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Mick_Taylor
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If there really are 30,000 or more denominations of Protestant belief and practice, what is the cause of all sorts of different religious beliefs and practices?
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tobinatorstark
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ignorance of truth and personal interpretation of scripture
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PhilVaz
Guest
Mick << If there really are 30,000 or more denominations of Protestant belief and practice, what is the cause of all sorts of different beliefs and practices? >>
Before this thread goes any further, there are actually now over 40,000 “total Christian denominations” but the way the original source (World Christian Encyclopedia [2001], 2nd edition, edited by Barrett et al) counts them produces “duplicates” in each country. That is the main problem with this large number (the duplicates). That source breaks the number 33,000+ (year 2000 stats) down into 6 mega-blocs:
Independents (about 22000)
Protestants (about 9000)
“Marginals” (about 1600)
Orthodox (781)
Roman Catholics (242)
Anglicans (168)
22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+
So according to Barrett’s Encyclopedia, Protestants are “only” 9000 of the total, while Independents are 22,000. But what most do not tell you is that 97% (roughly calculated by myself) of these 22,000 Independents are indeed Protestants. All detailed in my article below. BTW, Your Total “Christian Denominations” Count for today (8/3/2009) is 40,910.
The Facts and Stats on 33,000 Denominations
As far as unique Protestant denominations (non-duplicates), you have more like 5000+ as far as I could count from the available online data (World Christian Database the successor to the WCE maintained by Gordon-Conwell Seminary people):
Specific List of 5000+ Protestant Denominations
Many of the beliefs and practices are probably “minor” but some are major (the “Oneness” Pentecostal groups are counted among the “orthodox” Protestant groups in Barrett’s study, for example). Of course “orthodox” is tough to define if you are Protestant anyway.
Phil P
Before this thread goes any further, there are actually now over 40,000 “total Christian denominations” but the way the original source (World Christian Encyclopedia [2001], 2nd edition, edited by Barrett et al) counts them produces “duplicates” in each country. That is the main problem with this large number (the duplicates). That source breaks the number 33,000+ (year 2000 stats) down into 6 mega-blocs:
Independents (about 22000)
Protestants (about 9000)
“Marginals” (about 1600)
Orthodox (781)
Roman Catholics (242)
Anglicans (168)
22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+
So according to Barrett’s Encyclopedia, Protestants are “only” 9000 of the total, while Independents are 22,000. But what most do not tell you is that 97% (roughly calculated by myself) of these 22,000 Independents are indeed Protestants. All detailed in my article below. BTW, Your Total “Christian Denominations” Count for today (8/3/2009) is 40,910.
The Facts and Stats on 33,000 Denominations
As far as unique Protestant denominations (non-duplicates), you have more like 5000+ as far as I could count from the available online data (World Christian Database the successor to the WCE maintained by Gordon-Conwell Seminary people):
Specific List of 5000+ Protestant Denominations
Many of the beliefs and practices are probably “minor” but some are major (the “Oneness” Pentecostal groups are counted among the “orthodox” Protestant groups in Barrett’s study, for example). Of course “orthodox” is tough to define if you are Protestant anyway.
Phil P
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estesbob
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Sola Scriptura is proved false even if there is only one other denomination.
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AJTheMan
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I don’t think that there are that many different denominations. There are a lot, however. To answer your question – Protestantism is big about individual belief. You can be a free-thinker and take heterodox views and be a Protestant. It’s just the way that Protestantism was born – freedom to take the bible in your own way.
This is in contrast with some Protestant churches and the Catholic churches, however. For instance, to be a Lutheran, they want you to be dedicated to his theology. To be a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, they want you to be dedicated to the Pope or Patriarch’s theology.
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estesbob
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That is not correct but is a common misconception.; A Catholic should be dedicated to God -we live that dedication by adhering to the teachngs of the Church.
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PhilVaz
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estes << Sola Scriptura is proved false even if there is only one other denomination. >>
True, but Barrett lists several “Catholic” split off groups (e.g. or Catholic “denominations” among the “Independents” and “Marginals”). These are quite small (as I show in my article) compared with the 1,000,000,000+ Catholics worldwide, but they are there. It is just much simpler for us Catholics to distinguish these schismatic/heretical/crazy odd “Catholic” groups from the very many “odd” or not-so-odd groups among the Independents/Marginals who claim to follow sola scriptura (Bible alone).
Sola Scriptura produces a much bigger mess for worldwide “Christianity” than Sola Ecclesia ever did.
Phil P
True, but Barrett lists several “Catholic” split off groups (e.g. or Catholic “denominations” among the “Independents” and “Marginals”). These are quite small (as I show in my article) compared with the 1,000,000,000+ Catholics worldwide, but they are there. It is just much simpler for us Catholics to distinguish these schismatic/heretical/crazy odd “Catholic” groups from the very many “odd” or not-so-odd groups among the Independents/Marginals who claim to follow sola scriptura (Bible alone).
Sola Scriptura produces a much bigger mess for worldwide “Christianity” than Sola Ecclesia ever did.
Phil P
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kristanl
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Maybe there are not that many different denominations but I’ve heard that from one protestant church to the next their can be different beliefs that depend on the pastor. For example, one of my friends Baptist church told the congregation that they are not allowed to drink, then she went to another Baptist church and they are not against people drinking… so I think in that sense there is a difference across the denominations.
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AJTheMan
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Yeah. I want to make it clear that I wasn’t intending to smear your religion or anything.
I probably could have clarified a bit better.
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BrianH
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Does that also apply to groups who use scripture AND tradition? If not, why?
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Mick_Taylor
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So, in your opinion, the cause of all the different religious beliefs and practices is sola Scriptura?
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estesbob
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You are missing the point-if the Spirit guides all who prayerfullly read Scripture to the Truth there is not room for even one additional denomination.
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BrianH
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I am trying to get your point and the validity of it as it applies to scripture and tradition. If I grant that with scripture, why does it not apply to tradition and scripture as well?
I will ask again and reword your question to me.
If the spirit guides all who prayerfully read scripture and believe in Tradition, is there room for even one additional group?
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estesbob
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No-there can be no more than one TRUTH.
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tobinatorstark
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No. Only the church which Christ founded cf Ephesians 4:1-6
I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.
Haydock Bible Commentary
Ver. 1. Here begins the second part of this epistle, in which he exhorts them to the practice of Christian virtues. (Witham)
Ver. 4. In one hope of your vocation. The three great reasons that we have to love one another are contained in this verse, because we have but one body, of which Christ is the head. We are all animated by the same spirit, viz. the Holy Ghost, who is given to us all, and we all live in the same hope of eternal happiness. (Calmet)
Ver. 5. This contains some more reasons why Christians should love one another. We are all the servants of the same God, believe the same mysteries, and receive the same sacraments, whoever may be the dispenser of them. — One faith. As rebellion is the bane of commonwealths and kingdoms, and peace and concord the preservation of the same; so is schism, and diversity of faith or fellowship in the service of God, the calamity of the Church: and peace, unity, and uniformity, the special blessing of God therein. St. Cyprian, in his book on the unity of the Church, writeth thus: “One Church, for one is my dove. This unity of the Church, he that holdeth not, doth he think he holdeth the faith? He that withstandeth or resisteth the Church, he that resisteth Peter’s chair, upon which the Church was built, doth he trust that he is in the Church?” And again, Ep. xl. “There is one God, and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair, by our Lord’s voice founded upon Peter. To set up another altar, or to constitute another priesthood, besides the one altar and the one priesthood, is impossible. Whosever gathereth elsewhere scattereth. It is adulterous, it is impious, it is sacrilegious, whatsoever is instituted by man to the breach of God’s disposition. Get ye far from such men: they are blind, and leaders of the blind.” St. Hilary also applies this text against the Arians thus: “Perilous and miserable it is that there are now among them as many faiths as wills, and as many doctrines as manners; whilst modes of faith are written as men will, or as they will, so are understood. Whereas the one truth teaches there is but one God, one Lord, one baptism, and also one faith: hence whilst more faiths are made, they begin by falling from that which is the only faith, and end in having no faith at all.” (St. Hilary, lib. ad Constantium Augustum.)
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BrianH
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Correct but that is not what you have been arguing. You have essentially stated that because there is more than one denomination this essentially invalidates a Sola Scriptura approach. In other words, this particular thing (in this case Sola Scriptura) is not true because people believe different things. You are establishing objective TRUTH based on subjective human response.
However, you will not grant this to Scripture AND Tradition but you have not said why. In reality, the atheist would have a field day with this line of reasoning. They would contend that because there is more than one religion, it invalidates ALL religion (ie the presence of more than one group clearly shows that God does not exist because people have different views about him). Your intentions are good but the reasoning behind it do not hold up. If they do hold up, you have not stated why this does not apply to scripture and tradition.
Realize what we both believe because the presuppositions are the same, there is one TRUTH. However, I am not contending that a human response validates or invalidates objecitve truth. You are and it is an inconsistent view as it applies to other ways of ascertaining TRUTH (tradition).
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myfavoritmartin
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What does SS have to do with different practices?
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estesbob
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However your TRUTH flies in the face of 2,000 years of Sacred Tradition. Both of us read scipture and claim to embrace tradition yet we have differening views-how can we resolve that? It would not be a major problem if it we just you and i but since “Sola Scriptura” was invented Christianity has run off in thousands and thousands of different directions. How can that be if the TRUTH can be found by all in scripture and trasition?
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estesbob
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Not different practices-different docitrines, different versions of the TRUTH.
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tobinatorstark
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it contradicts 2 Thessalonians 15 (Douay-Rheims, 14 in modern Bibles) and Ephesians 4:1-6. In other words it contradicts scripture itself.
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