500 Years of Protestantism: 38 Things Martin Luther Wrote

[Eric_Hilbert]

One of the hallmarks of the NCRs forum is one of respect and charity in inter-faith discussion. Far different than the “wild west” it used to be. There is a sticky above which gives the guidelines.
Go ahead and discuss the article, but do so in a charitable and respectful fashion.

 

[Protestor]

I hope someone read through the comments and didn’t just TLDR yolo this article.

I personally didn’t read all of the references yet but this guy seemed to have done his homework beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/p/luther-exposing-myth.html
this is a link directly answering most of the quotes

I am to busy with school to have read all posts so if this link was already posted my apologies

 

[steido01]

steido01:

Secondly, this particular post may be the single most foolish thing I’ve read today. Pietro, do you realize that the name “Lutheran” was a label attached to us by Rome? The Reformers called themselves Evangelical Catholics. For simple identification, we have adopted the originally prejorative label (like Chicago Bears fans calling Green Bay Packers fans “Cheeseheads,” and the Packers fans owning it).

A quick scan of the yellow pages in my area has revealed the following:

Grace Lutheran Church
Resurrection Lutheran Church
St. Philip Lutheran Church
Good Shepherd Lutheran Church

Well, you get the idea. So, you have simply “owned” the “prejorative [sic] label”? Why?

I’m not sure we’re disagreeing here, Randy. I thought I explained pretty clearly why today’s Lutherans use the title; for simple identification.

We don’t call ourselves papists or Romish just because these epithets (and worse) have been hurled at us.

Well, some of you do, actually. The term “Roman Catholic” was the Evangelical Catholic counter to those who called us “Lutherans.” In today’s world, the terms have more or less lost the bite they had in the 1500’s.

Augustinians, Dominicans and Franciscans take those monikers out of respect for the founders of the orders they join even though they would say that they ultimately follow Christ. So, I think it is pretty fair to say that Lutherans have embraced the spirit of Luther in much the same manner.

Sure. I think that’s fair to say of many of today’s Lutherans. We’re “Catholics of the Lutheran Rite.”

The problem now, however, is that evidence like that posted in the OP (and by Dave Armstrong and others) is pretty damning. But instead of disavowing the pathetic Luther, you have doubled down. Well, you own the whole truckload now.

See, this is what gets me. You can cut and paste a single sentence, joke or hyperbolic statement from just about anybody and make him into a Godless monster. With the exception of Luther’s comments on the Jews (which is a product of the times shared by many other Catholics of his day, anyway) there is really nothing in the OP’s list that is damning when enjoyed in the full context. A little bit of reading and history, and the list is rather foolish.

Knowing what we know today about the man, I would be embarrassed to be associated with him. But you wear his name with pride. I think that is very telling, frankly.

I style myself an Evangelical Catholic. I’m “Lutheran” insofar as the moniker is commonly associated with the beliefs of my communion. I don’t understand what you imply by your last sentence.

Yeah, this is like Planned Parenthood advocates trying to disavow the eugenics of Margaret Sanger. Sorry, but I’m not buying the argument. So, while I grant that individual Lutherans are not anti-semites or think the pope is the anti-Christ, etc., and that Lutheranism as a collective body may have also disavowed these things to varying degrees, the fact remains that Lutheranism was off track from the moment of its inception, and he set you on a path or trajectory that is off the rails to this day.

Your PP analogy is faulty; Lutheranism is not based off of a drunken monk’s ramblings. It’s the collective work of a movement, as recorded in the Augsburg Confession. I tried explaining this earlier. Perhaps the fault lies in my explanation…

 

[Novocastrian]

I was very interested to read the OP and the thread, and I have bookmarked the OP’s website and recommended it to others.

It’s ok, everyone makes mistakes.

A quick scan of the yellow pages in my area has revealed the following:

Grace Lutheran Church
Resurrection Lutheran Church
St. Philip Lutheran Church
Good Shepherd Lutheran Church

Well, you get the idea. So, you have simply “owned” the “prejorative [sic] label”? Why? We don’t call ourselves papists or Romish just because these epithets (and worse) have been hurled at us.

.

Acts 11.26 implies that ‘Christian’ may have originally been a derogatory term.

Augustinians, Dominicans and Franciscans take those monikers out of respect for the founders of the orders they join even though they would say that they ultimately follow Christ. So, I think it is pretty fair to say that Lutherans have embraced the spirit of Luther in much the same manner. The problem now, however, is that evidence like that posted in the OP (and by Dave Armstrong and others) is pretty damning. But instead of disavowing the pathetic Luther, you have doubled down. Well, you own the whole truckload now.

I respect and revere Augustine as a truly august father of the Catholic faith. That doesn’t mean he is beyond reproach on certain issues. Some of the things he said were pretty damning, such as sanctioning the use of force by the state to compel heretics to re-join the Catholic Church.

Knowing what we know today about the man, I would be embarrassed to be associated with him. But you wear his name with pride. I think that is very telling, frankly.

Today is the feast day of St. John Chrysostom. Do you think that everything he wrote was beyond reproach? And yet he is raised to the glory of the altars!

So, while I grant that individual Lutherans are not anti-semites or think the pope is the anti-Christ, etc., and that Lutheranism as a collective body may have also disavowed these things to varying degrees, the fact remains that Lutheranism was off track from the moment of its inception, and he set you on a path or trajectory that is off the rails to this day.

Then why the ad hominem attack on Luther. If your quarrel is with the substance of Lutheran theology, why not tackle that? Who attacks Nestorianism by going after Nestorius? Arianism by Arius?

Jesus founded one Church upon one rock, and Luther was not it. Period.

Find me a Lutheran (or anybody else) who says that he was!

 

[kmcarl56]

I am again so disappointed in the slamming and battering of Protestantism I see here at times.

For goodness sake, can we not agree to disagree sometimes? Can’t we all love the Lord *OUR *God with all our hearts, souls, and minds? Can we not love our neighbors, and even our enemies, as we love ourselves, as Jesus instructed us to? Christianity, in general, does not need any more divisions than those which have already occurred. I do not believe or care what other people write or have written that is not in accordance with the Bible in its entirety and with its full purpose.

My major was World Literature, and after writing what seems like thousands of essays and research papers, I know that I can take quotes from prior works to make my point, whether it is in agreement or complete disagreement, to make my thesis acceptable. Moreover, I am certain that I have written some pretty dumb analyses if I were to go back and re-read them now…after a little more life experience and knowledge of the world and its human condition.

Please don’t do this anymore. It just drives people away from Catholicism if they are to think that they would be so judged.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I am again so disappointed in the slamming and battering of Protestantism I see here at times.

For goodness sake, can we not agree to disagree sometimes? Can’t we all love the Lord *OUR *God with all our hearts, souls, and minds? Can we not love our neighbors, and even our enemies, as we love ourselves, as Jesus instructed us to? Christianity, in general, does not need any more divisions than those which have already occurred. I do not believe or care what other people write or have written that is not in accordance with the Bible in its entirety and with its full purpose.

My major was World Literature, and after writing what seems like thousands of essays and research papers, I know that I can take quotes from prior works to make my point, whether it is in agreement or complete disagreement, to make my thesis acceptable. Moreover, I am certain that I have written some pretty dumb analyses if I were to go back and re-read them now…after a little more life experience and knowledge of the world and its human condition.

Please don’t do this anymore. It just drives people away from Catholicism if they are to think that they would be so judged.

It also drives people away from the forum.

 

[ffg]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...anches.svg/500px-ChristianityBranches.svg.png

The Eastern Churches were being schismatic way before it was cool and hip in the Reformation days.

This is an interesting chart, thank you for posting it.

There is one big error though - Does anyone really think that ‘Early Christian’ just stopped?

There has to be one that stayed as the straight gray line.

Let’s find that one.

 

[kmcarl56]

I know, and that makes me want to cry. All I want in this world is to bring happiness, joy, and compassion to the people I meet. My main purpose for being a member of this forum is to learn and discuss Christianity openly, truthfully, and with love.

My heart breaks at the thought that if Christ came back right now, He would see such divisions and controversy over what He has commanded us to do. His words are not that hard to understand, not even His parables. They are stories with a moral purpose so that we CAN understand and apply His teachings to our lives the best way we know how.

My own salvation at this point is not what I am worried about. I am worried about those who cannot love, respect, and honor others in the way Christ intended for us.

My prayers are constant for those who do not know how to love the Lord with all their hearts, their souls, and their minds. These are lost souls who are in desperate need of our loving arms in hateful times.

May God be with you!

 

[ffg]

I appreciate your sentiment. Though I disagree with looking at the division that we can see in this site as negative. In order to learn, we must approach that which we do not know or understand. This almost certainly guarantees a disagreement.

If there was not division between religions, this site would be a bunch of Catholics debating what shade of purple should be used in advent (which probably occurs in another folder of threads I’m sure).

The civility here is genuine, even with a little fast back and forth sometimes.

Happyness in this world is fleeting. Not that it’s bad, it’s just not something we can count on.

If it was important, I think we would have seen more campfires and songs when Jesus taught.

What’s not fleeting is what is true.

 

[R_C]

For goodness sake, can we not agree to disagree sometimes?

Nope. There’s no agreement to disagree on truth. No compromise. Read St. Paul.

I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ… There must be no divisions among you; you must be restored to unity of mind and purpose. There are contentions among you. . . . every one of you saith: I am indeed of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided?

Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter. Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid.

Not very ecumenical, if you ask me.

And what did our Lord say?

If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault …] If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

We try to be as kind as we can in discussing these things, and the moderators already admonished us that we need to be more respectful and charitable. But facts are facts. No need to try to cry out for peace and unity when we are not the ones who caused division to begin with.

I personally have no interest in further participating in this thread, and I am glad to know about that website so I can learn more and maybe open a few people’s eyes. However, if you ask me, I stand with the Church Fathers who learned the faith from the apostles or their immediate successors, when there was no Bible as we know it. Read these, instead of Luther, and then agree to disagree with them, if you are bold enough to do so.

Heretical teachers pervert Scripture and try to get into Heaven with a false key, for they have formed their human assemblies later than the Catholic Church. From this previously-existing and most true Church, it is very clear that these later heresies, and others which have come into being since then, are counterfeit and novel inventions. (Clement of Rome, AD 90)

Let no man deceive himself. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the Bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Ignatius of Antioch, AD 107)

it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth.

Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church, those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father.

But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, [looking upon them] either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen away from the truth. (Iraeneus, AD 200)

The Lord says to Peter, “I say to thee, that thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not overcome it. It will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven. And what thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.” And He says to him again after the resurrection, “Feed my sheep.”

It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed.

If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith?

If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? (Cyprian, AD 250)

The church is rent into three factions, and each of these is eager to seize me for its own. The influence of the monks is of long standing, and it is directed against me. I meantime keep crying: “He who clings to the chair of Peter is accepted by me.” …]

As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. This is the house where alone can the paschal lamb be rightly eaten. This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. (Jerome - who put together the Biblia Sacra Vulgata - AD 376

Outside the Catholic Church…one can have honour, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church. (Augustine, AD 418)

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m not sure we’re disagreeing here, Randy. I thought I explained pretty clearly why today’s Lutherans use the title; for simple identification.

Well, some of you do, actually. The term “Roman Catholic” was the Evangelical Catholic counter to those who called us “Lutherans.” In today’s world, the terms have more or less lost the bite they had in the 1500’s.

Sure. I think that’s fair to say of many of today’s Lutherans. We’re “Catholics of the Lutheran Rite.”

See, this is what gets me. You can cut and paste a single sentence, joke or hyperbolic statement from just about anybody and make him into a Godless monster. With the exception of Luther’s comments on the Jews (which is a product of the times shared by many other Catholics of his day, anyway) there is really nothing in the OP’s list that is damning when enjoyed in the full context. A little bit of reading and history, and the list is rather foolish.

I style myself an Evangelical Catholic. I’m “Lutheran” insofar as the moniker is commonly associated with the beliefs of my communion. I don’t understand what you imply by your last sentence.

Your PP analogy is faulty; Lutheranism is not based off of a drunken monk’s ramblings. It’s the collective work of a movement, as recorded in the Augsburg Confession. I tried explaining this earlier. Perhaps the fault lies in my explanation…

I really do hear all of what you’re saying. I’m just not convinced. There isn’t a Resurrection Evangelical Catholic Church in town, but there is a Resurrection Lutheran…

So, let me try another angle. I’m not a huge NFL fan, but I lived in the DC area for many years, so my favorite team is the Washington Redskins. Now, I personally have no problem with the name of the team because I’m a college-educated, middle-aged, middle-class, white male. My only imperfection seems to be that I’m no longer a Protestant.

But in some quarters, the name “Redskins” is viewed as being politically incorrect, and so there is increasing pressure on the team and the owner to change the name. (One way to increase the pressure would be for the news media to simply refuse to use the name Redskins and to refer to the team as “Washington” exclusively in print and on the air until Snyder changes its. But I digress.) The name has a negative connotation, so it should be changed - or so the popular opinion goes.

I’m not one to give in to popular opinion (ask my family!), but these kinds of things are important to some people. Eventually, the name of the team will be changed.

Of course, this is not a perfect analogy for your situation. However, it seems to me that in modern times, unflattering information about Martin Luther has come to light. Consequently, I see no advantage in continuing to label yourselves as “Lutheran” when the name clearly has negative connotations.

Unless, of course, you are proud to be associated with him.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It’s ok, everyone makes mistakes.

And you accuse me of an ad hominem?

C’mon. Have you visited Mr. Gray’s website? Have you read his conversion story from agnosticism and prison to Christianity?

Find me a Lutheran (or anybody else) who says that he was!

Right. So, what is it about Lutheranism that is “of Luther”? It seems like Lutherans go out of their way to distance themselves from the guy…

You’re Anglican so that question doesn’t demand a response.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I know, and that makes me want to cry. All I want in this world is to bring happiness, joy, and compassion to the people I meet. My main purpose for being a member of this forum is to learn and discuss Christianity openly, truthfully, and with love.

My heart breaks at the thought that if Christ came back right now, He would see such divisions and controversy over what He has commanded us to do. His words are not that hard to understand, not even His parables. They are stories with a moral purpose so that we CAN understand and apply His teachings to our lives the best way we know how.

My own salvation at this point is not what I am worried about. I am worried about those who cannot love, respect, and honor others in the way Christ intended for us.

My prayers are constant for those who do not know how to love the Lord with all their hearts, their souls, and their minds. These are lost souls who are in desperate need of our loving arms in hateful times.

May God be with you!

And this is precisely why the separation of the Orthodox and Protestants from the Church Jesus founded upon Peter and the apostles must end. You see, Jesus prayed that we would all be one. Why?

John 17:20-21
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Our unity was supposed to be a witness to the world that Jesus has come from the Father. Instead, large groups have separated themselves from the Catholic Church and non-believers may be lost forever because of it. This is why I encourage all non-Catholics to return to the one true Church built by Jesus.

One flock. One Shepherd. One Body. One Faith. One Baptism.

Now, within minutes, you will see posts from Orthodox, Anglicans, and Protestants of all denominations making various claims and accusations and offering all sorts of justifications. Just go back and read Jesus’ words above again. Jesus built upon Peter the rock. Not Luther. Not Calvin. Not Henry VIII.

Peter.

Either you are with the successor of Peter or you aren’t.

The world is dying and needs to hear a clear message spoken by a strong voice. It’s time for all believers to speak as one. It’s time for all Christians to come home to the Church that started it all.

 

[Novocastrian]

Of course, this is not a perfect analogy for your situation. However, it seems to me that in modern times, unflattering information about Martin Luther has come to light. Consequently, I see no advantage in continuing to label yourselves as “Lutheran” when the name clearly has negative connotations.

Unless, of course, you are proud to be associated with him.

I think Lutherans are proud to be associated with him despite, not because of, some of the less savoury things he said. This seems to be analogous to the way that the Roman Catholic church continues to venerate the memory of the likes of Chrysostom and Ambrose, a point I have repeatedly made thus far. The Church today venerates St John Chrysostom despite some of the deeply disturbing things he preached against the Jews.

 

[Novocastrian]

The world is dying and needs to hear a clear message spoken by a strong voice. It’s time for all believers to speak as one. It’s time for all Christians to come home to the Church that started it all.

I completely agree with regards to unity in general. But the church that started it all is Jerusalem!

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think Lutherans are proud to be associated with him despite, not because of, some of the less savoury things he said. This seems to be analogous to the way that the Roman Catholic church continues to venerate the memory of the likes of Chrysostom and Ambrose, a point I have repeatedly made thus far. The Church today venerates St John Chrysostom despite some of the deeply disturbing things he preached against the Jews.

But we don’t call ourselves Chysostomists.

He is a lesser light in the Catholic pantheon, and the Church basks in the glow of many, many saints.

 

[Novocastrian]

And you accuse me of an ad hominem?

C’mon. Have you visited Mr. Gray’s website? Have you read his conversion story from agnosticism and prison to Christianity?
.

Sorry, I thought you meant the Luther list. His prison story was inspiring and I’d recommend most of that too! One of the things that I most admire about the Roman church is a real belief in conversion and changed lives. I aspire to a similar repentance; pray for me!

 

[Novocastrian]

But we don’t call ourselves Chysostomists.

He is a lesser light in the Catholic pantheon, and the Church basks in the glow of many, many saints.

You have churches and chapels dedicated to him. He is a Doctor of the Church. If that’s not enough, then look at Paul, Moses, David. We revere plenty of good men who said or did awful things!

 

[ffg]

Did I miss the memo that Humans were not sinners anymore?

 

[Randy_Carson]

But we don’t call ourselves Chysostomists.

He is a lesser light in the Catholic pantheon, and the Church basks in the glow of many, many saints.

Let me acknowledge that John Chrysostom, as a Doctor of the Church, is not a “lesser light”. I was thinking of the apostles at the time, but I should have considered a larger range of saints.

St. John Chrysostom, pray for me.