinion. Also, the website that you quoted from is designed to cast doubt in members minds. As on this forum, many people had negative speculations about the book of mormon during JS’s time. Times have not changed, have they?

Interestingly, no one gained from the book of mormon. Joseph was murdered as was his brother, Mobs tarred and feathered him, and two of his little children died from the after experience. The witnesses to the book of mormon gained nothing also. Thus, this bitter old man who wrote this could not adjust himself to Emma becoming a Mormon.

It is only an opinion, but it’s an opinion of a man who was a personal witness to the integrity and character of Joseph Smith, Jr. Why was JS involved in money-digging and peep stones? Clearly, he was looking for get-rich-quick and con man schemes. And why was there a deposition involving JS’s use of the same peep stone for treasure hunting in 1826 that he later was documented as having used to write the Book of Mormon several years later?

 

[Eden]

She did. She claimed the book of mormon to be a work of god to her husband whom she married after Joseph was murdered.

JS had what is called a “charismatic personality”. His sermons were entertaining and injected with humor, in stark contrast to the “fire and brimstone” sermons of the Protestant movements in upstate New York at that time.

And about the book, the book went on sale on March 25, 1830 in Palmyra, New York. If JS had not hoped to make money off the book, why did it go on sale? Why would he not have been giving this miraculous work away for free?

Prior to the Book of Mormon project, in 1826, JS was found guilty of charges brought against him of “disorderly conduct” and being an “imposter”.

For six months in 1830, after the publication of his book, JS went around preaching, but his wife had held out all that time and had not converted. She refused to convert for six months, despite the fact that she was JS’s secretary, helping him “translate” the golden plates. Why is that? After refusing for six months to become Mormon, Emma finally bowed to the pressure put on her by JS and became a Mormon.

Supplemented by the sale of his book, JS made money by convincing his followers to tithe one-tenth of their incomes to his church.

These things are documented facts:

lds-mormon.com/jsmith.shtml

Joseph Smith is included in this book, Charismatic Cult Leaders, alongside David Koresh*,* Jim Jones and L. Ron Hubbard, to name a few :

oliverpress.com/pages/cl.html

 

[majick275]

Please read the history of the mormon pioneers heading to Utah and then get back to me. Most made the journey in handcarts and many died along the way. I am sorry to break your bubble, but many left all their possessions behind and headed out west.

When they arrived in Utah, many faced hardships and money problems. The crops failed and failed again. Prosperity came out of faithfulness to god who blessed the saints.

i’ve apparently read more of it than you. I’ve become believer that many folks were exploited to enrich the early LDS leaders. people who ended up in utah with nothing were pretty much dependent on the LDS church. that made for good worker bees. Brigham young was quite the entrepreneur with his alcoholic beverage business making lots of money. he was successful trading tobacco as well.

I think you have bought into the TV version of everyone coming across in handcarts through severe hardships. handcarts came later into the process when BY was trying to hurry everyone out there. the willie and martin companies were pretty much the only ones to really hit hard going. if you read older “unsanitized” versions of the DHC you will get a more accurate picture of what really happened from LDS sources. many had a pleasant journey and BY had the church’s cash to get everyone started building “the kingdom”. Many who left their possessions actually sold their possessions so that they could contribute to the church funds and purchase their gear and supplies for the crossing. they had a detailed list from BY of what to bring including their coffee, tea and brandy. while some individual and even group efforts failed in utah the “cricket” story was a pretty isolated event and there was always sufficient church controlled assets to handle everything. back then bishops and stake presidents kept a cut of the tithing as compensation and patriarchs charged for blessings so the “business” of the LDS church was pretty good for BY and the other senior leaders. ever wonder why the LDs church doesn’t publish financial reports?

 

[Allweather]

Submission… what a nice choice of wording. The same word is used regarding slavery and Satan. I can submit and obey anything, but that doesn’t make it true or right. Perhaps you are “satisfied” with what you have come to believe, but I am not satisfied with the religion of my birth, nor am I satisfied with Catholicism from what I’ve seen thusfar. I don’t mean any of this with malice or ill will. I’m just stating it how I see it.

It behooves us to submit to almighty God. That is nowhere near the same as slavery, unless it is slavery to God. I’d like to be a slave of God. I’m not good at that yet, and probably never will be good at it. I’ve still got too much of me going on, and I tend to rise to the control room at times when it’d be far better for me to remain down below, taking orders like a good slave should.

I’m not sure what you mean by “satisfied.”

 

[Allweather]

Why the secret? One does not make money by writing a book claiming that it is from god. One makes money by writing a novel. See the difference. Joseph made no money from this book. What to do?

There is money, and there is power. The very powerful seldom carry money on them, 'cause they have minions to do all their shopping for them. I suspect that Joseph Smith found more value in the establishment and commanding of a religion than in the mere selling of books.

Has no money been made selling the BoM?

 

[Allweather]

I guess maybe it’s time for me to put some faith in the Lord and go with what I feel. If God is on my side, it’ll all work out in the end. If not? …well, I’d rather not worry about that and just face life as it comes, even with all the unknowns.

This reminds me of the old bumper sticker: “God is my co-pilot”

It suggests that God is merely our helper, that we are in charge, and that we enlist God’s help to accomplish OUR goals.

God wants to be in control; he wants to be the pilot, not the copilot. He doesn’t want to be on OUR side, he wants us to be on HIS side.

Proverbs 1:7, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.”

Almighty God is not likely impressed with our efforts to “understand” Him.

 

[isaac.madsen]

He doesn’t want to be on OUR side, he wants us to be on HIS side.

I didn’t say I wanted God to be my little elf helper. I want Him to be my guide, and I believe that he HAS been. By saying “if God is on my side” I guess I really mean, if my plans are in line with His.

 

[isaac.madsen]

I’d like to be a slave of God.

Well go ahead and be his slave then. As for me, I believe that God wants us to be independent - not above him, but to have our own wills in Heaven. You can sit there kissing his feet and strumming a harp when you get to heaven if you like, but I really don’t think that’s what God wants of us. I think he’d rather we be useful and independent individuals, even (and especially) after death.

 

[Allweather]

Well go ahead and be his slave then. As for me,** I believe that God wants us to be independent - **not above him, but to have our own wills in Heaven. You can sit there kissing his feet and strumming a harp when you get to heaven if you like, but I really don’t think that’s what God wants of us. I think he’d rather we be useful and independent individuals, even (and especially) after death.

I’m speaking of a more mature Christianity. After spending most of my life trying to bring God into line with my hopes and desires, I’ve realized that it is far more beneficial to bring myself into line with His. Only in God’s will can our own destinies be fully appreciated. To the extent that we are “independent” of God’s will, we are failing as human beings.

Kiss His feet? I’m too unworthy of so great an honor. In heaven, though, washed in the blood of the lamb, I hope to join the unending choirs of angels and saints, worshipping the Lamb who was slain.

 

[isaac.madsen]

To the extent that we are “independent” of God’s will, we are failing as human beings.

Kiss His feet? I’m too unworthy of so great an honor. In heaven, though, washed in the blood of the lamb, I hope to join the unending choirs of angels and saints, worshipping the Lamb who was slain.

I wasn’t saying necessarily independent of his will, but rather that we have free will even after death and I doubt God wants us to just sit there and praise him all day. Sure, it’s good to remember God after we die, same as it is while we live. It’s more of a father-child relationship than a bask in God’s glory sort of relationship. If that’s the kind of God you think he is, I’d rather have nothing to do with him. No offense against you or even your version of God. I just don’t agree with the “after we die, we’ll do nothing but worship the almighty” concept. If that’s what it’s all about, God’s a self-centered jerk and he can go to hell.

 

[deb1024]

I wasn’t saying necessarily independent of his will, but rather that we have free will even after death and I doubt God wants us to just sit there and praise him all day. Sure, it’s good to remember God after we die, same as it is while we live. It’s more of a father-child relationship than a bask in God’s glory sort of relationship. If that’s the kind of God you think he is, I’d rather have nothing to do with him. No offense against you or even your version of God. I just don’t agree with the “after we die, we’ll do nothing but worship the almighty” concept. If that’s what it’s all about, God’s a self-centered jerk and he can go to hell.

Maybe you need to find out God wants. You need to start buy reading the Bible not the Book or Mormon. Your ideas are just that - your Ideas.

 

[distracted]

I am starting this thread in response to the following link:
trialsofascension.net/mormon.html

After reading much of what is listed there, I went over to ldschat.com in order to see what kind of response I would get. I’ve been a member of the LDS faith all of my life and over the past year began questioning my faith. Still, I have remained a member despite the obvious faults in the church. I never expected to be kicked out of the church, but I have every reason to believe that if I continue in my efforts to discover truth, that will be exactly the case. Within 5 minutes, I became officially banned from ldschat.com for merely asking questions about the church, quoting material directly from LDS-approved literature. Needless to say, I received no answer to those questions. Neither did I receive any explanation for why I was banned against their policy, which states that users can be banned only “after being warned.” I received no such warning.

The purpose of this discussion is not my being banned from ldschat.com, however. I intend that the focus will be on the 20 Truths about Mormonism article. Please keep the discussion polite and I’m tired of being attacked by members of all religions, including my own, which I expect to soon leave of my own will or become excommunicated for my knowledge of it’s origin.

I wouldn’t belong to an organization that kicked me out just 4 asking questions. That shows, 4 one, that they have something 2 hide… This is just my opinion: There seems to be a lot of “hate” (4 lack of a better word) in non-Catholic religions… OK, the Catholic Church is not filled with perfect angels… but @ least Catholics are more open-minded, usually more charitable, etc… and you won’t get kicked out of the Church for questioning it…
There have been at least 2 black popes that i have heard about (4 instance). A lot of other so-called Christian religions are racist… if not officially, then by tradition…
I’ve run out of time but will keep you in my prayers…