3000 gods but only yours exists

[rossum]

Seriously? The thread descended to word games some time ago. The end must be close at hand.

Nope. Nobody’s mentioned Hitler or the Nazis yet. Ohh… Whoops.

rossum

 

[mattp0625]

A person who makes this argument seems to start with pantheism or relativism.
CS Lewis took these theories apart in Mere Christianity.

 

[Peter_J]

Define the universe as “All that exists”. Does your God exist? Now ask your question again: “Who made the universe?”

If you restrict the meaning of universe to the STEM universe of science, then you need to change your “who made” to a “what caused”. The answer might be the multiverse, colliding branes, strings or some other cosmological hypothesis. Ask in the cosmology department of your local university.

rossum

Perhaps the best question is, what counts as a religion? The idea that the origin of the universe could come out of a multiverse may be couched in scientific language, but in another sense it could be seen as a rival *religious *theory.

 

[Even_So]

You can believe in as many gods as you want. The gods are not important. Their main function in Buddhist scriptures it to applaud in the right places when the Buddha is speaking.

No god can attain enlightenment for you. It is something you have to do for yourself. Buddhism is an “enlightenment by works” religion.

rossum

Idunno if anyone has mentioned Ravi Zacharias, but if not please look him up. I would ask if there is any forgiveness in Buddhism?

 

[rossum]

Idunno if anyone has mentioned Ravi Zacharias, but if not please look him up.

I have read a little. His understanding of Buddhism is shaded by his Christianity. He looks for differences and asserts that the Christian side of the difference is better, using Christian sources to do so.

I would ask if there is any forgiveness in Buddhism?

Sin is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one, so there is no forgiveness of sin as such in Buddhism. On an inter-personal level forgiveness is a virtue.

On a more general level, actions have consequences in Buddhism and it is not possible to avoid the consequences of your actions. The best you can do is not to repeat unwise actions so you do not suffer the consequences again while repeating wise actions so you reap the benefits again.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.

– Dhammapada 1:1-2

rossum

 

[Shaolen]

Why not? It is perfectly possible to have an infinite number of predecessors. The number 0 has an infinite number of predecessors: -1, -2, -3, -4, … Given that in mathematics, the whole numbers are defined in terms of the succession operator: S then we have 0 = S(-1), -1 = S(-2) etc.

rossum

Because time would have to go through an infinite number of days to arrive at today.

 

[rossum]

Because time would have to go through an infinite number of days to arrive at today.

So, we have an infinitely old universe, which has plenty of room for an infinite number of days.

You claim an infinitely old God. How did your God arrive at today?

rossum

 

[808Catholic]

You can believe in as many gods as you want. The gods are not important. Their main function in Buddhist scriptures it to applaud in the right places when the Buddha is speaking.

No god can attain enlightenment for you. It is something you have to do for yourself. Buddhism is an “enlightenment by works” religion.

rossum

Why do you need to “applaud in the right places when the Buddha is speaking”?

 

[808Catholic]

Nope. Nobody’s mentioned Hitler or the Nazis yet. Ohh… Whoops.

rossum

Hitler and the Nazi party have nothing on the people who believe in abortion.

 

[Peter_Plato]

So, we have an infinitely old universe, which has plenty of room for an infinite number of days.

You claim an infinitely old God. How did your God arrive at today?

rossum

Actually you claim an “infinitely old God.” Christianity claims an eternal God – i.e., one NOT limited to time or within time.

Time is, then, not a constraint under which God is restrained.

This is where your Buddhism and its posit of an “infinitely old universe” runs into metaphysical issues. Don’t seek to avoid those by saddling God with them.

If you want to argue an infinitely old universe, then do so. You are deflecting from the issue by putting it on those who have no interest or need to defend it.

Big Bang cosmology is rather well-established and quite in line with the eternal God having created matter, energy, space AND time.

You are on your own Rossum.

 

[808Catholic]

On a more general level, actions have consequences in Buddhism and it is not possible to avoid the consequences of your actions. The best you can do is not to repeat unwise actions so you do not suffer the consequences again while repeating wise actions so you reap the benefits again.

So, to avoid “sin” is to avoid negative personal consequences. There is not moral guidance of what is or is not bad (sin) just a consequence to avoid??? Buddha does not look down upon “sin”???

 

[808Catholic]

So, we have an infinitely old universe, which has plenty of room for an infinite number of days.

You claim an infinitely old God. How did your God arrive at today?

rossum

Yet the Universe, by current scientific deduction, is only 15B years old; not even close to infinite.

 

[SuperLuigi]

An atheist friend of mine posted this

“there have been 3000 gods so far but only yours actually exists. The others are silly made up nonsense, but yours, yours is real”

Of course hes speaking sarcastically. What are good arguments to make against this. The idea that because many gods have been proven false over the years therefore God is false as well

Sure, people have believed in other gods. Of course, they were often (somehow) sexually involved with humans, among other practices like bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, incest and scandal.

Oh, and there’s the whole immolation and human sacrifice things as well.

The gods of yore sure did have strong appetites for primal human and animal indulgences, many of which are considered taboo if not a sure sign of mentally illness by today’s standards.

Not exactly a higher plane of existence, huh?

Also, anyone is free of mind to make anything their own “god”. In fact, the Church tells teaches from a more symbolic point of view that putting things in our lives before God could be considered a false god in a way.

So really, the argument of “there are so many gods” is linear and just an excuse to avoid deeper consideration. I’ve this to be a key value for those looking to avoid joining the Catholic Church.

 

[rossum]

So, to avoid “sin” is to avoid negative personal consequences. There is not moral guidance of what is or is not bad (sin) just a consequence to avoid??? Buddha does not look down upon “sin”???

There is no such thing as “sin” in Buddhism. There are actions. Actions bring results. Results can be good, neutral or bad. If you don’t want the bad results then don’t do the actions that cause them. If you want the good results then do the actions that cause them. “By their fruits shall you know them.”

This is cause and effect together with a knowledge of how the cause and effect works. Buddhism does not lay down laws; it offers advice on avoiding the bad consequences. The five rules for laypeople are not phrased as “You shall not…” but as “Avoid…”

• Avoid injuring living things.
• Avoid taking what is not given.
• Avoid sensual misconduct.
• Avoid false and malicious speech.
• Avoid intoxicants.

It is an error to assume that concepts specific to the Abrahamic religions carry over into Buddhism.

rossum

 

[rossum]

Big Bang cosmology is rather well-established and quite in line with the eternal God having created matter, energy, space AND time.

Big Bang cosmology refers to the STEM universe of science. Both you and I believe that there is more to existence than just Space, Time, Energy and Matter.

We both believe in a bigger universe than that. We both believe in an All-That-Exists (ATE) universe which contains more then just the STEM universe: angels, kinnaras, devils, gods etc.

The ATE universe is eternal in both Christianity and in Buddhism.

rossum

 

[Rau]

There is no such thing as “sin” in Buddhism. There are actions. Actions bring results. Results can be good, neutral or bad. If you don’t want the bad results then don’t do the actions that cause them. If you want the good results then do the actions that cause them. “By their fruits shall you know them.”

This is cause and effect together with a knowledge of how the cause and effect works. Buddhism does not lay down laws; it offers advice on avoiding the bad consequences. The five rules for laypeople are not phrased as “You shall not…” but as “Avoid…”

• Avoid injuring living things.
• Avoid taking what is not given.
• Avoid sensual misconduct.
• Avoid false and malicious speech.
• Avoid intoxicants.

It is an error to assume that concepts specific to the Abrahamic religions carry over into Buddhism.

rossum

It’s very vague. What guidance is offered on more complex situations - such as defence of self or others? Is there more depth?

Do Buddhists eschew all alcohol?

 

[Even_So]

I have read a little. His understanding of Buddhism is shaded by his Christianity. He looks for differences and asserts that the Christian side of the difference is better, using Christian sources to do so.

Sin is a Christian concept, not a Buddhist one, so there is no forgiveness of sin as such in Buddhism. On an inter-personal level forgiveness is a virtue.

On a more general level, actions have consequences in Buddhism and it is not possible to avoid the consequences of your actions. The best you can do is not to repeat unwise actions so you do not suffer the consequences again while repeating wise actions so you reap the benefits again.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with an evil mind then suffering will follow you,
as the wheel follows the draught ox.

Mind precedes all conditions,
mind is their chief, they are mind-made.
If you speak or act with a pure mind then happiness will follow you,
as a shadow that never leaves.

– Dhammapada 1:1-2

rossum

So many questions, apologies in advance

Well of course Ravi would be shaded, just as you are. He used to be Hindu. But sin is another name for evil, you could say synonymous, so only a Christian concept? The Christian faith is we need to be forgiven for doing evil. In Buddhism you do evil you just are expected to do it no more or karma will get you. What if you don’t care? You are free to live life in an evil way with no recompense except for the fact maybe someone will be evil to you? Do we enjoy the vengeance? Can we also be evil without getting our just desserts? How does Buddhism explain fairness? GOD explains it clearly. So there is no guaranteed penalty for being evil? In which case there is no guaranteed reward of happiness for being good, so where is the motivation to be good? Why do bad things happen to good people? Better yet, why life at all? We just plod along making the best of it; just surviving. Makes us no different than the animal kingdom, yet we are somehow vastly superior, except for that evil thing. (Myself excluded on the superior thing. And i don’t want to hear about cats being evil.) Killing humans is evil, how would it be any different than the animal world where it is considered survival of the fittest, which I feel we are headed btw. However, if we choose to follow GOD’s instructions, we have faith that we will be rewarded with eternal life, with new bodies and minds that will blow the socks (or whatever if u aren’t wearing any) off anything we have today, to live life like we were supposed to, with full knowledge of the world. That is only obtainable by forgiveness thru JESUS CHRIST. Christianity guarantees evil will be punished to the fullest extent of the law and will no longer be tolerated. Does Buddhism give us anything to match this?

 

[808Catholic]

There is no such thing as “sin” in Buddhism. There are actions. Actions bring results. Results can be good, neutral or bad. If you don’t want the bad results then don’t do the actions that cause them. If you want the good results then do the actions that cause them. “By their fruits shall you know them.”

This is cause and effect together with a knowledge of how the cause and effect works. Buddhism does not lay down laws; it offers advice on avoiding the bad consequences. The five rules for laypeople are not phrased as “You shall not…” but as “Avoid…”

• Avoid injuring living things.
• Avoid taking what is not given.
• Avoid sensual misconduct.
• Avoid false and malicious speech.
• Avoid intoxicants.

It is an error to assume that concepts specific to the Abrahamic religions carry over into Buddhism.

rossum

So from a Buddhist point of view, killing one to save ten is okay?

 

[Peter_J]

The ATE universe is eternal in both Christianity and in Buddhism.

Following up on that, do you believe there’s a being – or multiple beings for that matter – who’ve always existed?

 

[PRmerger]

There is no such thing as “sin” in Buddhism. There are actions. Actions bring results. Results can be good, neutral or bad. If you don’t want the bad results then don’t do the actions that cause them.

Is adultery, if it has no bad effects, neutral then?

Is adultery ok at the moment it occurs, because both parties are enjoying themselves immensely, and THEN, when (if) the respective spouses discover it?