38 hard questions for Bible Christians

[Prodigal_Son1]

Scripture has been around since Moses.
We are only to believe those whose teachings align with what the apostles teach in scripture for the perpiscuity of scripture doth not require a high level of genius lest the bible be worthless…i’ve shown you over and over it was meant for ordinary believers, how is it you still fail to see that?
and it was the HS who protected God’s revelation not the institute at rome.

I have said it is for ordinary believers. What you fail to recognize is the difference of instructions specifically to men of authority, appointed/ordained by Christ Himself or by those He appointed/ordained.

Your attempt to stigmatize the Catholic Church is noted, however it is not an honest attempt at discussion as it is to somehow demean.

AGAIN, if the Holy Spirit was truly the interpreter for every individual, we’d have no need of teachers. Christ spoke about the Holy Spirit and Spirit of truth guiding and teaching them ALL things, but He was only speaking to His Apostles when He said it. IT was NOT spoken to the multitudes, who at the time were ‘ordinary believers’.

The Bible being worthless is just something to say to cling to a private interpretation. The Bible teaches us the teaching the men of the Church were instructed to teach us and it gives us the sermons to the multitudes.

Your statement about a ‘high level of genius’ is not needed, is not taught in scriptures. In fact, Peter’s writing conflicts with that statement.

2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity, Amen.

I’m sure those Peter writes about felt they had a certain ‘level of intellect’, but Peter tells us it wasn’t enough to understand the scriptures properly.

The Catholic Church preserved the Bible to modern day. It is a Catholic book and can ony be interpreted by the Catholic Church. That gives ONE interpretation and not thousands to pick and choose from.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Scripture has been around since Moses.
We are only to believe those whose teachings align with what the apostles teach in scripture for the perpiscuity of scripture doth not require a high level of genius lest the bible be worthless…i’ve shown you over and over it was meant for ordinary believers, how is it you still fail to see that?
and it was the HS who protected God’s revelation not the institute at rome.

Look again at Nehemiah 8 and tell me how the scriptures were explained to the people, causing them to understand. Private interpretation is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

**Neh 8:1 And the seventh month came: and the children of Israel were in their cities. And all the people were gathered together as one man to the street which is before the water gate, and they spoke to Esdras the scribe, to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded to Israel.
Neh 8:2 Then Esdras the priest brought the law before the multitude of men and women, and all those that could understand, in the first day of the seventh month.
Neh 8:3 And he read it plainly in the street that was before the water gate, from the morning until midday, before the men, and the women, and all those that could understand: and the ears of all the people were attentive to the book.
Neh 8:4 And Esdras the scribe stood upon a step of wood, which he had made to speak upon, and there stood by him Mathathias, and Semeia, and Ania, and Uria, and Helcia, and Maasia, on his right hand: and on the left, Phadaia, Misael, and Melchia, and Hasum, and Hasbadana, Zacharia and Mosollam.
Neh 8:5 And Esdras opened the book before all the people: for he was above all the people: and when he had opened it, all the people stood.
Neh 8:6 And Esdras blessed the Lord the great God: and all the people answered, Amen, amen: lifting up their hands: and they bowed down, and adored God with their faces to the ground.
Neh 8:7 Now Josue, and Bani, and Serebia, Jamin, Accub, Sephtai, Odia, Maasia, Celtia, Azarias, Jozabed, Hanan, Phalaia, the Levites, made silence among the people to hear the law: and the people stood in their place.
Neh 8:8 And they read in the book of the law of God distinctly and plainly to be understood: and they understood when it was read.
Neh 8:9 And Nehemias (he is Athersatha) and Esdras the priest and scribe, and the Levites who interpreted to all the people, said: This is a holy day to the Lord our God: do not mourn, nor weep: for all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.
**

 

[AmericanJosiah]

AmericanJosiah,

I cannot rebuke all the points that you made as I am not as well-versed in the technicalities of Catholicism as others on this site, but I will say this:

You mentioned, “Some Catholics support abortion and use artificial birth control. Many Catholics don’t attend Mass.”

The Catholic Church does not say that either of these actions/thoughts are OK. These individual Catholics are taking too much of their own ‘opinions’ into control and shouldn’t rightfully be calling themselves Catholic.

Don’t judge the Catholic Church based on the downfalls of individual Catholics.

EXACTLY my point…

Several of the “rebukes” of Sola Scriptura were about what “SOME Protestants” think or say or do. My comments about Catholics was meant to convey EXACTLY what you are noting.

The rest of the “rebukes” weren’t about Sola Scriptura.

.

 

[crazzeto]

What on earth do you think David was speaking of if it were NOT God’s revealed scripture?

1 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified** thy word** above all thy name.

I’m responding to an old argument, appologies for that. But seriously:

(Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

AGAIN, if the Holy Spirit was truly the interpreter for every individual, we’d have no need of teachers. Christ spoke about the Holy Spirit and Spirit of truth guiding and teaching them ALL things, but He was only speaking to His Apostles when He said it. IT was NOT spoken to the multitudes, who at the time were ‘ordinary believers’.

The Bible being worthless is just something to say to cling to a private interpretation. The Bible teaches us the teaching the men of the Church were instructed to teach us and it gives us the sermons to the multitudes.

.

So when we ORDINARY people were given the COMMAND to right divide the word, it really meant don’t interpret scripture yourself that could be dangerous?

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,* rightly dividing the word of truth.***

So who can truly and rightly interpret Scripture?
The Word of God says that only those who are born again, only those with a strong desire, who are** diligent**, who are** pure and holy**, who are obedient, and prayerful are able to rightly divide the word of truth.
And so yes we depend upon the work of the Holy Spirit in all of those areas, the Spirit who gives us new life, the Spirit who plants in us the hunger for the truth, the Spirit who grants to us the diligence and who cleanses us from sin and drives us toward holiness, the Spirit who works obedience in us, the Spirit who prompts us to pray is behind all of these requirements and qualifications for the study of God’s Word.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I’m responding to an old argument, appologies for that. But seriously:

Do you for one moment NOT believe that scripture is true and living and God’s revealed word?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So when we ORDINARY people were given the COMMAND to right divide the word, it really meant don’t interpret scripture yourself that could be dangerous?

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,* rightly dividing the word of truth.***

So who can truly and rightly interpret Scripture?
The Word of God says that only those who are born again, only those with a strong desire, who are** diligent**, who are** pure and holy**, who are obedient, and prayerful are able to rightly divide the word of truth.
And so yes we depend upon the work of the Holy Spirit in all of those areas, the Spirit who gives us new life, the Spirit who plants in us the hunger for the truth, the Spirit who grants to us the diligence and who cleanses us from sin and drives us toward holiness, the Spirit who works obedience in us, the Spirit who prompts us to pray is behind all of these requirements and qualifications for the study of God’s Word.

You really can’t see that you pit scriptures against scriptures and together there appears to be contradictions can you?

Now, who was that particular letter written too? Is there a specific reason you didn’t want to share that the particular passage was written to Timothy? Timothy who was ordained and instructed by Paul himself. Or is that fact something not needed for the REAL context of the writing?

Where did you receive your appointment/ordination?

EDITED TO ADD: Where in Timothy does Paul refer to dividing the word of truth to mean scriptures?

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they grow much towards ungodliness.

Changed a bit in meaning when you add the next verse…

 

[myfavoritmartin]

?

EDITED TO ADD: Where in Timothy does Paul refer to dividing the word of truth to mean scriptures?

.

The word used there is LOGOS so whether he was suggesting rightly dividing Christ or rightly dividing the divine expression communicated in scripture both old and new testament. What else would you suggest he was talking about? dividing tradition???

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The word used there is LOGOS so whether he was suggesting rightly dividing Christ or rightly dividing the divine expression communicated in scripture both old and new testament. What else would you suggest he was talking about? dividing tradition???

Interpreting, or communicating the meaning of, scriptures/doctrines/teachings as a teacher would. This was a letter of instruction to Timothy and not everyone else. Like I said, numerous times, it benefits us to see those instructions, because we can see what our teachers are to teach us. Where the line stops, is when someone decides to assume the authority as Timothy was appointed/ordained too.

logos
log’-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

The letter itself, became scriptures, at a much later date. It was not the scriptures Paul was teaching Timothy. He was teaching Timothy how to ‘preach’ (orally) the word.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Interpreting, or communicating the meaning of, scriptures/doctrines/teachings as a teacher would. This was a letter of instruction to Timothy and not everyone else. Like I said, numerous times, it benefits us to see those instructions, because we can see what our teachers are to teach us. Where the line stops, is when someone decides to assume the authority as Timothy was appointed/ordained too.

The letter itself, became scriptures, at a much later date. It was not the scriptures Paul was teaching Timothy. He was teaching Timothy how to ‘preach’ (orally) the word.

This letter was instruction given to timothy and all believers and It was scripture the moment it was penned, even your church agrees to that.
Edited to add:
"But know this first of all that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This letter was instruction given to timothy and all believers and It was scripture the moment it was penned, even your church agrees to that.
Edited to add:
"But know this first of all that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Paul did not know his writings were scriptures from the moment he wrote them. The instructions to Timothy were authority instructions as Timothy was appointed/ordained by Paul.

Now, as per your scriptures example, yet again, if scriptures is not a matter of private interpretation when written, why is it a matter of private interpretation to read them?

Please respond to this question. Why does Peter warn about people wresting scriptures, even to their own destruction? You know very well, there are many interpretations of scriptures in the Protestant Churches. Those interpretations are slight to greatly different and all claim guidance by the Holy Spirit. How is the unlearned, non-believer, to know which is truly the correct interpretation with so many different interpretation?

What makes your interpretation infallible over all other interpretations?

You repeatedly deny the authority of a Church, yet you cannot do that from scriptures.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Please respond to this question. Why does Peter warn about people wresting scriptures, even to their own destruction?

This is a warning to all in our day who twist the Scriptures from their real meaning.
If you don’t follow what is clear in scripture it will be your demise, again this is a warning to ALL

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

2Pe 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

2Pe 1:20 No prophecy of the scripture is made by private interpretation; or, as the Protestants translate it from the Greek, is of any private interpretation, i.e. is not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit. (Witham) — The Scriptures cannot be properly expounded by private spirit or fancy, but by the same spirit wherewith they were written, which is resident in the Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This is a warning to all in our day who twist the Scriptures from their real meaning.
If you don’t follow what is clear in scripture it will be your demise, again this is a warning to ALL

This was written as a warning to the people in those times. It was not specifically written to a generation 2000 years later. However, if you wish to take that approach, tracking history, when did real wresting begin? It was one Church, one faith, until the Protestant reformation of the 1500s, then interpretations became subject to individual’s private interpretation. What was the result, thousands of denominations, with slight to great differences in teachings, all based on someone’s private interpretation and all claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit. Now, how is a ‘convert’ to Christianity to know that they are going to the denomination/Church with the correct interpretation?

You say if you don’t follow what is clear in scripture, it will be your demise and it’s a warning to ALL. Who has the authority to determine what is clear in scriptures when you have multiple interpretations, ALL claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Using scriptures, show us who has the authority on earth to determine the real meaning of scriptures.

 

[BrianH]

Paul did not know his writings were scriptures from the moment he wrote them. The instructions to Timothy were authority instructions as Timothy was appointed/ordained by Paul.

Now, as per your scriptures example, yet again, if scriptures is not a matter of private interpretation when written, why is it a matter of private interpretation to read them?

Please respond to this question. Why does Peter warn about people wresting scriptures, even to their own destruction? You know very well, there are many interpretations of scriptures in the Protestant Churches. Those interpretations are slight to greatly different and all claim guidance by the Holy Spirit. How is the unlearned, non-believer, to know which is truly the correct interpretation with so many different interpretation?

What makes your interpretation infallible over all other interpretations?

You repeatedly deny the authority of a Church, yet you cannot do that from scriptures.

But how am I as a unlearned person to know if CATHOLICS have the correct interpretation unless I personally interpret them??
You HAVE to personally interpret scriptures to know whether or not ANOTHER church is correct:shrug:

 

[BrianH]

I

The letter itself, became scriptures, at a much later date. It was not the scriptures Paul was teaching Timothy. He was teaching Timothy how to ‘preach’ (orally) the word.

Not true. The Catholic Church does not teach that.

. These books the Church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed to the Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

But how am I as a unlearned person to know if CATHOLICS have the correct interpretation unless I personally interpret them??
You HAVE to personally interpret scriptures to know whether or not ANOTHER church is correct:shrug:

You are taught interpretations, but it does start with your interpretations with prayer and reflection. Many of the things I bring up, were a result of my own questions once. I made the same mistakes of reading out of context that I see alot of people doing today.

I’ve told everyone, I was raised a Protestant. Once I was married, I wanted to know which Church my wife and I should attend. I went through the ‘mall’ of denominations and that’s when it hit me; there are many different denominations all with different teachings, all claiming guidance of the Holy Spirit. If I asked a preacher, teacher, a question about scriptures that I didn’t understand, there were some who answered not to worry about it? I thought, what kind of answer is that. So, I opened my heart to receive the answer. I witnessed the ‘prosperity’ gospel Churches, the Pentecostal Churches (some of which stated without the initial evidence of tongues people were bound for hell), once saved always saved Churches, the ‘anti-Catholic’ Churches, etc. etc. It was like trying to find a Church that fit my lifestyle. I wanted to serve God as He wants me to serve Him and wanted to fit my lifestyle to His will.

I researched, read scriptures and prayed. I was led to the Catholic Church. No human evangelized me. Once there, all those questions became answered and the Bible became much clearer.

Scriptures are clear about Christ building a Church, and that Church was built upon Peter.

Now, secular history and Church history affirms one Church. Secular history and Church history affirms the Protestant reformation of the 1500s. Believing in Christ and His love for ALL people, there’s no way He left generations of people in the wrong hands.

Reading scriptures, it’s easy to see there was meant to be one Church. All letters to various Churches contain the same teaching. Then if, as Protestants claim, all those letters were ‘circulated’. This only affirms the same message to all Churches.

Now, I read scriptures and when I have found myself in a position of ‘privately’ interpreting a passage, I compare it to the Church’s interpretation. When the Church offers an interpretation, I find I am in agreement with the Church. If it doesn’t offer an interpretation, I follow the Church’s teaching and read it in the tradition of the living Church.

In my research, I found the writings of the early Church fathers. It’s as I heard once, to know history, is to be Catholic.

Christ built a Church first. Then that Church became His tool for writing scriptures. Then that Church defined the canon of scriptures. And, that Church preserved scriptures to present day and was the source for the Protestant reformation to have scriptures. Logically, who is going to know that Bible better, those who took it in the 1500s without the traditions and started interpreting for themselves, or those who wrote, defined, preserved and delivered the word of God to us today?

Man tried building a tower to heaven once. God stopped their efforts, because there is no way to heaven but through Him, by giving them ‘tongues’ preventing them from communicating.

Years later, God used tongues to let everyone hear the Gospel in their native tongue.

Many interpretations of scriptures, that differ, are like the tower of Babel, separating men unto themselves so they can build a way to heaven. One interpretation of scriptures is the way for all to come to Him. There is only one truth and scriptures tell us to be of the same mind and judgement; to be of the same accord, to hold to the traditions taught, whether by word or epistle. We are told to take note of those that would cause ‘dissensions’. It’s common sense, for me anyways, thank God.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Not true. The Catholic Church does not teach that.

They do have God as their author. Paul wrote a letter to Timothy. Paul did not realize that he was writing scriptures. He did not sit down and think, I am writing scriptures, or God’s word. That does not mean they were not scriptures from the moment he wrote them.

When Paul refers to scriptures, and he does often, he is referring to the Old Testament scriptures, sometimes writing in the ‘New Testament’ very close to word for word what is written in the Old Testament.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Not true. The Catholic Church does not teach that.

Brian,

I don’t want to change the subject, but I have a question for a member of the Methodist Church. Which creed do the Methodist recite? Is it the Nicene or Apostles Creed?

 

[rev_kevin]

They do have God as their author. Paul wrote a letter to Timothy. Paul did not realize that he was writing scriptures. He did not sit down and think, I am writing scriptures, or God’s word. That does not mean they were not scriptures from the moment he wrote them.

When Paul refers to scriptures, and he does often, he is referring to the Old Testament scriptures, sometimes writing in the ‘New Testament’ very close to word for word what is written in the Old Testament.

Just a question. If Paul didn’t know he was writting Scripture, then who decided it was Scripture?