(30% of) Firms to cut health plans as reform starts: survey

[1holycatholic]

The ends do not justify the means - We are called to use moral means to accomplish moral ends.

:yup:

 

[1holycatholic]

Never did Christ promote to save one’s taxes or even put their money before His teachings or over the least of His.

Your response is irrelevant and in no way excuses your call for dissent from the Church.

 

[gnjsdad]

No dissecting necessary. You believe voters are irrelevant, so there is no need to pay any further attention to your posts regarding our great country.

Sorry you feel that way. Your question seemed like a sincere request for dialogue, so I took the time to give an honest answer. Now, it’s apparent I was being set up for this zinger. Sorry I wasted both our time.

 

[rlg94086]

Same old unfounded accusation based on a question.

You know nothing of the rural area I’m in and yet state your view as superior over experience.

I’m trying to understand Christ’s teaching through the Church, not through a political view as you offer.

Exactly why a one-size-fits-all approach is a bad idea. I bet the people of your state know your rural area’s needs better than the people in all the other states.

 

[rlg94086]

Sorry you feel that way. Your question seemed like a sincere request for dialogue, so I took the time to give an honest answer. Now, it’s apparent I was being set up for this zinger. Sorry I wasted both our time.

Not set up. I had no idea you were so far out in left field. You’ve rendered your own comments irrelevant. No worries though. I won’t waste any of my time reading any of your opinions, and you won’t have to waste any more time responding to me.

 

[Carlan]

In which case, then why are socialist leaning Catholics pushing state-run, state-funded, state-regulated medicine?

That is the political solution.

It would be far better if you were to support something that is in line with the teachings of the Church. One big thing that you, hopefully, one day will understand is that a State-run, State-regulated, State-funded solution doesn’t cut it. Period.
.

I did not comment on State sponsored health care.
Romney care for the State of Michigan was mentioned as a State model earlier in the thread but I do not remember anyone of the posters recommending that for the individual states of the union.
So much talk ,no wonder you all are at sixes and sevens.
Peace, Carlan

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Perhaps it would have been better, then, to have identified just exactly who has no provision for healthcare because of poverty and/or preexisting conditions. In solving a perceived (or fabricated) problem, it always helps to know there really is a systemic problem and what the problem really is before employing drastic systemic measures to solve it. That’s especiallly true when the perpetrators of the systemic overhaul admit that it won’t likely provide for any more people than were provided for pre-overhaul.

Are you suggesting there are no people without health care in the US?

I work in the health care industry, on an ambulance, in a rural county. I personally have witnessed people without life saving measures because they cannot afford it.

People can be stabilized, but there is no obligation on a hospital to provide extended treatments that can prolong life expectancy beyond what it is without the treatments needed.

Another personal experience I can share with you is, 8 years ago I became ill was hospitalized for 12 days. I received 2 operations and multiple antibiotics through an IV. Yes, they did save my life. Then the bills started coming in. I tried to pay on them but in the end was forced into bankruptcy. I appreciated the prayers, but there was no other ‘private help’, or any other help as the hospital’s billing company immediately sought help, so that they could be paid, through other sources. You can’t tell me that there are people in this country without health care.

We’ve been blessed since then. I am working in the health care industry and even though I have insurance through our local hospital where I am employed, it’s not a very good insurance and my deductible is very high. I had eye surgery last year and the insurance barely paid half of the expenses.

Maybe it’s because of my personal experiences that I can sympathize with other people. That can only be a partial reason. As I say, I see it every week through my work.

I think it’s time we admitted that Obamacare was “social change for the sake of social change”. Its primary effects will be funding abortions (yes, yes, I know about the bogus presidential order that doesn’t prevent anything) and forcing one segment of the middle class to subsidize another segment of the middle class. There’s no difference in the situation of the truly poor. But there is also the distinct possibility that even the middle class subsidy is illusory, since the middle class welfare it represents is a sliding benefit against the background of mandate-caused cost increases. Personally, I think we’ve all been had.

Yes, it maybe time to label an attempt to provide health care so we can steer the discussion.

We can use the government to stop abortions, because it’s God’s will. But we can’t use the government to care for the least of His, because it’s God’s will?

I don’t understand how people can believe in one side of a two party political system, OF THIS WORLD, to save us. It’s not going to happen. Our ‘government’ can do nothing without Him, just as Pilate had no authority over Christ without the authority given him by the Father. It’s a shame so many spend such an effort to separate God from our government, because it’s against Church doctrine, or because government can’t do anything. Do we not have faith in Christ to work through all earthly agencies if we ask Him?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Your response is irrelevant and in no way excuses your call for dissent from the Church.

So very sad that you have to resort to twists and untruths in this discussion. It is dishonest to say I call for dissent from the Church, That is totally untrue and only said because I ‘question’ your political view…

I will no be responding to you anymore;’ however you are in my prayers.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Exactly why a one-size-fits-all approach is a bad idea. I bet the people of your state know your rural area’s needs better than the people in all the other states.

Look for whatever excuse you can. I know the reality of this area, and this state. Whatever saves that which is important to us…

 

[rlg94086]

Look for whatever excuse you can. I know the reality of this area, and this state. Whatever saves that which is important to us…

Cool. So, you’d be okay with an overthrow of the government and a powerful dictator, as long as you get what you want?

 

[1holycatholic]

Look for whatever excuse you can. I know the reality of this area, and this state. Whatever saves that which is important to us…

Your post claims the ends justify the means which is contrary to Church doctrine.

Never did Jesus exclude Christians utilizing any avenue possible to achieve His teachings.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).
You are proclaiming things that are explicitly contrary to Church doctrine. It’s no surprise that you don’t care to defend your position.

 

[Carlan]

:tiphat::hug1::console:

Because, in my opinion, it’s irrelevant what the voters in the states want or don’t want. Elections have become a fiction, held to give the system we live under a veneer of legitimacy. I say that not because I favor such a condition but because that’s the reality. We live in a plutocracy, my friend, run by the rich and powerful for the rich and powerful. The influence of a couple of billionaires (Soros, the Koch brothers) is more profound than the thousands of votes cast in any state election. Ask the people of Wisconsin if they KNEW they were voting for the end of union collective barganing rights when they voted in Scott Walker. Why do you think small busineses can’t get the time of day from banks or from Washington? Could it be that the big mega-corporations with their bought and paid-for Congress in Washington control the rules of the game? And BTW, I refuse to accept that this all started with Obama or that it will change once Obama is out.

If the people in individual states could choose their own healthcare delivery systems and these systems conformed to Catholic social doctrine, I would be all for that. But that won’t happen. It doesn’t have a prospect of happening under the current system. IMO, a healthcare system run according to Catholic teaching requires a confessional state, a state which has as it’s foundational principle the acknowledged Kingship of Christ and the supremacy of the moral teachings of the Catholic Church. America isn’t that. It never will be that. Have you noticed how weak the Catholic influence is in America right now?. Does any public figure in America take seriously what the Bishops have to say? Right now, we Catholics are reduced to making an evaluaton between what we have now (not acceptable) and “Obamacare” (still not acceptable, but marginally better).

Please feel free to begin dissecting me now

Well, I must say you do express common sense a great deal more than some others on this thread Peace, Carlan

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Your post claims the ends justify the means which is contrary to Church doctrine.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).
You are proclaiming things that are explicitly contrary to Church doctrine. It’s no surprise that you don’t care to defend your position.

I said I wouldn’t respond to you, but felt the need to respond one last time.

It’s according to your own private interpretation, which appears to be through a biased eye to achieve a ‘political’ agenda.

The lack of charity, and dishonest assumptions, have me concreted in my belief that you are wrong.

What you call a bad intention is a concern for the poverty stricken, or sick; more precisely the least of His. You don’t seem able to see what I ask, or state, through the political lens you seem to prefer to see through.

Irony is choosing a piece of the Catechism that states ‘lying and calumny, good or just the end does not justify the means’, after repeating several false accusations against me.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Cool. So, you’d be okay with an overthrow of the government and a powerful dictator, as long as you get what you want?

So where do you read an overthrow in the government in attempting to provide health care for everyone?

I seek to maintain the teachings of Christ, others appear to save their money at all costs.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I said I wouldn’t respond to you, but felt the need to respond one last time.

It’s according to your own private interpretation, which appears to be through a biased eye to achieve a ‘political’ agenda.

The lack of charity, and dishonest assumptions, have me concreted in my belief that you are wrong.

What you call a bad intention is a concern for the poverty stricken, or sick; more precisely the least of His. You don’t seem able to see what I ask, or state, through the political lens you seem to prefer to see through.

Irony is choosing a piece of the Catechism that states ‘lying and calumny, good or just the end does not justify the means’, after repeating several false accusations against me.

I have reviewed this entire thread. I don’t think 1holycatholic or anyone else against forms of socialized medicine is advocating that we ignore our obligation to the poor and less fortunate.

What I have seen is people trying to balance solidarity and subsidiarity, which largely goes ignored.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have reviewed this entire thread. I don’t think 1holycatholic or anyone else against forms of socialized medicine is advocating that we ignore our obligation to the poor and less fortunate.

What I have seen is people trying to balance solidarity and subsidiarity, which largely goes ignored.

What I called the other poster on was false statements of what I had actually said, or asked.

There must be a balance or we’d have to question the statements of the Pope and the Vatican secretary of state. I have questioned this, but have not seen a reasonable explanation. How do we know if there is a balance or not in the minds of the men of the Church? Assumptions will not answer the question, for either side.

I don’t see answering the call from Christ to care for the sick, hungry or homeless as requiring so much red tape through His own Church. Others seem to be protecting government, which consists of ‘we the people’.

How can we look to the incompetent, or corrupted, government to stop abortion, because we believe it’s the will of God, but we can’t look to the same government to achieve God’s will in other areas?

 

[JimG]

No matter how much a nation might wish to pay for everyone’s health care, the fact is that a bankrupt nation cannot do it. A nation which is near bankruptcy will find its options limited to what is possible, not what is desirable.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No matter how much a nation might wish to pay for everyone’s health care, the fact is that a bankrupt nation cannot do it. A nation which is near bankruptcy will find its options limited to what is possible, not what is desirable.

This is a time a nation must view priorities in it’s debt and budget. If we agree on that, I believe we’ll see that no one agrees on priorities next.

 

[rlg94086]

So where do you read an overthrow in the government in attempting to provide health care for everyone?

I seek to maintain the teachings of Christ, others appear to save their money at all costs.

You said “whatever it takes,” so I was just having a little fun with you. A dictator could certainly provide you the healthcare program you want.

If you think my stance is to “save my money at all costs,” then you haven’t read my posts and don’t know me at all.

 

[JimG]

This is a time a nation must view priorities in it’s debt and budget. If we agree on that, I believe we’ll see that no one agrees on priorities next.

Entitlement programs already consume 62% of the national budget even before a new health care program is added. And national debt is at an unprecedented peak. It is unsustainable. We are likely looking at a prolonged period of recession or depression or inflation or a combination thereof. No nation is morally obligated to do the impossible, especially if in attempting to do so, it destroys the national economy.