P
Peter_J
Guest
Fixed that for you.
- Status
V
VitruviusPictor
Guest
Hello Pablope! You inspired me to sign up for CAF in order to answer this post.On a street intersection, there is Holy Rosary Catholic Church, there is a Grace Lutheran Church and there is a St. Mark Orthodox ChurchâŚif you stopped a person with a modicum of Christian knowledgeâŚand ask him to point out the protestant churchâŚwhich would he most likely point to as the protestant church?
And if you add an Anglican Church to the mixâŚI wonderâŚ
The Roman Catholic Church has claimed the title âCatholicâ, and so your average Christian knows that âCatholicâ means âRoman Catholicâ.
Are you saying that âCatholicâ in perception is essentially âCatholicâ in substance? If so, does this mean that the eastern âOrthodoxâ churches are the only ones that teach âorthodoxâ Christian theology? Do you think that when the âOrthodoxâ think of themselves before God, they do not believe that they hold to the âcatholicâ faith in its fullness?
The question you pose is more about perception than about substance. Most people know âCatholicâ means âRomanâ, just as âOrthodoxâ means âGreek or Russianâ. Are you willing to say that Romeâs theology is not orthodox, simply because people donât think of Roman Catholics as âthe Orthodox onesâ?
Lutherans call themselves evangelical catholics to be pedantic; for convenience, it is âLutheranâ. We take a certain joy in commending ourselves to that tradition, just as you do for your own and the âOrthodoxâ for their own.
God bless you.
P.S. To be on topic: Herr Luther truly said many nasty things, but this doesnât mean that every nasty thing attributed to him is true. No word about men - or a man - is inherently trustworthy except the written Word about the Son of Man, the Word of God.
E
EvangelCatholic
Guest
Welcome to CAF VitruviusPictor
P
Peter_J
Guest
Hi and welcome to the forum. But may I point out that âRoman Catholicâ is often short for âRoman-Rite Catholicâ.
P.S. You may be thinking âWell thatâs just how you Catholics use itâ, but Iâve seen it used that way by Eastern Orthodox many, many times as well.
V
VitruviusPictor
Guest
Thanks for the welcome.
Iâve always thought it was more fitting for the âRoman Catholicâ label to be used to refer to every Christian in union with the Bishop of Rome. âLatin Riteâ is the term for the Mother Church of the 23 sui iuris churches, who are all under Rome - and so they are âRomanâ. The other 22 consider themselves âCatholicâ because they believe that the wholeness (catholicos) of the faith is contained in unity with - and submission to - the Magisterium centered on the Bishop of Rome. That is the essence of your faith as I see it.
There is much technicality and terminology beneath the immediate rhetoric of labels. This is why I prefer to call myself a Christian first (in âreal lifeâ) and a Lutheran second (online). It doesnât mean that I believe myself to be un-orthodox in theology or non-catholic in my faith; itâs just simpler this way.
Personally, I think Herr Luther would be irritated by this. He had enough scruples about pride and arrogance without whole denominations being named after him! The man had his troubles, and his zealous temper drove much of the early Reformation. In a passionate moment, he said the Epistle of James wasnât really Sacred Scripture - a statement which he later withdrew and repented of. A fellow sinner like me. Nothing terribly outstanding, in the eyes of God.
P
Peter_J
Guest
I agree with much of what you said there, but not the highlighted. I believe that the pope ranks first among the bishops, but that doesnât mean that the Latin Church (or the Roman Rite in particular) is the âmotherâ of all of us.Thanks for the welcome.
Iâve always thought it was more fitting for the âRoman Catholicâ label to be used to refer to every Christian in union with the Bishop of Rome. âLatin Riteâ is the term for the Mother Church of the 23 sui iuris churches, who are all under Rome - and so they are âRomanâ. The other 22 consider themselves âCatholicâ because they believe that the wholeness (catholicos) of the faith is contained in unity with - and submission to - the Magisterium centered on the Bishop of Rome. That is the essence of your faith as I see it.
V
VitruviusPictor
Guest
Then I apologize for misrepresenting your Church or offending you! I was extrapolating from the fact that St. John Lateran is the âMother Churchâ of the Roman episcopal hierarchy. Since the Eastern Catholics have placed themselves under the authority of Rome, it seemed right to assume that they would consider Rome their âmotherâ in this sense.
Jerusalem, which is above and free, is our Mother. The Holy Church is the Mother of us all.
P
Peter_J
Guest
Oh donât get me wrong. I think a lot of Catholics would agree with what you said. I was just saying I personally donât.
P
pocohombre
Guest
Maybe God uses such folk as Luther to confound the wise and humble the proud. Half of our foundation (OT) the 12 brothers forming the twelve tribes that eventually gave us Christ, were scoundrels most of the time (or when untouched by the grace of God). Not sure Luther ever committed blatant murder and adultery, nor did he thrice deny Christ in the face of tribulation, nor did he lie and call his wife his sister, nor did he go unto aconcubine, as did many Godly biblical characters do amongst other things. Whatever he was , Luther was good enough to be a Catholic monk for quite a while. He was a product of Catholic upbringing and education.Here is an article I put together that itemizes some of the Martin Lutherâs most ridiculous comments. If you know a Protestant, please share this with them. Itâs important that we know where we come from.
Thanks
Per Crucern quoted me correctly, whereas you did not. I said the TERM protestant is meaningless.
Jon
P
pocohombre
Guest
Would you then consider the term "catholicâ as rendered meaningless ?
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
âProtestantism is one of the major divisions within Christianity. It has been defined as 'any of several church denominations denying the universal authority of the Pope and affirming the Reformation principles of justification by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, and the primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truthâ and, more broadly, to mean Christianity outside âof an Orthodox or Catholic churchâ.â
I think what you mean, Jon, is that to speak of Protestantism in any meaningful way requires great care and precision given the lack of uniformity in doctrine and style of worship, etc.
But the term is not meaningless.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Jon will respond for himself, but my opinion is that the word âcatholicâ still means universal whereas the word âCatholicâ apparently depends on who is using it!
Everybody wants to be called Catholic, but the folks who coined the term back in the first century are now headquartered in Rome.
P
Peter_J
Guest
Well ⌠yes, if you equate people with their physical remains after they die. Personally, I would say that those folks are now located in heaven.
Incidentally, youâre an adult, right? I think you are, but I just wanted to double-check.
S
steve_b
Guest
Yes.
Augustine noticed that in his day, everybody wanted to be called Catholic. So he wrote this.
- Augustine ~395 There are many other things that most justly keep me in her * bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.[Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1405.htm)
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Yes.
Augustine noticed that in his day, everybody wanted to be called Catholic. So he wrote this.
Things havenât changed. Some people today who arenât Catholic still, try to use Catholic in their name.
- Augustine ~395 There are many other things that most justly keep me in her * bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.[Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1405.htm)*
The very passage I had in mind. Thanks!
E
EvangelCatholic
Guest
If one believes that âeveryone wants to be called Catholicâ then they have no experience with Protestants. Even among Lutherans, who claim to be catholic, there are many who distance themselves from that term other than reciting the creeds. In-fact, an ongoing concern for some Lutherans is that the church is becoming âtoo catholicâ; this is especially evident in the ELCA when Apostolic Succession was re-introduced.
To be âcatholicâ in some parts of the U.S. is to be viewed with suspicion and perhaps derision; such as the rural Midwest and South.
To be âcatholicâ in some parts of the U.S. is to be viewed with suspicion and perhaps derision; such as the rural Midwest and South.
P
Peter_J
Guest
I would chime in ^^ here that you may be taking the word âeveryoneâ a bit too literally.
E
EvangelCatholic
Guest
Iâm just quoting Randy.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Too true.
However, when folks are pressed for some bona fides, they look back into history and try to find spiritual forebears who just werenât there.
Everyone wants to claim a connection to the apostles and the little âcâ catholic church of the early centuries, but their theological novelties force them to skip over the part where little âcâ catholic grew up to be the big âCâ Catholic Church.
- Status