500 Years of Protestantism: 38 Things Martin Luther Wrote

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robwar said:
Hitler didn’t use St. Ambrose and St. Chrysostom. Hitler based his 6 step plan to eliminate the Jews on Luther. Hitler likewise did quote Johann Eck who was Luther’s Catholic nemisis at the time and likewise very anti- semitic. The Catholic church has repeated condemned anti-semetism and does not promote it. The Catholic Church tried to save Jews during WWII. There is a Catholic Bishop Galen who repeated was out spoken against Hilter from the start. Except for a few isolated Lutherans, where was the outcry against Hitler? Luther was an angry man and his writings on a number of issues show it. While he is still revered as standing up to the big old bad Catholic Church, looking at what he actually wrote and taught and not sweep it under the rug is what should be done here. I once asked a Lutheran’s minister’s wife about the rather violent writings of Luther and if it bothered her. She told me that “well he was blunt and earthy, he was still an admired guy”
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Those who dared to speak out were a minority on both sides. But we must recognise that for all their doctrinal differences, the likes of Von Galen and Bonhoeffer bear common witness to the sovereignty of the God who is Love, in the face of the idols of race and Reich.
 
Interesting read. Learnt some things I didn’t know about Luther. But I think the way you wrote that he was a ‘very plain instrument of Satan to divide God’s people’ was harsh and uncalled for.
 
robwar said:
since both St Ambrose and Chrysostom were mentioned, one does have to realize that both were in the 300-400 where there was still a lot of conflict between Jews and Christians. St. Chrysostom spoke out against Christians that went to celebrate Jewish holidays. the style of speach at the time was to be forceful against your opponent. St. Ambrose spoke out against Christians being forced to rebuild a destroyed Jewish synogoge but he did have in his writings where he admired devote Jews in their practice. These two are a far cry from someone promoting death to all Jews like Luther did.
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They’re very alike, insofar as:
  1. All three men wrote things about Jews which would now be recognised as sinful, and which contributed to subsequent cultures of antisemitism.
  2. That all three were reacting to the disturbing apparent failure of the Jews to recognise their Messiah in the preaching and worship of their churches.
  3. All three are revered today despite, and not because of, what they said about Jews and the way they said it.
 
R_C said:
Maybe you should read the history of the Church again, and what the early Christians had to say about the bishop of Rome. Like, for instance, Irenaeus, who in AD 189 wrote:

1 John 1:10

And it is worthy to recall the words of Origen (AD 248) and Cyprian of Carthage (AD 251) on this matter:
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I haven’t seen that latter quote before. Could you give me a reference please? It looks like something that I ought to read.
 
Alizarin said:
What are you saying? That both faith communities are equally screwed up?

If so, maybe that infers something crucial about the nature of institutionalized religion
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I think it has more to do with motes…
 
EvangelCatholic said:
No doubt that Martin Luther wrote some things that make us all cringe, especially about the Jews. Luther was a man just like the man in the photo below who is praying in St Mary’s Cathedral [Lutheran] in Eufurt Germany where Luther was ordained.

Do you think the Pope would enter a Lutheran church to pray and later celebrate Mass in front of this cathedral if he thought Luther was an “insane heretic”?
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That’s a Catholic Cathedral; Diocese of Erfurt.

But I don’t think its fair to paint Luther as some quasi-hitler type person. We have some saints in the Catholic Church who have said and done some uncharitable things as well. For reconciliation we have to look at each other’s belief system and charitably dialogue. All of these things (Odd Luther sayings, burning of heretics, etc) that either side uses against the other only hinders any chance of union and goes against the sayings of Christ who prayed for unity of Christians. :cool:
 
CrossofChrist said:
That’s a Catholic Cathedral; Diocese of Erfurt.

But I don’t think its fair to paint Luther as some quasi-hitler type person. We have some saints in the Catholic Church who have said and done some uncharitable things as well. For reconciliation we have to look at each other’s belief system and charitably dialogue. All of these things (Odd Luther sayings, burning of heretics, etc) that either side uses against the other only hinders any chance of union and goes against the sayings of Christ who prayed for unity of Christians. :cool:
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Oops!

I double checked and you are correct.:o Erfurt is the spiritual home for Lutherans where they co-celebrate St Martin of Tours and Martin Luther birthday with Catholics on November 10th. Pope Benedict met with Lutherans in Erfurt and discussed the issue of removing excommunication of Luther at the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.
 
Oh dear,
Look at all of the soft Catholics out to defend their brother who are (With full knowledge) in heretical schisms.
Boo hop ecumenism…
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Oops!
Pope Benedict met with Lutherans in Erfurt and discussed the issue of removing excommunication of Luther at the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.
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I don’t know if that’s entirely accurate. When still a Cardinal, he said this:

*Since the Church’s jurisdiction naturally only
extends to the living, the excommunication of a person ends
with his death. Consequently, any questions dealing with the
lifting of Luther’s excommunication become moot: Luther’s
excommunication terminated with his death because judgment
after death is reserved to God alone. Luther’s excommunication
does not have to be lifted; it has long since ceased to exist.

However, it is an entirely different matter when we
ask if Luther’s proposed teachings still separate the churches
and thus preclude joint communion. Our ecumenical discussions
center on this question.*

On the latter idea, he answers that Luther’s teachings still do separate Lutherans and Catholics.
 
CrossofChrist said:
I don’t know if that’s entirely accurate. When still a Cardinal, he said this:

*Since the Church’s jurisdiction naturally only
extends to the living, the excommunication of a person ends
with his death. Consequently, any questions dealing with the
lifting of Luther’s excommunication become moot: Luther’s
excommunication terminated with his death because judgment
after death is reserved to God alone. Luther’s excommunication
does not have to be lifted; it has long since ceased to exist.

However, it is an entirely different matter when we
ask if Luther’s proposed teachings still separate the churches
and thus preclude joint communion. Our ecumenical discussions
center on this question.*

On the latter idea, he answers that Luther’s teachings still do separate Lutherans and Catholics.
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Thanks for this. The statement struck me as odd as well, simply because Luther is dead.
 
CrossofChrist said:
I don’t know if that’s entirely accurate. When still a Cardinal, he said this:

*Since the Church’s jurisdiction naturally only
extends to the living, the excommunication of a person ends
with his death. Consequently, any questions dealing with the
lifting of Luther’s excommunication become moot: Luther’s
excommunication terminated with his death because judgment
after death is reserved to God alone. Luther’s excommunication
does not have to be lifted; it has long since ceased to exist.

However, it is an entirely different matter when we
ask if Luther’s proposed teachings still separate the churches
and thus preclude joint communion. Our ecumenical discussions
center on this question.*

On the latter idea, he answers that Luther’s teachings still do separate Lutherans and Catholics.
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There are talks of some sort of symbolic gesture in 2017 including inter-communion; this is a particularly pressing issue in Germany.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
There are talks of some sort of symbolic gesture in 2017 including inter-communion; this is a particularly pressing issue in Germany.
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Where are you finding this information? I have a difficult time even thinking that that Catholic Church would join in a celebration marking 500 years of division. I would really be interested in your source.

Thanks.
 
Darryl_B said:
I do like the quote from scary goat in the comments to that article “I would have thought Church unity with Protestants is easy…they left…they can come back…sorted.”

It is really that easy, but unfortunately when protestants lay down their terms and conditions (which they generally do) it becomes slightly more complicated.
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It is that easy if, and only if, you already accept that Catholicity is nothing less and nothing more than communion with the Roman Pontiff and unreserved submission to his teaching. There are many of us who have reasons from Scripture and Tradition which preclude our doing that.
 
My point is that this unfortunate thread only points to division when, the reality, is quite different. My cousin, who recently entered a diocese RC seminary, sent me the reading list. Anyone familiar with Yves Congar? Catholics are encouraged to explore what is taught in your seminaries.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
My point is that this unfortunate thread only points to division when, the reality, is quite different. My cousin, who recently entered a diocese RC seminary, sent me the reading list. Anyone familiar with Yves Congar? Catholics are encouraged to explore what is taught in your seminaries.
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I haven’t read any Congar. I’m a big fan of Rahner (well, he can do good theology, but I’m not sure he can write; much like the other big Karl!) and von Balthasar.
 
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