5 women approved to preach

[PJM]

Assuming the article that was cited refers to the same event as the OP this is perfectly acceptable. The women will not preach at Mass – they will preach only in the absence of a priest or deacon. This indicates that they will be well trained to preach. I see no abuse here, nor any reason to be alarmed.

Deacon Ed

Hi Deacon,

As a fan of your post, I can’t recall ever disagreeing with you:shrug:

Perhaps, my recored will hold? But just what is you mean by “preaching” if it’s not at Mass?

If it is at a prayer service, teaching would be permited.

If it is a substitute mass: Communion service, it is not permitted, as this too is considered a homily.

I’m hoping you will clarify for me, so I don’t break my admiration streak for you.

Thanks Deacon…

 

[gelsbern]

I though baptism was the only sacrement that could be celebrated by a lay person??

Just to clarify things. The funeral rite is not a sacrament.

 

[PJM]

yes mam’! I was thinking MFVA in alabama but I think I would make a greater impact as a diocesan priest. I will be the priest that reads the popes letters and stuff during the homily. The only political thing i will preach during the mass is abortion. I think priests need to focus on the spiritual life in the pulpit not politics. If you want to carry on this conversation please PM me. I think we’re off subject!!

Son, God bless you!

You just got added to my prayer list.

 

[cameron_lansing]

Hi Deacon,

As a fan of your post, I can’t recall ever disagreeing with you:shrug:

Perhaps, my recored will hold? But just what is you mean by “preaching” if it’s not at Mass?

If it is at a prayer service, teaching would be permited.

If it is a substitute mass: Communion service, it is not permitted, as this too is considered a homily.

I’m hoping you will clarify for me, so I don’t break my admiration streak for you.

Thanks Deacon…

Let us both continue in our admiration for Deacon Ed.

Neither canon law nor doctrine should not be stretched. The administration of Holy Communion outside of Mass is not the Eucharist, by which the canons mean the celebration of Mass (see the distinction in canon 889 and vicinity). These are distinct situations. Indeed the distinction is clearly made in Holy Communion and Worship of the Eucharist outside Mass. It states explicitly “that the rite is used when Mass is not celebrated” (n. 26)

Therefore, the situations in which authorization is given by the bishop are quite within the norms of canon and liturgical law. It appears to me that he has circumscribed them properly.

When Holy Communion is distributed outside the Mass, the homily is not reserved to an authorized cleric by the canon 767 or by the liturgical prescripts. This would be true given the context since paragraphs 2 and 3 expressly reference the Mass. As well, Ecclesiae de mysterio, article 3 of the norms, treats the Eucharist homily. As to outside the Eucharist, it provides in n. 4, that “Homilies in non-Eucharistic liturgies may be preached by the non-ordained faithful only when expressly permitted by law and when its prescriptions for doing so are observed.” (vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html)

As a moderator of the ministry of the word (c. 756), the bishop has judged that the preaching of the Word is necessary in these circumstances and in accord with the complementary legislation on canon 767 of the episcopal conference (usccb.org/norms/766.htm)).

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The facts and circumstances seem to be these: “. . .met with the five parishioners to begin a one-year trial period in which the lay Catholics may preach in a priest’s or deacon’s absence. Preaching a homily during celebration of the Eucharist is reserved for clergy, but the lay people may preach at reconciliation or funeral services, a celebration of the Word or in other official situations as church representatives — with their pastor’s OK . . .”

Isn’t calling for the bishop’s head without knowing the facts as much of an abuse as some of the other things reported around here as “abuses?”

The problem is generic terms again instead of very specific ones.

To “Preach” can take place in different contexts, never at Mass, which you can’t have without a priest, never at a Comunion service with a Deacon.

Lay lead Communion services are never obligations or substitutions for Mass. You may arrive at a Communion service just in time to receive Holy Communion and then leave.

 

[turtle18]

Boy, I hope when I die, there will be a priest holding a funeral Mass for me. I’ll roll in my grave if a lay female gives a talk at my funeral service! I’ll also ask St. Peter permission to come back and haunt her

 

[StAnastasia]

But surely not at Mass?

Yes – the most recent one was by a theologically very well educated nun. She developed deep and prayerful exegesis of the first reading and gospel, and related them beautifully to the missionary work of her order. A theologically much sounder homily than things I’ve heard slapped together by some priests, including inappropriate and scarcely relevant jokes.

StAnastasia

 

[Beautiful]

Contact the Apostolic Nuncio in Washington DC and send a letter to the Vatican.

Your response is good, simple and appropriate.

My response was similiar to what I felt when I watched Stephen King’s Langoliers in the attack mode.

 

[Elizabeth502]

To “Preach” can take place in different contexts, never at Mass, which you can’t have without a priest, never at a Comunion service with a Deacon.

At our nearby liberal parish, Communion services in the recent past (for a period of at least 5 years) included an appointed female lay preacher, and sometimes a (different) lay female presider. This has stopped in the last 2 years or so, possibly the combination of a new pastor and a different bishop.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Yes – the most recent one was by a theologically very well educated nun. She developed deep and prayerful exegesis of the first reading and gospel, and related them beautifully to the missionary work of her order. A theologically much sounder homily than things I’ve heard slapped together by some priests, including inappropriate and scarcely relevant jokes.

StAnastasia

Then you’re lucky, but note a couple of things:

(1) The intent of a homily is to draw out meaningful spiritual connections for the congregation to “take away” (and apply). Most people cannot relate the day’s reading well to a well crafted message which has spiritual impact, unless they have had training to preach and/or have an unusual gift. (Some do, I recognize, but they are in the minority). So mostly it’s about training. It is not mostly about theology or exegesis. There are thousands of women with theology degrees out there – an awful lot of them lay women, some of them religious. But I’ve heard some of them preach at our local liberal parish, and so far they’ve been awful.

I’ll digress and say this is not a sexist view on my part: the only lay man I’ve heard preach (recently, same parish) was even worse than any of the women. His “homily” was a totally cold head-trip consisting of a lot of intellectual name-dropping. Major turn-off. Zero spirituality.

Digression #2: Training is best perfected by the live practice of preaching. By definition, this would tend to exclude lay (non-diaconate) men & women, as well as religious women, because they have no opportunity to preach “live.” Let me tell you, when a parish decides to “experiment” with me as a guinea pig, I feel ripped off. Maybe that’s a terrible attitude on my part, but I come there for spiritual nourishment, and when a priest is sitting in the sanctuary quite available to preach, but chooses to give a guest “an opportunity,” and that opportunity bombs, I feel that the priest has shortchanged an entire flock to satisfy one person.

(2) The above situations I’ve described are different from inviting a visiting missionary to speak (priest or female religious).

 

[Joannm]

There are many opportunities for a lay person to preach, but I guess it all comes down to how you define preaching versus giving a teaching, a talk, a reflection, or a presentation, and the context in which they are given the opportunity to speak. Preaching at Mass is a liturgical act, therefore, only those whose liturgical function it is to preach (priest, deacon) may do so. I am in total agreement with this.

However, at a non-Eucharistic prayer service there is no strict rule as to who may preach. I have been to Lenten prayer services where a different member of the staff has preached each week. I have been to parish missions where lay people are the preachers. I have been to lay led funeral services presided over by a lay person (no priest or deacon available) whose words were amazing. And, as someone pointed out, sometimes these lay preachers are better than many of our priests, and why should the people be denied hearing what these gifted preachers have to say?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I don’t know that I can answer your question, Joann, except to say that apparently you’ve had great luck and I’ve had lousy luck, when it comes to women leading actual services and/or preaching at those events.

OTOH, I have often experienced females to be far more effective at leading prayer itself (such as in prayer groups not connected with a ‘ritual’ event) – with their manner, their thoughtfulness, sensitivity to the moment, voice, cadence, what have you – than an awful lot of men. A few men have also been very effective in that role, but overall (as a group) not as much as women. Again, maybe this is a case of luck and is just random sampling.

Also, based on my experience there is no question that when it comes to mere presentations (such as speaking outside of a service on a religious or spiritual topic, or such as giving an academic lecture) women are unquestionably equal in ability with men. I have met many brilliant women on such occasions, and they absolutely captured their audience or class.

Hope I haven’t derailed the topic. Is there a definitive word on whether the “5 women” will or will not be preaching at liturgies?

 

[dans0622]

However, at a non-Eucharistic prayer service there is no strict rule as to who may preach. I have been to Lenten prayer services where a different member of the staff has preached each week. I have been to parish missions where lay people are the preachers. I have been to lay led funeral services presided over by a lay person (no priest or deacon available) whose words were amazing. And, as someone pointed out, sometimes these lay preachers are better than many of our priests, and why should the people be denied hearing what these gifted preachers have to say?

Hi Joannm,

I would only add that there are a few rules to keep in mind, even for non-Eucharistic events. Basically, whenever any preaching/teaching/reflecting of any kind takes place in a church or oratory, the bishop needs to approve the lay person in question. Since the location of this preaching tells people that the Catholic Church approves of what is being said, this permission is needed.

You can find this law in c. 766, which was quoted earlier, and in the complimentary norms for your country. The norms for the US were also noted earlier by Deacon Cameron.

Dan

 

[benedictgal]

Your response is good, simple and appropriate.

My response was similiar to what I felt when I watched Stephen King’s Langoliers in the attack mode.

The Papal Nuncio is not the route to go in this instance. Please note what Redemptionis Sacramentum says:

1. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
   [183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

The Apostolic See, in this case, does not mean the Papal Nuncio, whose correct term is Apostolic Delegate. The Apostolic See, for the puproses of the topic at hands, means the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

 

[Beautiful]

The Apostolic See, in this case, does not mean the Papal Nuncio, whose correct term is Apostolic Delegate. The Apostolic See, for the puproses of the topic at hands, means the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

All letters should be addressed to Antonio Cardinal Cañizares Llovera prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments?

There have been many more than five women approved to preach in the Diocese of Rochester, NY. This has been going on for at least twenty years. So far nothing has been done to stop it. I’ve watched it slowly spread. It has been like watching Stephen King’s Langoliers. Each time I hear that this is happening somewhere else I’m taken aback. How much longer and farther will the attack go?

 

[benedictgal]

Let us both continue in our admiration for Deacon Ed.

Neither canon law nor doctrine should not be stretched. The administration of Holy Communion outside of Mass is not the Eucharist, by which the canons mean the celebration of Mass (see the distinction in canon 889 and vicinity). These are distinct situations. Indeed the distinction is clearly made in Holy Communion and Worship of the Eucharist outside Mass. It states explicitly “that the rite is used when Mass is not celebrated” (n. 26)

Therefore, the situations in which authorization is given by the bishop are quite within the norms of canon and liturgical law. It appears to me that he has circumscribed them properly.

When Holy Communion is distributed outside the Mass, the homily is not reserved to an authorized cleric by the canon 767 or by the liturgical prescripts. This would be true given the context since paragraphs 2 and 3 expressly reference the Mass. As well, Ecclesiae de mysterio, article 3 of the norms, treats the Eucharist homily. As to outside the Eucharist, it provides in n. 4, that “Homilies in non-Eucharistic liturgies may be preached by the non-ordained faithful only when expressly permitted by law and when its prescriptions for doing so are observed.” (vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html)

As a moderator of the ministry of the word (c. 756), the bishop has judged that the preaching of the Word is necessary in these circumstances and in accord with the complementary legislation on canon 767 of the episcopal conference (usccb.org/norms/766.htm)).

Deacon, I greatly respect you; however, your response leaves me somewhat perplexed. One of the instances where the bishop is allowing these women to “preach” is at a “reconciliation service.” Why would the laity be allowed to “preach” if, at these reconciliation services, the priest would have to be there since they are the administrators of the Sacrament.

Furthermore, in the case of the funeral, the document issued by the Congregation for Clergy, The Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priest (released on August 15, 1997) specifically notes that:

Leading the Celebration at Funerals

In the present circumstances of growing dechristianization and of abandonment of religious practice, death and the time of obsequies can be one of the most opportune pastoral moments in which the ordained minister can meet with the non-practising members of the faithful.

It is thus desirable that Priests and Deacons, even at some sacrifice to themselves, should preside personally at funeral rites in accordance with local custom, so as to pray for the dead and be close to their families, thus availing of an opportunity for appropriate evangelization.

**The non-ordained faithful may lead the ecclesiastical obsequies provided that there is a true absence of sacred ministers and that they adhere to the prescribed liturgical norms. **(111) Those so deputed should be well prepared both doctrinally and liturgically.

Does the diocese in question have such a severe shortage in priests that a priest cannot come and celebrate a Mass of Christian burial for someone, or at least have a deacon come in for burial?

Furthermore, I can understand the issue of Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest; however, should these not be done on a regular basis and should not the faithful make a reasonable effort to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? I can understand if someone is living somewhere in the frozen tundra of the north or in a missionary outpost, but, in my opinion, even though what the bishop is doing may be licit, it is not well-though out.

 

[Pauly]

Yes, we’ve had homilies delivered by nuns (vetted by the authorities) with higher theology degrees; usually the preaching is about missionary efforts.

Up until about 5 years ago they used to try that around here too. Not sure how they went though and I would quietly leave and go to Mass elsewhere.

That wouldn’t happen today in my diocese, thanks be to God.

 

[benedictgal]

All letters should be addressed to Antonio Cardinal Cañizares Llovera prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments?

There have been many more than five women approved to preach in the Diocese of Rochester, NY. This has been going on for at least twenty years. So far nothing has been done to stop it. I’ve watched it slowly spread. It has been like watching Stephen King’s Langoliers. Each time I hear that this is happening somewhere else I’m taken aback. How much longer and farther will the attack go?

Yes, since he is the new Prefect for the Congregation. In the case of Rochester, was the CDWDS ever notified of this? If one simply went by way of the Apostolic Delegate, such correspondence would only find its way back to the local ordinary. If the bishop is unresponsive, then the complaints need to be forwarded directly to the CDWDS.

 

[Beautiful]

Yes, since he is the new Prefect for the Congregation. In the case of Rochester, was the CDWDS ever notified of this?

I can only say that this has been going on for twenty years. Think about that. Twenty years. No hiding. No shame.

We’re no longer in our own time ladies and gentlemen.

It’s really wrong here.

Something is waiting for you to arrive.

Its coming don’t you understand?

Something is coming toward us – rather nasty.

They are relentless.

The langoliers are coming.

And they are hungry.

I’m sorry if this dialogue insert from the Langolier movie is disturbing - I am feeling disturbed - a little like the blind girl in the movie.

 

[Beautiful]

You would never know anything was awry in the DOR but I know better. If you go to the DOR website and the various parishes there you would never suspect that lay women, men and women religious often give ‘reflections’ during the time measured for the homily. There was a time when some were foolish enough to publish their ‘reflections’ along side the priests on various parish websites but all that has come to a dead stop. So don’t try finding evidence on the internet. You will no longer find it. I can just about guarantee that wherever there is a woman religious and sacramental priest paired together at a parish you will find a woman religious gives a reflection in lieu of a homily by the priest. It isn’t like the priest can’t because he can. He steps aside for the woman religious. It isn’t always women religious doing this. Sometimes others get permission from the bishop to give a ‘reflection’. These people giving reflections are hungry and they want to talk. Don’t stand in their way or they will eat you alive. The power they hold is on a signed piece of paper with permission from the bishop. They have no qualms about eating up anyone that gets in their way.
Welcome to my twighlight zone.