30,000 denominations of protestantism?

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lucy212 said:
Adoration, Monks of

Alexian Brothers (CFA)

Assumptionists (AA)

Augustinians (OSA)

Baptistine Sisters (CSJB)

Barnabites (CRSP)

Basilians (CSB)

Benedictines (OSB)

Benedictines, Camaldolese (OSB Cam)

Blessed Sacrament, Congregation of the (SSS)

Blessed Sacrament, Servants of the (SSS)

Blessed Sacrament, Sisters of the (SBS)

Camillus, Order of St. (OSCam)

Carmelites
Glenmary Sisters

Good Shepherd Sisters

Good Shepherd, Little Brothers of the (BGS)

Holy Cross Brothers (CSC)

Holy Spirit Missionary Sisters

Holy Spirit Adoration Sisters (SSpSAP)

Congregation of the Sisters, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary (IHM)

Congregation of the Incarnate Word and Blessed Sacrament (CVI)

Jesuits (SJ)

Jesus, Congregation of the Infant (CIJ)

Jesus Crucified and the Sorrowful Mother, Congregation of (CJC)

Jesus Our Hope, Sisters of (SJH)

Josephite Fathers and Brothers (SSJ)

Lamb of God, Sisters of the

And this is only about 5-10% of the list. Where did they all come from? And if they share the same heritage and belief, why are there so many different kinds?
I could care less about size, geography or the reason that each was begun in the first place. Surely the Roman Catholic Church has worked out all the issues that gave rise to these different orders, in different eras, with various needs for reform and revival, or specific ministry.
Why have they not consolidated, rejoined one another?
Pride? Money? Theology?
Surely a Jesuit would have no problem sharing the same space with an Augustinian, or even a Dominican, and while they are at it, maybe some Carthusians could share the same space with Opus Dei.
Maybe if you can answer these questions about Roman Catholicism, you may find some insight into your questions.

I am not trying to knock Catholics, ,** honestly**, but maybe there is a correlation between the two situations; maybe the difference and ministries of these groups are due to something other than them being petty, shallow, stubborn, or deliberately schismatic.
We want the world to be simple, but just has the history that brought about the Reformation is not simple, with one side 100% right and the other 100% wrong, neither is the path of Salvation and the twists and turns that resulted in the rending of the body of Christ, and who knows, may be part of the grand scheme of things.
I mean, who would have thought a virgin mother?, a baby who was God?, and a crucifixion? and 12 wide-eyed with wonder me would bring about the reconciliation God and man.
I do not take this disunity lightly, and we all will bear the wounds and responsibility of it one way or another, if we a part of the One “True Church”, or are fortunate enough to be eating the crumbs that fall from her table;
Neither do I dare limit the ways of Grace and Mercy-
God forbid, when my own Salvation, as well as all mankind depends on it.
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May I point out that the basic faith of all of these groups is the same? None of them teaches anything in opposition to any Catholic teaching.

Why would God intentionally create discord? Either it is God’s plan that babies be baptised or it is not. Someone is closer to correct than others. It HAS to be that way, or there is no such thing as truth.

I do not limit God’s grace. Look at my posts on here. IF you can only be Christian as a Baptist, so be it. My question is WHY are there three Southern Baptist Churches within walking distance of my house, two Church of Gods, one Church of Christ, and a Methodist? There is one Catholic Curch is my town and a seemingly infinite number of Protestant ones, including multiple churches of the same denomination. IF, in reality, there are only a couple dozen denominations, there should be a couple dozen churches.
 
lucy << THERE ARE NOT, REPEAT, NOT 33,OOO DENOMINATIONS.
THE GUY’S METHOD OF COUNTING IS DISTORTING AND INFLATING NUMBERS, YET CATHOLICS, IN SPITE OF BEING REPEATEDLY CORRECTED, THIS LIE KEEPS GETTING RECYCLED I THINK THE MODERATOR WOULD AT LEAST CATCH IT BY NOW…WHAT’S UP WITH THIS??? >>

HELLO? NO NEED TO DO THE ALL-CAPS. I CAN HEAR YOU. 😃

It is not fair to call the number a “lie.” The encyclopedia is a standard source of statistics and the numbers are very well catalogued.

There ARE 33000 total Christian denominations worldwide if you accept Barrett’s definition of denomination and his “counting by country.” I’ve admitted the “counting by country” thing will not give you the “true” number of “unique” denominations since there are overlaps.

For the U.S.A. there are 634 total Christian denominations listed at World Christian Database online, with one Catholic Church listed. Would you at least accept that number as representative of the U.S.A. ?

To find the “true” number worldwide, dividing each mega-bloc by 242 is a start, but that won’t do since many of those denominations are not in all 242 (or 238) countries.

And if you don’t like the World Christian Encyclopedia, then go do your own research, visit all 242 countries as Barrett did, and publish your own rival encyclopedia. 😃 :eek:

Phil P
 
PhilVaz said:
lucy
HELLO? NO NEED TO DO THE ALL-CAPS. I CAN HEAR YOU. 😃

It is not fair to call the number a “lie.” The encyclopedia is a standard source of statistics and the numbers are very well catalogued.

And if you don’t like the World Christian Encyclopedia, then go do your own research, visit all 242 countries as Barrett did, and publish your own rival encyclopedia. 😃 :eek:

Phil P
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You may hear me, but you are not listening.

I will not challenge your dogma of papal infallibility/or the infallable dogmas that require your assent… because I respect your beliefs and and it’s a non negotiable for you.

However, you can’t go around calling a statistical study, infallible because it’s published in a big fat fancy book with a fancy name, that happens to add weight to your whatever it is you are trying to prove (which is still unclear).

I do not need to accept this study because I haven’t done my own…a little critcal thinking and research is all I needed.
This is not a case of overlaying my personal interpretation on Holy writ.

Again, you need to do some a little analytical thinking for yourself. It’s not a sin…and last I checked, this book didn’t have the Imprimatur and 33000 is not even remotely related to the foundation of your faith…it’s not like I’m challenging the trinity. We can have different opinions on this.
I am communicating the problems I have with this number and why numbers of groups within a denomination, don’t even prove chaos of doctrine. You are going to have to do that with something other than eye popping numbers-maybe actually read confessional statements of the major denominations…

Determining how Barrett redefined and counted denominations is all I need to know it cannot be used to state there are X number of denominations worldwide.

BTW, redefining widely accepted definitions, like denomination, should be a red flag that this is not standard research.

The man is an eccentric, and there is not another mathmatition/ social scientist who would get away with making up his own accounting system and expected it to be widely accepted by his peers just because he’s his hobby is visiting as many churches world wide as possible; He enjoys travel-fine.
He likes to visit each and every one of his subjects fine;
He likes the minutia of the riding up and down streets, checking yellow pages looking for every assembly calling itself a church and recording it in his little notebook-fine;
He likes personally shaking hands with the as many pastors as possible-fin;
It’s an incredible lifetime achievement that few can match.

**And there is a reason it is the only research of it’s kind-because no one “researches” in this manner.
**
**Try the Pew Research Center for Religion & Public Life if you want statistics to use in a debate.
**
**This goes back to my original statement that a little human interaction, listening, pondering and responding, also called communication is largely lacking in this forum.
All that got left on the cut and paste floor.

It’s more important to defend the hammer that you can pound your argument home with.**

And as far as personally deciding there are too many types of Baptists…I would say what does that have to do with you, other than it seems to irritate you. Unless a Baptist expresses interest in your opinion or wants to know about Roman Catholicism, I don’t understand your obsession.

Many things bother me about other churches, even the Catholic Church, but when I find myself trying to make something my business, that is not my business, (useless back and forth inhuman banter), I try to remember Christ’s words to Peter:
**“Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”
Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”’

John 21
**
 
**PhilVaz said:

It is not fair to call the number a “lie.” The encyclopedia is a standard source of statistics and the numbers are very well catalogued.
**

There may not be an iota of untruth in Mr Barrat’s Book.
But it I challenge the truth of how you are using it-Making a declarative statement that there are 33,000 denominations in the world.
If you want to amend it and state clearly (not in a bunch of confusing mathmatical syllogisms) that he counted the same confessional body that exists in USA and Canada, not as one, but two distinct denominations and the sum total of countries that that same confession body exists in, are each counted as a seperate denomination. And that even Roman Catholicism’s numbers come out in the (I can’t recall the exact number) but in the 30 to 40 different denominations.
I have no problem if you present it that way
But I have never heard it explained in it’s context.

But in the long run-why bother-
It’s just another gauntlet to throw down…causing a non catholic to see red and start blindly defending themselves…and we both know the value of those interchanges.

Varc, being orthodox is no excuse-you do have a dog in this fight…we all do when truth is distorted and the result is more anger, more seperation, more wounds to the Body of Christ.

I am Orthodox, and already I know i will carry into eternity scars from the “wounds I received in the house of my friends.”
As well as live with the ones I have inflicted in blind passion.
**
The Mercy of Christ is the only thing that saves, that makes a “Christian”.
But woe to us-we can contribute to his unmaking…let us all keep the Millstone before our eyes, in our minds before we speak.**
 
Lucy made a good point back there somewhere.

These figures are bandied about for effect. I think that in one way of looking at it each store front non-denominational church could be counted individually, but that is perhaps a distortion…lumping them all together as one could be a distortion too!

I think that Africa might have a quite a few, depending upon how one wishes to count them.

The Catholic Church (what CAF will call the Catholic Church) is organized as one single umbrella organization, with wholey owned subsidiaries. That information can be distorted for effect as well: it’s own Eastern Catholic churches are sometimes artificially separated from each other and counted separately.

Do the Ruthenians in Europe and the Ruthenians in America count as one church, or two? or three or four? For those who want to emphasize how worldwide the Papal communion is, the more of these ancient churches strung together the better: 21, 22, 23 Sui Iuris churches, and counting! Many of these are artificially separated at the borders by decree of Rome, but the Roman Catholic subsidiary crosses those same borders and it is not counted in multiples? Then again for apologetic purposes the whole conglomeration can be called one church! I am not going to argue whether they are right or wrong to do this for their own system of bookkeeping, but it is clear that they are changing the way they describe their own church depending upon the image they are trying to portray in the minds of others.

Orthodoxy is usually counted by Roman Catholic apologists as different churches in each country, when in fact among Orthodox it is all the same, we don’t brag about the fact that we have 20 or 30 Orthodox synods, and we are not ashamed to say that each synod is self governing. We simply have self rule in each locality that is not mission territory, not different theology or worship. We always ask: “are you Orthodox?” not “what kind of Orthodox are you?”

So, according to Roman Catholic apologists are Protestant churches which teach the same things in the same tradition multiple churches or one? Does every country with Lutheran churches have a different Lutheran church? Apparently, according to Roman Catholic Apologists they are not one but many.

I too, have never seen a reference that will justify the claim of 30,000 (I remember when the commonly stated figure was 22,000) Protestent denominations. I think it is creative math, and that is beneath the dignity of those who will resort to it to manipulate other peoples thinking.
 
lucy << But I challenge the truth of how you are using it-Making a declarative statement that there are 33,000 denominations in the world. If you want to amend it and state clearly (not in a bunch of confusing mathmatical syllogisms) that he counted the same confessional body that exists in USA and Canada, not as one, but two distinct denominations and the sum total of countries that that same confession body exists in, are each counted as a seperate denomination. >>

I might be able to settle this by writing a short program that analyzes the data from World Christian Database online, ignores the “duplicate” names from various countries, and comes up with the unique number. You can download all data in one giant spreadsheet and save as a .csv file.

I’ll post the VB source code here when done. 👍 :eek:

Phil P
 
:eek: Well, if there is not 33000 protestant denom’s then exactly how many are we talking about then. Its more then ONE CHURCH. According to the bible, there is ONE church not however many there are out there, that do not agree with one another, except that they are protesting the Catholic Church.
 
Dearest-in -Christ, PhilVaz,

I don’t really care how many denominations there are. Denominations are not saved or lost, people are.

It’s dehumanizing stereotyping of millions of people you don’t know anything about, not even their names (but God does, intimately) that goes on with the contention that most of Protestantism is some kind of heretical hydra that keeps producing sects and each is further from the truth than the last. (read a-n-y Protestant catechism, or confession of faith yet?, then, since that’s only a set of propositions, have you looked into the soul of one who confesses Faith, oh so close to yours) and been able to judge it worthy or not?

I have lived most of my life in the Protestant World-on the inside of all those Churches that you only pass by on the outside. Yes there are divisions, but there are also reunions.
and realignments. Groups whose name do not even resemble one another, and may have originated thousands of miles and scores of years apart, find that their foundation doctrine are identical, they recognize themselves in each other’s liturgies and are actually share complete communion, though they maintain their separate identities. And with very few exceptions, the Nicene Faith has remained intact.
Protestant Churches are not like Frankensteins Monster-put together from unrelated dead doctrine/tradition stuck together and “reanimated” through demonic spirits.

( cradlecathlic26 there are guardian Angels, too and invisible warfare going on that you can’t possibly know the outcome …or does Rome own all the Angels, too–if you cheer on the destruction of all things non-Roman Catholic, it’s not institutions that will be destroyed, it’s souls. An “institution” or “faith community” is a non-entity and won’t suffer if it doesn’t gain the Beatific vision–but thanks for cheering us on, I think???)

I know that is not what you have been taught, and with Rome -if your not under the Pope’s authority you might as well be worshiping bert and ernie. There is only black and white, In or Out, so I don’t expect you to grasp by taking my word for it, that the majority of Protestants are Trinitarian, Nicene based. (with the exception of Mormon and JW), we have more in common with you than you could ever let yourself imagine.

Serious problems-of course, but not even your infallible Magisterial has protected you from deep corruption and trials caused by heresy.

God has been working since the beginning for our Salvation, and at times, we haven’t given Him much to work with, but He manages in spite of us…No side is blameless in the major schisms (argue if you want-it’s your job), and moving toward unity is not a top down responsibility-let Kasper, the Patriarchs, Bishops, let work it out–and if we can point out to separated brother or sister where they are wrong, well, so much the better.
Not going to work.
We work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and pray for ourselves and one another. Moving toward Christ moves us toward each other, but more importantly breaks down the roots of separation-pride, hate, malice,
Nothing will happen unless the Peace of Christ reigns in us. It can’t be coerced, or enforced from the top down. The schismatic soup is already simmering and will boil over again and again. (our fault-disobedience, failure to submit. I know).

It will take much self examination, self-criticism, repentance, and gentleness for the weakest among us. The Yoke of Christ that you thrive under, may break and crush another…we still all need to be under Christ’s yoke, but maybe it doesn’t need to be such a choke chain (have at me-I know that’s like waving a red flag in front of a bull).

I don’t know how old you are, but I am almost as old as dirt, I have broken a lot of bones in the struggle, but the “bones with Thou hast broken” have come to a place where they can rejoice. I think at this rate, all the things I thought I was sure of, how God works, how thing MUST be just so, will keep diminishing and if I can have one last prayer that I can pray in faith at the end…it will be Lord have Mercy on me, a sinner.

Fire away. I’ve learned the spiritual value of “tuck and roll” with the punches, whether they come from above or beside or below.
I’ll never outlive my need to be to be corrected…just be
gentle on these old bones.
 
<< Well, if there is not 33000 protestant denom’s then exactly how many are we talking about then. >>

I am about to calculate the true and unique number, leaving out the “duplicates” by country. I’ve been challenged a couple times, I want to follow through. 👍

First step: GET THE DATA ( in XLS or CSV format ) edit: I have sorted this data by Christian mega-bloc, then within mega-bloc by Christian denomination name

Second step: Write a short VB or other computer program that counts the denominations, ignoring any duplicate names by country.

The data has the following fields: Country of denomination, Denomination Name, Christian megabloc, Congs 2005, AC 2005

Christian megabloc = one of six groups: Anglicans, disaffiliated/doubly affiliated (I’ll ignore these), Independents, Marginals, Orthodox, Protestants, and Roman Catholics. The “Roman Catholics” number exactly 238 for 238 countries in the spreadsheet. Most of the indies and Protestants do not have denoms in all 238 countries, but something far less.

Congs 2005 = number of congregations or worship centers in that country (as of 2005)

AC 2005 = approx number of affiliated church members for this denom in this country (as of 2005)

I am using the World Christian Database (WCD) online. Anyone can do this. Sign in, it is free.

I’m not sure why there is a discrepancy between the 9000+ (WCD online) vs. 33000+ (World Christian Encyclopedia, 2001 2nd edition) since they are both supposedly using the same data, research, stats. The WCD is the online successor of the WCE. I assume the WCE had to do more extrapolation work and didn’t have specific names for some of the denominations, so I’ll stick with the 9000+ named online. The total unique number is going to be therefore something less than 9000 using that source.

Phil P
 
<< Dearest-in -Christ, PhilVaz, I don’t really care how many denominations there are. Denominations are not saved or lost, people are. >>

Too late. I’m already figuring it out. You SCREAM AND YELL (ALL CAPS) about the number, so I am getting you the true and unique number. Hold on while my VB program calculates away… 😛

Phil P
 
I am catholic, and stand by my faith. I dont think that protestants are going to hell for believing the wrong way, i believe they were led in the wrong direction and that God knows this and will have pitty on them. Protestants are good people, and truly believe what they believe, they are just led wrong in a few ways. thats all.
 
lucy212 said:
Adoration, Monks of

Alexian Brothers (CFA)

Assumptionists (AA)

Augustinians (OSA)

Baptistine Sisters (CSJB)

Barnabites (CRSP)

Basilians (CSB)

Benedictines (OSB)

Benedictines, Camaldolese (OSB Cam)

Blessed Sacrament, Congregation of the (SSS)

Blessed Sacrament, Servants of the (SSS)

Blessed Sacrament, Sisters of the (SBS)

Camillus, Order of St. (OSCam)

Carmelites
Glenmary Sisters

Good Shepherd Sisters

Good Shepherd, Little Brothers of the (BGS)

Holy Cross Brothers (CSC)

Holy Spirit Missionary Sisters

Holy Spirit Adoration Sisters (SSpSAP)

Congregation of the Sisters, Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary (IHM)

Congregation of the Incarnate Word and Blessed Sacrament (CVI)

Jesuits (SJ)

Jesus, Congregation of the Infant (CIJ)

Jesus Crucified and the Sorrowful Mother, Congregation of (CJC)

Jesus Our Hope, Sisters of (SJH)

Josephite Fathers and Brothers (SSJ)

Lamb of God, Sisters of the

And this is only about 5-10% of the list. Where did they all come from? And if they share the same heritage and belief, why are there so many different kinds?
I could care less about size, geography or the reason that each was begun in the first place. Surely the Roman Catholic Church has worked out all the issues that gave rise to these different orders, in different eras, with various needs for reform and revival, or specific ministry.
Why have they not consolidated, rejoined one another?
Pride? Money? Theology?
Surely a Jesuit would have no problem sharing the same space with an Augustinian, or even a Dominican, and while they are at it, maybe some Carthusians could share the same space with Opus Dei.
Maybe if you can answer these questions about Roman Catholicism, you may find some insight into your questions.

I am not trying to knock Catholics, ,** honestly**, but maybe there is a correlation between the two situations; maybe the difference and ministries of these groups are due to something other than them being petty, shallow, stubborn, or deliberately schismatic.
We want the world to be simple, but just has the history that brought about the Reformation is not simple, with one side 100% right and the other 100% wrong, neither is the path of Salvation and the twists and turns that resulted in the rending of the body of Christ, and who knows, may be part of the grand scheme of things.
I mean, who would have thought a virgin mother?, a baby who was God?, and a crucifixion? and 12 wide-eyed with wonder me would bring about the reconciliation God and man.
I do not take this disunity lightly, and we all will bear the wounds and responsibility of it one way or another, if we a part of the One “True Church”, or are fortunate enough to be eating the crumbs that fall from her table;
Neither do I dare limit the ways of Grace and Mercy-
God forbid, when my own Salvation, as well as all mankind depends on it.
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Are you comparing different religous orders to denominations?
 
well, if everyone united, there one only be one church, the Catholic Church. So it doesnt sound like a bad idea to me.😃
 
There are so many denominations because, thank fortune, the West----Europe and North America, mainly the United States, has been free for several hundred years to form these denominations. Though freedom of speech and association, two of our most treasured rights.

Before the Reformation, the Roman Catholic church ruthlessly squelched all dissent, destroying entire populations in the south of France, and killing, often publicly and horribly by fire, many others, including Jews, to serve as a real disincentive to any others who might get any bright ideas about religion.

Many of these so called ‘denominations’ consist of a single church, often a very large and successful one, founded by one man, and only loosely connected to a denomination.

Other denominations are in the process of re-uniting, as the United Church of Christ did some years ago. Others have differences with other branches of their denomination which are inconsequential, but don’t want to reunite because of issues regarding property, money and logistics.

I have never known two Catholics who believed the same thing. As far as I am concerned, each Catholic is a denomination. And so many Catholics differ seriously from Rome’s official doctrines, that, if it were not for the dependence of the Vatican on massive financial support from the US, Rome would have declared the entire US church in schism.
 
could you tell me what differences in catholics faiths you have encountered? Every catholic I know believes the same things. If they dont, then they take themselves down the road.
 
We’re talking of Protestant Denominations as an example of disunity. However, an interesting point that seems to be missed is that there are core beliefs shared that enable them to all be considered as Protestant Denominations - normally regarding the centrality of Jesus and His work on the Cross.

Religious groups and sects that do not share this unity are not considered a protestant denomination, but something else entirely.

Secondly, we’re not strictly comparing apples with apples. In Protestant there is no central figure who can warn people that if the don’t stick around or agree to an accepted theology then they put themselves in danger. And yet there remains common agreement on the central theology that makes them Protestant Denominations…

Apart from that, my own experience in being part of Catholic lay communities makes me even more think we’re not comparing apples with apples. I’ve been a part of a large Catholic lay community that has had a number of splits, due to different thinking. Everyone remains Catholic, of course - for no one is an option to up and leave that - but in the areas where it’s up to the choice of the person and their thinking, that’s where the disunity and splits occur.

The same things happen in both protestantism and Catholicism…
 
I think what you are saying is that some catholics disagree with some of the catholic laws and that is when they differ. But, they believe in the same doctrine of the catholic faith. They are still one body of believers, they do not split and start a church down the road with there own rules.
 
cradlecathlic26 said:
I think what you are saying is that some catholics disagree with some of the catholic laws and that is when they differ. But, they believe in the same doctrine of the catholic faith. They are still one body of believers, they do not split and start a church down the road with there own rules.
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Nope, that wasn’t what I was saying, but thanks for the reply.

What I said was:
  1. When it’s not an area where it’s up to their own practice, e.g. Church theology or pronouncements, they’re all in unity.
  2. Where it’s an area like lay communities, where it’s up to the members of the Catholic Church to practice unity without the Church making pronouncements as to what shall be, there’s just as much disunity practised as what we accuse Protestantism of.
Hope that helps.
 
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