43,000 denomination source

[KathleenGee]

Hi Ben Hur,

Didn’t mean to single you out…just had responses.

There is talk out there for another dogma of Mary, Mediatrix of all graces…it is that Mary is the highest of God’s creation…she is not God…we know that.

She is like a bridge, a transmitter of grace, because she is most close to Jesus as His mother who gave Him His humanity.

They are not defining it in part because of the effect it could have on Protestants who are drawing closer into communion with the Church. I understand it and I know from my faith and devotion to Mary…it is not in anyway putting her on the same level as Christ, making her a co god…in Montfort Marian theology…all grace from Christ comes through His mother. His is hers…she only seeks the Lord’s will and that we all be saved.

About ecclesial community…you would have to get a catechism that would factually and accurately with nothing amiss of all the 7 sacraments. You would even have to study up in real life to hear testimonies of Catholics who live the 7 sacraments and all that this sacramental life has done for them.

The Church is both spiritual and hierarchical. The bishop is named in the letters. Those without bishops and the 7 sacraments have the Lord…but don’t have the structure like episcopal churches have. I know there is a Lutheran branch that is considered ‘church’ because it has a bishop.

My pastor told us Protestants in our country (we are not of Europe, the Old World and its history ever before us) do not have the 7 sacraments, it is very difficult for them to understand our faith.

I took a class on ecumenism by a bishop who was at the Vatican II Council and on the ‘committee’ for Ecumenism. He was the one who taught us the structure of Church, those other churches we identify with, and the category of those as ecclesial communities.

As you know, I attended a Lutheran Missouri Synod church …and I still call it that…for many months and experienced the Lord’s presence among them. I understood their church service, saw similarities, and saw their devotion to God and their community. In no way did I see their Christianity as inferior or anything like that…I saw them as brethren.

But I said before and say it again…it is just that they are missing out on alot more in Christianity.

 

[PRmerger]

Whew ! I am tired just reading the list.:coolinoff: Good thing Protestantism is not a church.

No doubt. No one here has been positing that it’s a church, though.

What’s being asserted is that without the voice of a leader (here, read: vicar), all you get is each man for himself, reading the Bible and interpreting it in the way that they see fit.

And it leads to…

chaos and confusion.

But you also had some confusion (varied views) from day one, not just beginning at 1500. But yes, certainly mushroomed.

And it is an obscenity, ben. An obscenity.

No one in the Protestant world can speak definitively for what SS means.
No one can tell me if baptism saves or is an ordinance only.
No one can tell me if divorce and remarriage is adultery or a sacrament.

You guys are wandering in the desert of chaos and confusion and won’t look for the leader to lead you to the promised land.

 

[benhur]

No doubt. ** No one here has been positing that it’s a church, though.**

What’s being asserted is that without the voice of a leader (here, read: vicar), all you get is each man for himself, reading the Bible and interpreting it in the way that they see fit.

And it leads to…

chaos and confusion.

And it is an obscenity, ben. An obscenity.

No one in the Protestant world can speak definitively for what SS means.
No one can tell me if baptism saves or is an ordinance only.
No one can tell me if divorce and remarriage is adultery or a sacrament.

You guys are wandering in the desert of chaos and confusion and won’t look for the leader to lead you to the promised land.

You are saying it is a church. Phil in post 421 had it put well.

For you to lump all P denominations under one banner and expect them to singular, be uniform, on all things as if they were one denomination , and when they do not, call it “obscene” is skewed.

That would be like me saying, " No one can tell me if the Pope in Rome is the only head Vicar of Christ or not in the non-P denominations (Catholic, Oriental and Eastern Orthodox etc.). and it’s each of these denominations for themselves, with no *one *leader, or *one *magisterium, interpreting the bible the way they see fit on this matter".

That would be skewed because they are indeed different denominations, but within each one they definitely can tell you if the Roman Pontiff alone is or is not the head Vicar of Christ.

So to within each P denomination they can tell you definitively about SS, or baptism, or marriage etc.It would be obscene if you also had 43,000 views on SS, or baptism etc., but you do not. I would think there are only a few views on most things,quite like when Jesus walked amongst theJewish nation. The only thing He might call obscene is getting something wrong but not diversity itself.

As far as P’s wandering in the desert, that is your opinion and I thank you for sharing. I can only say some churches, denominations, parishes, preachers , teachers, leaders indeed are in the dessert, almost dead spiritually. However, there is other proof in the pudding other than all agreeing to exact definition of SS, or baptismal immersion or sprinkling. Many P churches/denominations are quite alive spiritually and you would be hard pressed to see any difference in "life’’ between them and denominations you think are the oasis.

Yet, I understand and agree to the unfortunate reality of the divisions within Protestantism. It would be less obscene for many, say if you only had three banners, Catholic, the Orthodox, and the Lutheran (sorry Baptists).

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Hi Ben Hur,

Didn’t mean to single you out…just had responses.

There is talk out there for another dogma of Mary, Mediatrix of all graces…it is that Mary is the highest of God’s creation…she is not God…we know that.

She is like a bridge, a transmitter of grace, because she is most close to Jesus as His mother who gave Him His humanity.

They are not defining it in part because of the effect it could have on Protestants who are drawing closer into communion with the Church. I understand it and I know from my faith and devotion to Mary…it is not in anyway putting her on the same level as Christ, making her a co god…in Montfort Marian theology…all grace from Christ comes through His mother. His is hers…she only seeks the Lord’s will and that we all be saved.

About ecclesial community…you would have to get a catechism that would factually and accurately with nothing amiss of all the 7 sacraments. You would even have to study up in real life to hear testimonies of Catholics who live the 7 sacraments and all that this sacramental life has done for them.

The Church is both spiritual and hierarchical. The bishop is named in the letters. Those without bishops and the 7 sacraments have the Lord…but don’t have the structure like episcopal churches have. I know there is a Lutheran branch that is considered ‘church’ because it has a bishop.

My pastor told us Protestants in our country (we are not of Europe, the Old World and its history ever before us) do not have the 7 sacraments, it is very difficult for them to understand our faith.

I took a class on ecumenism by a bishop who was at the Vatican II Council and on the ‘committee’ for Ecumenism. He was the one who taught us the structure of Church, those other churches we identify with, and the category of those as ecclesial communities.

As you know, I attended a Lutheran Missouri Synod church …and I still call it that…for many months and experienced the Lord’s presence among them. I understood their church service, saw similarities, and saw their devotion to God and their community. In no way did I see their Christianity as inferior or anything like that…I saw them as brethren.

But I said before and say it again…it is just that they are missing out on alot more in Christianity.

Thank you. I would only add that at least here in the NE, many P’s do understand sacraments and their role say in Catholicism. In my church of around 800 members more than half were raised Catholic.(We have a lot of Italian and Irish and Spanish “descendants” moreso than NW).

Blessings

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Ben Hur…

I would go into your church and yes, I would experience the Lord among you…but we are all split up…like the 4 cars going out on Sunday…and not being able to have a genuine prayer gathering in our home.

As I told the Lutheran pastor last year, ‘Come Home!’ and he shook his head…and when the funeral came for my beloved deceased client, of whom I am missing alot still…the pastor ran back to get his homily for me to read as I told him I had to finish my seminar on the papacy…Mutual fondness.

I don’t if his congregation has a bishop; the former pastor would come in and take his place when he and wife had a new baby.

Having an episcopacy ensures continuity and overseeing our understanding of Christ.

Catholicisim has the fullness of faith in Christ…but it does not mean its pope or bishops or believers totally embrace the faith, we see that in history going back to St. Peter who was publicly rebuked for being a hypocrite…preaching one thing to the gentiles and living differently…

So for the former Catholics…they probably were in those parishes that became lukewarm…best word I can define.

I bowed at the Lutheran service during the Nicene Creed…the Incarnation…and it was the day a former Catholic came over to sit with me…the gesture greatly moved her and it is there she revealed herself to me where she was now…but of all the people there…she is the one with ‘Catholic’ eyes of the soul…

The point is to keep our eyes on Christ and not on people, including the pope, the bishops…if we do, we risk falling away…

 

[Memaw]

However, there are differences. In a discussion about denominational differences, you mentioned that some churches use music and others do not. If this is a denominational distinction, then among the Catholic Churches there are differences which are just as serious, if not more so, than playing or not playing music in church.
Some Catholic churches say the filioque in their creed, others do not.
Some Catholic Churches use leavened bread, others use unleavened bread.
Some Catholic Churches crown the married couple, others will not have the crowning ceremony.
Some Catholic Churches confer confirmation at the time of baptism, others wait later at about 12 or 13 years old.
Some Catholic Churches have only icons and not statues, others allow statues.
Some Catholic Churches do not use the guitar in their services.
Some Catholic Churches receive Communion with a spoon, receiving both the Bread and Wine at the same moment.
Some Catholic Churches will allow married men as priests, others not.
Some Catholics believe in limbo, others do not.
Some Catholics believe that the fires of purgatory are equal to the fires of hell, others do not.
Fasting regulations differ between Catholic Churches of different traditions.
Some Catholic Churches have an altar rail, others do not.
Some Catholic Churches allow Communion in the Hand, others do not.

Most people are going to say that these do not constitute denominational differences. Similarly, the differences that you have mentioned, such as whether or not to play music during church services, are not enough to define a “denomination.”
Since you have not adequately defined what you mean by a denomination and shown that this definition is acceptable to the parties concerned, any attempt to justify the number of denominations at 43000 is unconvincing.

The Catholic Church is NOT a denomination. It IS the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ over 2,000 years ago and as HE promised, will be here till the End of Time, quided by the Holy Spirit to NEVER teach error. The 21 Rites are NOT different churches. God Bless, Memaw

 

[benhur]

Catholicisim has the fullness of faith in Christ…but it does not mean its pope or bishops or believers totally embrace the faith, we see that in history

Right. That is why I posted that while doctrinally P’s may not be united but more formally, as Catholics are doctrinally united but informally diversified.

The point is to keep our eyes on Christ and not on people, including the pope, the bishops…if we do, we risk falling away…

Very good thank you.

I agree on the conditionality of our walk, as to keeping our eyes on Christ. Like Peter walking on water as he looked at Christ but sank as soon as he took his eyes off Him. We may differ here, but I carry that “conditionality” beyond individuals to leaders and magisterium, councils etc. Reception of perfect guidance should not be taken for granted and hence is always prayed for. But thank you also for honestly looking at Peter’s other incident that you mention.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

The Catholic Church is NOT a denomination.

Hi M,

The CC is certainly a denomination according to the source for the 43,000 P denominations.

“The Catholic Church has one hierarchy & authority, hence one denomination.” was also nicely posted (#41) by Phil.

However, I do understand the* CC teaching* that she is not a “denomination” in other respects but as you and she says , is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic true Chrurch, the original, real McCoy, from which all other churches derive from.

Blessings

 

[GKC]

Hi M,

The CC is certainly a denomination according to the source for the 43,000 P denominations.

“The Catholic Church has one hierarchy & authority, hence one denomination.” was also nicely posted (#41) by Phil.

However, I do understand the* CC teaching* that she is not a “denomination” in other respects but as you and she says , is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic true Chrurch, the original, real McCoy, from which all other churches derive from.

Blessings

Which shows the mutability of the term denomination, depending on who is defining it and for what purpose.

 

[Memaw]

Hi M,

The CC is certainly a denomination according to the source for the 43,000 P denominations.

“The Catholic Church has one hierarchy & authority, hence one denomination.” was also nicely posted (#41) by Phil.

However, I do understand the* CC teaching* that she is not a “denomination” in other respects but as you and she says , is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic true Chrurch, the original, real McCoy, from which all other churches derive from.

Blessings

Correction: all other denominations do not “derive” from the Catholic Church, they have separated themselves from Her and reduced themselves to self interpretation of the very Sacred Scriptures they took from the Catholic Church. Look around. Not hard to see what has happened because of it. It’s time to face the TRUTH. Jesus said, I AM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, don’t settle for anything less. . God Bless, Memaw

 

[Micosil]

Correction: all other denominations do not “derive” from the Catholic Church, they have separated themselves from Her and reduced themselves to self interpretation of the very Sacred Scriptures they took from the Catholic Church. Look around. Not hard to see what has happened because of it. It’s time to face the TRUTH. Jesus said, I AM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, don’t settle for anything less. . God Bless, Memaw

 

[Protestor]

It’s a case of using different countries one specific Church is present in, even if that Church belongs to the same collective organization, and the site points out why this is wrong.

Do they use different countries as different denominations for protestants as well? If this were the case the number of protestant denoms shrinks to around 150+. This shrinkage does assume a lot, but I’m not going to investigate a fleeting thought. From what I remember about this old study they also separate denominations based on worship type which most people would not.

By the merriam-webster definition ( a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices) I don’t really see a problem with saying that the CC is a denomination of the christian church, and for that matter your 21 different rites should probably be as well. If you want to claim that your 21 rights are the same denom fine that puts protesant denoms at 2000. If I am able to use a facile system of reduction.

The CC is the catholic church not the only christian church. You/we are a part of the real mccoy, you are not the only game in town anymore. In other terms
(catholic church)≡(christian church) or you may prefer ⇔ or IFF or these terms are not materially equivalent

 

[GKC]

Do they use different countries as different denominations for protestants as well? If this were the case the number of protestant denoms shrinks to around 150+. This shrinkage does assume a lot, but I’m not going to investigate a fleeting thought. From what I remember about this old study they also separate denominations based on worship type which most people would not.

By the merriam-webster definition ( a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices) I don’t really see a problem with saying that the CC is a denomination of the christian church, and for that matter your 21 different rites should probably be as well. If you want to claim that your 21 rights are the same denom fine that puts protesant denoms at 2000. If I am able to use a facile system of reduction.

The CC is the catholic church not the only christian church. You/we are a part of the real mccoy, you are not the only game in town anymore. In other terms
(catholic church)≡(christian church) or you may prefer ⇔ or IFF or these terms are not materially equivalent

" The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:

‘Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.’ "

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

The study is old in that it has been around for many years, but it is on-going and new figures are published regularly, based on the above definition.

 

[Tomdstone]

" The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:

‘Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.’ "

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

The study is old in that it has been around for many years, but it is on-going and new figures are published regularly, based on the above definition.

I doubt that the Roman Catholic Church consists of 236 denominations.

 

[phil19034]

Personally, I think it’s time to end this convo.

I think we can ALL agree that the methods used to create this ESTIMATE are flawed. Your nation doesn’t indicate your denomination. But it is just an ESTIMATE.

The real question is this: are the non-denominational communities each their own “denomination.”

I vote yes.

Therefore, there are thousands of them in the United States alone. But I have no idea how many world wide.

The 40,000 estimate might be accurate, or it might not. The number might be 80,000 in 5 years, or it might be closer to 20,000. No one really knows.

If you don’t believe the non-denominations are their own individual denominations, then the number is most likely in the hundreds.

God Bless.

 

[GKC]

I doubt that the Roman Catholic Church consists of 236 denominations.

As that source readily acknowledges, in the quote given. But it is their (continuing) sociology of religion/demographic/nationally centered study and they can define their terms as they wish. The point in discussing it, in venues such as this, is that their figures, derived from their definitions, are not applicable to the time honored topic of how many denominations are there, using some other definition of denomination.

 

[Memaw]

As that source readily acknowledges, in the quote given. But it is their (continuing) sociology of religion/demographic/nationally centered study and they can define their terms as they wish. The point in discussing it, in venues such as this, is that their figures, derived from their definitions, are not applicable to the time honored topic of how many denominations are there, using some other definition of denomination.

Are you sure you even know what your talking about?? God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Hi M,

The CC is certainly a denomination according to the source for the 43,000 P denominations.

“The Catholic Church has one hierarchy & authority, hence one denomination.” was also nicely posted (#41) by Phil.

However, I do understand the* CC teaching* that she is not a “denomination” in other respects but as you and she says , is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic true Chrurch, the original, real McCoy, from which all other churches derive from.

Blessings

The Catholic Church is THE Church founded by Jesus Christ and HE certainly didn’t call it a denomination!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[GKC]

Are you sure you even know what your talking about?? God Bless, Memaw

Frequently. And on this particular topic, I’ve known it for years. The organization in question defines “denomination” differently, for their own idiosyncratic statistical purposes, from most commonly accepted definitions you might find. It’s their study, they can define things as they wish. Folks who use the figures without knowing what they stand for can make egregious errors trying to compare apples and oranges, assuming that what they might use a word to mean is what the folks who do that study meant them to mean.

 

[benhur]

Correction: all other denominations do not “derive” from the Catholic Church, they have separated themselves from Her