3000 gods but only yours exists

[openmind77]

That’s the point of his argument, I think: if Christianity is (objectively) true, then a Hindu or Buddhist who is counting on reincarnation might be in for a horrible surprise…

This is true. I think many of us (Hindus, Buddhists, Christians) will be surprised to learn the truth after death. The trick is to learn about all kinds of possibilities, so as not be surprised. That means reading from all kinds of different sources (both religious and non-religious) without dismissing any out of hand.

If you’re making that claim for Catholicism, then you misunderstand what is taught. If a person commits sins with the intent of ‘gaming the system’ and ‘repenting’ at the last moment, then he’s not only committing the sins themselves, but one extra one: the sin of presumption. That one would not be forgiven (per se), and the plan would fall apart.

Obviously when I say he repents at the end, I mean genuine repentance. But are you saying that if a man commits sin with the intent of ‘gaming the system’ , he is lost for good, even though he genuinely repents ALL his sins (including the one of his intent) at the end?

 

[Gorgias]

Obviously when I say he repents at the end, I mean genuine repentance.

Yet, you have a problem with the notion. I might expect that this is because the notion of ‘karma’ is one of justice, not of mercy. In Christianity, by contrast, the focus is on God as merciful father, not accurate accountant.

But are you saying that if a man commits sin with the intent of ‘gaming the system’ , he is lost for good, even though he genuinely repents ALL his sins (including the one of his intent) at the end?

No; if he repents of his intent, then he is forgiven. (Yet, are we suggesting that he intended to repent of his initial intent all along? If so, then we’re still playing the same ‘game’ all over again… right? )

 

[openmind77]

Yet, you have a problem with the notion. I might expect that this is because the notion of ‘karma’ is one of justice, not of mercy. In Christianity, by contrast, the focus is on God as merciful father, not accurate accountant.

No; if he repents of his intent, then he is forgiven. (Yet, are we suggesting that he intended to repent of his initial intent all along? If so, then we’re still playing the same ‘game’ all over again… right? )

What happens if someone commits a trivial but mortal sin (like using contraceptives) and dies before he has a chance to repent? Where is the mercy then?

 

[Peter_Plato]

This is true. I think many of us (Hindus, Buddhists, Christians) will be surprised to learn the truth after death. The trick is to learn about all kinds of possibilities, so as not be surprised. That means reading from all kinds of different sources (both religious and non-religious) without dismissing any out of hand.

Why not just seek the truth without any insincerity or duplicity?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Feser need to read more Nagarjuna.

rossum

You are deflecting…

…I mean, even relative to absolutely every possible response you could have made.

 

[rossum]

You are deflecting…

…I mean, even relative to absolutely every possible response you could have made.

I was responding to a post consisting basically of a web link. I replied with a similar post.

rossum

 

[Abu]

openmind77 #246
The trick is to learn about all kinds of possibilities, so as not be surprised. That means reading from all kinds of different sources (both religious and non-religious) without dismissing any out of hand.

The problem with such broadmindedness is as Archbishop Fulton J Sheen has written: we “are suffering from tolerance: tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos.

“A person who can make up his or her mind in an orderly way, as a person might make up a bed, is called a bigot; but a person who cannot make up his or her mind, any more than one can make up for lost time, is called tolerant and broadminded.”

Bishop Fulton Sheen was not backward in coming forward:
“Religion has its principles, natural and revealed, which are more exacting in their logic than mathematics…the false notion of tolerance has obscured this fact from the eyes of many who are as intolerant about the smallest details of life as they are tolerant of their relations to God.

“Another evidence of the breakdown of reason that has produced this weird fungus of broad-mindedness is the passion for novelty, as opposed to the love of truth.” (Broad-Mindedness).

It is NOT a “TRICK” that we have to learn, but TRUTH, and then dismissing all else.
How?
“I am the Way the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” – Jesus of Nazareth [Jn 14:6].

And why should Jesus take precedence over all others?
The historian Eusebius in his Church history, 4.3, 1.2, tells us that writing about 123 A.D., apologist Quadratus cited those in his day who had been cured or raised from the dead by Jesus of Nazareth – prime witnesses – long after the miracles, crucifixion and death of the Son of God. No other religious founder claimed to be God and proved it – not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.

His miracles “were so frequent, the eyewitnesses so numerous, and the evidence so stark, that not even Christ’s enemies disputed the fact of their occurrence. Instead they ascribed them to the power of the devil, or defied Him to perform another one in His own favour.” (See Mt 12:24; 27:39-42;Jn11:47).Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 104].

The evidence of history which attests Christ as the Son of God, sent to redeem humanity, also attests, to this day, to His reality and His truths through the facts of the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, the medically attested miracles that take place at Lourdes, and the Eucharistic miracles.

 

[openmind77]

Why not just seek the truth without any insincerity or duplicity?

I am not sure where I suggested you should seek the truth insincerely or not to seek the truth at all.

In fact sincerely reading about all views of the afterlife (both religious and non-religious) is best. Most people read about their own religion and reject everything else out of hand.

 

[openmind77]

The problem with such broadmindedness is as Archbishop Fulton J Sheen has written: we “are suffering from tolerance: tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos.

“A person who can make up his or her mind in an orderly way, as a person might make up a bed, is called a bigot; but a person who cannot make up his or her mind, any more than one can make up for lost time, is called tolerant and broadminded.”

Bishop Fulton Sheen was not backward in coming forward:
“Religion has its principles, natural and revealed, which are more exacting in their logic than mathematics…the false notion of tolerance has obscured this fact from the eyes of many who are as intolerant about the smallest details of life as they are tolerant of their relations to God.

“Another evidence of the breakdown of reason that has produced this weird fungus of broad-mindedness is the passion for novelty, as opposed to the love of truth.” (Broad-Mindedness).

It is NOT a “TRICK” that we have to learn, but TRUTH, and then dismissing all else.
How?
“I am the Way the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” – Jesus of Nazareth [Jn 14:6].

And why should Jesus take precedence over all others?
The historian Eusebius in his Church history, 4.3, 1.2, tells us that writing about 123 A.D., apologist Quadratus cited those in his day who had been cured or raised from the dead by Jesus of Nazareth – prime witnesses – long after the miracles, crucifixion and death of the Son of God. No other religious founder claimed to be God and proved it – not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.

His miracles “were so frequent, the eyewitnesses so numerous, and the evidence so stark, that not even Christ’s enemies disputed the fact of their occurrence. Instead they ascribed them to the power of the devil, or defied Him to perform another one in His own favour.” (See Mt 12:24; 27:39-42;Jn11:47).Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 104].

The evidence of history which attests Christ as the Son of God, sent to redeem humanity, also attests, to this day, to His reality and His truths through the facts of the miracle of the Sun at Fatima, the medically attested miracles that take place at Lourdes, and the Eucharistic miracles.

There is nothing wrong in choosing Jesus over everyone else. But to imagine that your own religion is the only truth and that it gets everything right, will eventually lead to disappointment. That is why it is important to learn about all different views and evaluate them objectively - that does not mean accepting all of them.

I believe the Christ will be returning very soon, probably in the next couple of years. Many (including Christians themselves) will be very disappointed to learn from him that their Church or their scriptures did not get everything right.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I am not sure where I suggested you should seek the truth insincerely or not to seek the truth at all.

In fact sincerely reading about all views of the afterlife (both religious and non-religious) is best. Most people read about their own religion and reject everything else out of hand.

How would you know what “most people” do?

You don’t really know, do you?

Be honest.

 

[openmind77]

How would you know what “most people” do?

You don’t really know, do you?

Be honest.

I can surmise from the opinions they express that they have not really examined other religions and points of view that carefully. I could of course be wrong.

 

[Peter_Plato]

There is nothing wrong in choosing Jesus over everyone else. But to imagine that your own religion is the only truth and that it gets everything right, will eventually lead to disappointment.

Surely, this will ONLY be true for everyone whose religion didn’t get “everything right.” It won’t be true, by definition and necessity, for those whose religion did get everything right, correct?

That is why it is important to learn about all different views and evaluate them objectively - that does not mean accepting all of them.

I believe the Christ will be returning very soon, probably in the next couple of years. Many (including Christians themselves) will be very disappointed to learn from him that their Church or their scriptures did not get everything right.

On some level, there seems to be a bit of fear-mongering going on here. You make it appear virtuous to entertain vague fears about impending events as if the mere presence of those fears themselves are a kind if necessary “halo” around the love a person should have for the truth. Or that love of truth is only really present in someone when it is mixed with a bit of anxiety over what Jesus will say and do when he gets here.

I would suppose that if you come to know Jesus, read the Scriptures where his words and deeds are writ large and listen to what the Church he founded pronounces on things then I have no reason to believe we will be “very disappointed” – surprised and astonished, definitely, but I would never suppose disappointment. In any event, where you have gotten the idea of this novel and unexpected Jesus you seem to believe in remains somewhat of a mystery. Apparently, you are under the impression that the Jesus who will be coming “very soon” has revealed stuff to you that the Bible that tells about him in the first place “did not get everything right” about.

For one thing, Jesus’ words are that “no one knows the day or the hour” of his return, which means we have no reason to think your pronouncement on his return should be taken any more seriously than any other. For another, the fact that you are using a bit of fear mongering surrounding his return, though maybe well-intentioned, isn’t necessary to lead others to the truth. Those who seek and continue to do so will find. No need for holding over people’s heads vague allusions about “disappointments” and being found in error about things.

 

[openmind77]

Surely, this will ONLY be true for everyone whose religion didn’t get “everything right.” It won’t be true, by definition and necessity, for those whose religion did get everything right, correct?

No religion has gotten everything right

On some level, there seems to be a bit of fear-mongering going on here. You make it appear virtuous to entertain vague fears about impending events as if the mere presence of those fears themselves are a kind if necessary “halo” around the love a person should have for the truth. Or that love of truth is only really present in someone when it is mixed with a bit of anxiety over what Jesus will say and do when he gets here.

I would suppose that if you come to know Jesus, read the Scriptures where his words and deeds are writ large and listen to what the Church he founded pronounces on things then I have no reason to believe we will be “very disappointed” – surprised and astonished, definitely, but I would never suppose disappointment. In any event, where you have gotten the idea of this novel and unexpected Jesus you seem to believe in remains somewhat of a mystery. Apparently, you are under the impression that the Jesus who will be coming “very soon” has revealed stuff to you that the Bible that tells about him in the first place “did not get everything right” about.

For one thing, Jesus’ words are that “no one knows the day or the hour” of his return, which means we have no reason to think your pronouncement on his return should be taken any more seriously than any other. For another, the fact that you are using a bit of fear mongering surrounding his return, though maybe well-intentioned, isn’t necessary to lead others to the truth. Those who seek and continue to do so will find. No need for holding over people’s heads vague allusions about “disappointments” and being found in error about things.

I am not sure why there should be any fear associated with the Return of the Christ - there should be joy and anticipation instead.

Believing that your religion got everything right works fine as long as there is no authority like the Christ to correct that view. It is not just me who says that the Return will happen pretty soon (there is an entire separate thread in this forum that is talking about that). Again I don’t see anything to fear, but to be prepared. Knowing all possibilities is one way to prepare.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I can surmise from the opinions they express that they have not really examined other religions and points of view that carefully. I could of course be wrong.

I can think of one person about whom the Bertrand Russell quote in your signature is untrue.

---

“The whole problem with the world is that fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell

You (and Bertrand Russell, apparently) may be disappointed to have it pointed out to you that Jesus was certain of himself, so certain that went above the Law and the Prophets. A fanatic for sure, but also THE wisest person.

A “problem” for the world? I suppose he was, depending upon where in the world your alignments are.

What do you make of that?

 

[Peter_Plato]

No religion has gotten everything right

But YOU have and you would know?

 

[openmind77]

I can think of one person about whom the Bertrand Russell quote in your signature is untrue.

---

“The whole problem with the world is that fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.” - Bertrand Russell

You (and Bertrand Russell, apparently) may be disappointed to have it pointed out to you that Jesus was certain of himself, so certain that went above the Law and the Prophets. A fanatic for sure, but also THE wisest person.

A “problem” for the world? I suppose he was, depending upon where in the world your alignments are.

What do you make of that?

Jesus was not an ordinary person - he was divine, so unlike the rest of us, he does actually know the truth.

 

[openmind77]

No religion has gotten everything right

I don’t claim to get everything right and to know all the truth at all. I am sure I will learn a lot of new information when the Christ returns. I also expect some of my current beliefs will be corrected by him. I think it is advisable for everyone to expect the same thing or be quite disappointed.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus was not an ordinary person - he was divine, so unlike the rest of us, he does actually know the truth.

This is not correct. He doesn’t know the truth. He IS the Truth.

 

[Gorgias]

I don’t claim to get everything right and to know all the truth at all. I am sure I will learn a lot of new information when the Christ returns. I also expect some of my current beliefs will be corrected by him. I think it is advisable for everyone to expect the same thing or be quite disappointed.

In other words, you claim that you know the truth better than the Church which Christ founded knows it. That’s quite the truth claim to make…

 

[openmind77]

In other words, you claim that you know the truth better than the Church which Christ founded knows it. That’s quite the truth claim to make…

I never claimed to know the truth better than anyone else. I am just saying no one including the Church knows the whole truth. Unlike the Christ, the rest of us are all just human and will always make errors. Even the Holy Spirit can not make us imperfect humans know the complete truth.