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steve_b
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Then it should be simple. All I ask for is proof…in writing, with dates and author properly referenced. That’s not too much to ask for…right?
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steido01
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Ugh… :dts:
Sometimes it seems that Roman Catholics give a little German monk more credit than Lutherans do.
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steve_b
Guest
Sometimes it seems Protestants don’t give credit where credit is due.
Yep. Dramatically, historically inaccurate.I think you could easily get a dozen different answers to that question. For example, I doubt any Oriental Orthodox person would be very happy with that diagram. And, to some extent,** Lutherans probably wouldn’t either, given the way they are lumped under “Protestantism”.** (Btw, keep in mind that I didn’t read every post of this thread … sorry if I’m unknowingly repeating something said earlier.)
Personally, I guess I find the Eastern Catholicism portion of the diagram to be the most obviously problematic.
(I’m not even sure I want to touch Sariaru’s statement “The Eastern Churches were being schismatic way before it was cool and hip in the Reformation days.”uch: – but of course that’s not part of the original diagram anyhow.)
Jon
That’s accurate, if we recognize that most western non-Catholic communions/communities/denominations were not at the Second Diet of Speyer in 1529.
Therefore, they are not truly protestant.
It is the problem with the term protestant, and the fact that Lutheranism is so dramatically different than those now termed as protestant, those coming out of Calvinism, anabaptists, the Restoration movement, you name it.
Jon
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Peter_J
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Well as Jerry Seinfeld said to Izzy Mandelbaum (Lloyd Bridges) “I don’t know how official any of these rankings are.”
P.S. I’m assuming we all agree that calling Luther “the father of Protestantism” isn’t meant to deny the role of people like Jan Hus who came before him.
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Per_Crucem
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Sure…but as JonNC noted on another thread…the term “Protestantism” is (and always has been) almost utterly meaningless.
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Peter_J
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You may be right. On the other hand, I can think of some articles that might possibly change your mind. For example Putting the “P” back in “Anglican”
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ufamtobie
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Per Crucern
Meaningless? JonNC, is correct:thumbsup: because Protestantism should have never been.
Protestantism though “Utterly meaningless” is the very definition of all Protestant church established by man.
Ufam Tobie
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Peter_J
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Nice. roll eyes
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Perhaps from an Anglican perspective it still has some meaning, being associated with (in their view) Anglicanism being a more faithfully patristic faith than the churches in communion with Rome.
I think the problem is that Protestantism is defined as anything not Catholic. Well, that would include the Orthodox, no? Yet hardly anyone would involve them in that umbrella. If it’s to be seen as the churches that evolved during the Reformation, then we would say that the Anglican, Reformed and anabaptist groups had nothing to do with the Lutheran churches. Nor would we hold that our common faith is something specific to the Reformation, but is the true church catholic.
When a term can mean whatever the individual using it wants it to mean, then for all intents and purposes, it doesn’t really have a meaning. IMHO, the term should be dropped and just instead refer to the specific church we’re discussing, rather than grouping them together.
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pablope
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Well…let me ask you this, just curious as to how you would respond:
a). A person visits your city/town…and asks you for the nearest Catholic Church? Where would you point him to?
b). On a street intersection, there is Holy Rosary Catholic Church, there is a Grace Lutheran Church and there is a St. Mark Orthodox Church…if you stopped a person with a modicum of Christian knowledge…and ask him to point out the protestant church…which would he most likely point to as the protestant church?
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Novocastrian
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There are parts of the world where if you asked to be shown to a Christian church, the average local would not point you in the direction of a Roman Catholic church… Why should that impact your claim to be Christian?
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Peter_J
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I’d say that depends how well informed/educated the definer is. Most moderately well-informed people (Catholic or otherwise) would at least say that all Christians who aren’t Catholic or Orthodox are protestant – and that’s very nearly true, since the exceptions (like the PNCC, ACoE, and Old Catholics) are numerically very small.
I think the bigger problem is that most people (even the well-informed) tend to assume that “protestant” and “catholic” (note the small “c”) are mutually exclusive categories when they’re not – Anglicans and Lutherans are both “protestant” and “catholic”.
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benjohnson
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Protestor
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I like how everyone looked right past the article that I sent them to.
ufamtobie
Per Crucem
I think you should be a lot more distinct on what you mean by utterly meaningless and where are you applying this. Even if you are talking about just the term Protestant or Protestantism you are wrong unless you are subjectively saying you do not recognize it as having meaning for or to you. Second in the blue comment. Are you saying that there are Protestant churches that are not established man. If so which? I really think you meant that non are and this is so sort of mute question. It is just hard to try and figure out what you mean when your grammar is so bad, I do not mean this offensively mine is definitely be worse at times.
All christians, protestant or catholic, are going to heaven; the rest of the details are subjective. Please do not reply with some malarkey about how I need to be catholic, because I am not using protestant to mean not catholic or universal. I am a part of the church just as you may be(I personally do not know you) and to me a finite time in purgatory, if such a place exists, is insignificant when compared to eternity. I am supposing that being protestant will give me more time there, though I do not believe this to veracious.
I will only be on today so message me if you want me to see it in a few weeks and you cannot get back to me today.
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ufamtobie
Per Crucem
I think you should be a lot more distinct on what you mean by utterly meaningless and where are you applying this. Even if you are talking about just the term Protestant or Protestantism you are wrong unless you are subjectively saying you do not recognize it as having meaning for or to you. Second in the blue comment. Are you saying that there are Protestant churches that are not established man. If so which? I really think you meant that non are and this is so sort of mute question. It is just hard to try and figure out what you mean when your grammar is so bad, I do not mean this offensively mine is definitely be worse at times.
All christians, protestant or catholic, are going to heaven; the rest of the details are subjective. Please do not reply with some malarkey about how I need to be catholic, because I am not using protestant to mean not catholic or universal. I am a part of the church just as you may be(I personally do not know you) and to me a finite time in purgatory, if such a place exists, is insignificant when compared to eternity. I am supposing that being protestant will give me more time there, though I do not believe this to veracious.
I will only be on today so message me if you want me to see it in a few weeks and you cannot get back to me today.
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Protestor
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Ok I realize that my second full paragraph is a statement that I probably should not have posted. So please do not spend time refuting it until you have answered the questions in my first paragraph. This would be better for a offshoot thread and not on this thread.
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steve_b
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Just highlighting a few lines from what you wrote, who specifically are you addressing this post to?
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steve_b
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Not necessarily
In a broad sense, anything Re: religion, that is not Catholic would be non-Catholic. However, Protestantism, while being non-Catholic is getting more specific in definition as is E Orthodox which is also non-Catholic but not considered Protestant.
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Anything coming out of the 16th century Protestant revolt from the Catholic Church and holding to the tenets of the revolt going forward in time, is Protestant. That goes for the “1st apostolic evangelical full bible full gospel Church of Jesus of Nazareth” that popped up yesterday.
No Protestant group, regardless of stripe, or name, was started by Jesus, nor His apostles nor the Catholic Church they established. All these groups exist because their ancestors in their faith, revolted from that one true Church, Jesus established on Peter and the apostles, the Catholic Church, the chair of Peter. As Cardinal Newman, an Anglican convert to the Catholic Church wrote, “to be deep in history is to cease being Protestant”. The bible that Protestants say is their sole source of authority, condemns their division Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 . If I was a Protestant, knowing my history, and that condemnation aimed at me for being divided from the Church, I’d make a bee line for the Catholic Church faster than it took me to write this post.
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When a term can mean whatever the individual using it wants it to mean, then for all intents and purposes, -]it doesn’t really have a meaning/-] you correct them for their relativism and their error, by at least pointing them to a dictionary.
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pablope
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It had to do with the prior post:
*
I think the problem is that Protestantism is defined as anything not Catholic. Well, that would include the Orthodox, no? Yet hardly anyone would involve them in that umbrella. If it’s to be seen as the churches that evolved during the Reformation, then we would say that the Anglican, Reformed and anabaptist groups had nothing to do with the Lutheran churches. Nor would we hold that our common faith is something specific to the Reformation, but is the true church catholic.*
But what you said is true…someone would not point you to a Catholic church if one asked merely for a Christian church…in most parts.
But as I asked:
b). On a street intersection, there is Holy Rosary Catholic Church, there is a Grace Lutheran Church and there is a St. Mark Orthodox Church…if you stopped a person with a modicum of Christian knowledge…and ask him to point out the protestant church…which would he most likely point to as the protestant church?
And if you add an Anglican Church to the mix…I wonder…
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