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Richardols
Guest
Stealing a pack of gum is not a mortal sin, abortion is a mortal sin. I was comparing mortal sin with mortal sin.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
richardols,
Stealing a pack of gum can be a mortal sin under the usual three conditions, as follows:
(1) Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent of ther person commiting the sin.
(2) The person commiting the sin must be aware that he/she is doing something in opposition to God’s law.
(3) The person commiting the sin must give personal consent to doing the sinful act.
However, mortal sins do not carry the same gravity, there is ascending ladder of gravity…abortion (murder) is one of the very worse sins we can commit, and the Bishops essentially made abortion equal to stealing a pack of gum–it is NOT.
Stealing a pack of gum can be a mortal sin under the usual three conditions, as follows:
(1) Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent of ther person commiting the sin.
(2) The person commiting the sin must be aware that he/she is doing something in opposition to God’s law.
(3) The person commiting the sin must give personal consent to doing the sinful act.
However, mortal sins do not carry the same gravity, there is ascending ladder of gravity…abortion (murder) is one of the very worse sins we can commit, and the Bishops essentially made abortion equal to stealing a pack of gum–it is NOT.
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Richardols
Guest
Utter nonsense. Stealing a pack of chewing gum is never the grave matter (CCC1858) that is one of the conditions to constitute a mortal sin.
You must be an unbelievably scrupulous person if you believe that.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
richardols,
Stealing anything is a grave matter.
Stealing anything is a grave matter.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Richardols,
CCC 2408
The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another’s property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one’s disposal and use the property of others.
CCC 2409
Even if it does not contradict the provisions of civil law, any form of unjustly taking and keeping the property of others is against the seventh commandment: thus, deliberate retention of goods lent or of objects lost; business fraud; paying unjust wages; forcing up prices by taking advantage of the ignorance or hardship of another.
CCC 1858
Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
CCC 2408
The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another’s property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one’s disposal and use the property of others.
CCC 2409
Even if it does not contradict the provisions of civil law, any form of unjustly taking and keeping the property of others is against the seventh commandment: thus, deliberate retention of goods lent or of objects lost; business fraud; paying unjust wages; forcing up prices by taking advantage of the ignorance or hardship of another.
CCC 1858
Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
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Richardols
Guest
No doubt. But, apparently, you haven’t heard about venial sins. The key word is grave matter.
Stealing even a ton of chewing gum from Walmart is a venial sin. Stealing one box of gum from a poor man in a country where such people eke out meager earnings by selling gum and such would be a mortal sin. There’s the difference - one’s a grave matter, the other isn’t.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
richardols,
Nope, you have a “grave” misunderstanding of “grave matter.”
CCC 1858
Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments
CCC 2409
…any form of unjustly taking and keeping the property of others is against the seventh commandment…
Nope, you have a “grave” misunderstanding of “grave matter.”
CCC 1858
Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments
CCC 2409
…any form of unjustly taking and keeping the property of others is against the seventh commandment…
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Richardols
Guest
No point in going around and around on this one. “All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.” I make a distinction between venial and mortal sins. You don’t. Fine. I expect that you find it necessary to go to Confession daily. I hope the graces such piety affords is of blessing to you.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
richardols,
I absolutely make a disticntion between mortal and venial sins. The difference between us is that actually follow what the Church teaches, and I have clearly posted appropriate passages from the Catechism to support my statements…though you seem to be ignoring those paragraphs because in your limited human opinion it is not just. Rather then reading the Catechism and Scripture, you choose insult me…fine I forgive you.
The simple truth is there are cases where stealing “anything” can be a mortal sin…the act of stealing is not always mortal, yet under the usual condictions stealing “anything” can be a mortally sinful act (it does not matter how much the item is worth).
I absolutely make a disticntion between mortal and venial sins. The difference between us is that actually follow what the Church teaches, and I have clearly posted appropriate passages from the Catechism to support my statements…though you seem to be ignoring those paragraphs because in your limited human opinion it is not just. Rather then reading the Catechism and Scripture, you choose insult me…fine I forgive you.
The simple truth is there are cases where stealing “anything” can be a mortal sin…the act of stealing is not always mortal, yet under the usual condictions stealing “anything” can be a mortally sinful act (it does not matter how much the item is worth).
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Richardols
Guest
And, I, presumably don’t follow what the Church teaches.
As opposed to your perfect opinion. You are a real piece of work, TJP. Holier-than-thou is one of the milder descriptions that comes to mind.
As I gave an example of above. You obviously were so in love with your own posts that you chose not to read mine. Why am I not surprised?
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TPJCatholic
Guest
richardols,
I posted actual proofs of what the Church teaches, and yet all you did was post YOUR opinion. I am no holy roller and when I say “limited human opinion” that clearly applies to all humans, not just you, and since I too am human it also applies to me (I honestly thought that much was obvious).
If person “x” walks into a 7-11 store with the intention of stealing a pack of gum, and if that person is aware of the proscription against stealing by God in the Ten Commandments, and if that person has no genuine need for that gum, then that is a mortal sin. I know in your opinion that is not just, yet God never told us that His proscription to not steal only applies to things we deem are grave.
We are commanded not to steal anything. Anytime we knowingly and willfully break a commandment we are commiting a mortal sin–unless there are extenuating circumstances to justify the action (example: a poor and starving person taking food is not a mortal sin, a rich person stealing food is a mortal sin).
The gravity of the situation is defined by God and His Church, not by us limited humans. The Catechism and Scripture makes this situation incredibily clear and as I said, in some cases stealing a pack of gum can be a moral sin.
BTW, the fact that Walmart has billions and will not miss a ton of gum is not what makes the matter grave…what makes something grave has been defined by God and His Church (as I posted)–all theft is grave matter (unless there are justifying circumstances as stated above).
I posted actual proofs of what the Church teaches, and yet all you did was post YOUR opinion. I am no holy roller and when I say “limited human opinion” that clearly applies to all humans, not just you, and since I too am human it also applies to me (I honestly thought that much was obvious).
If person “x” walks into a 7-11 store with the intention of stealing a pack of gum, and if that person is aware of the proscription against stealing by God in the Ten Commandments, and if that person has no genuine need for that gum, then that is a mortal sin. I know in your opinion that is not just, yet God never told us that His proscription to not steal only applies to things we deem are grave.
We are commanded not to steal anything. Anytime we knowingly and willfully break a commandment we are commiting a mortal sin–unless there are extenuating circumstances to justify the action (example: a poor and starving person taking food is not a mortal sin, a rich person stealing food is a mortal sin).
The gravity of the situation is defined by God and His Church, not by us limited humans. The Catechism and Scripture makes this situation incredibily clear and as I said, in some cases stealing a pack of gum can be a moral sin.
BTW, the fact that Walmart has billions and will not miss a ton of gum is not what makes the matter grave…what makes something grave has been defined by God and His Church (as I posted)–all theft is grave matter (unless there are justifying circumstances as stated above).
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Richardols
Guest
TPJCatholic said:
As I said in my example.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Richardols,
==> The problem with your position is that you seem to think that stealing a pack of gum is mainly relegated to venial sin status. While you have admitted that stealing gum can be a mortal sin, your example does not come close to addressing why such an action can be mortally sinful. Here is what you said:
*Stealing even a ton of chewing gum from Walmart is a venial sin. Stealing one box of gum from a poor man in a country where such people eke out meager earnings by selling gum and such would be a mortal sin. *
**
==> The mount of gum being stolen has nothing at all to do with the grave or mortal nature of the act, one pack is as big as a ton.
==> It makes no difference whether the person the gum is stolen from is poor or rich. Mortal sin is determined by examaning the heart and mind of the person commiting the act–not by the person that has been stolen from. If the person doing the taking knows that theft is against God’s law, and if he does so with full knowledge, consent and intent, then it is a mortal sin no matter whether the person he is stealing from is poor or rich. It is the theft that is grave, not the state of the person being stolen from. The fact that in one example the person being stolen from is poor simply increases the gravity. As I said before, all sins are not equal.
==> You are mixing-up the nature of gravity. Let us say instead of gum we are talking about oranges. Let’s say a starving person stole some oranges in order to survive…that is not a mortal sin. On the other hand, let’s say that a well fed rich person stole oranges just because he wanted to and he knew what he was doing, and had full knowledge and consent…that would be a mortal sin.
==> IMO many people have a very grave misunderstanding of what constitutes mortal sin.
==> The problem with your position is that you seem to think that stealing a pack of gum is mainly relegated to venial sin status. While you have admitted that stealing gum can be a mortal sin, your example does not come close to addressing why such an action can be mortally sinful. Here is what you said:
*Stealing even a ton of chewing gum from Walmart is a venial sin. Stealing one box of gum from a poor man in a country where such people eke out meager earnings by selling gum and such would be a mortal sin. *
**
==> The mount of gum being stolen has nothing at all to do with the grave or mortal nature of the act, one pack is as big as a ton.
==> It makes no difference whether the person the gum is stolen from is poor or rich. Mortal sin is determined by examaning the heart and mind of the person commiting the act–not by the person that has been stolen from. If the person doing the taking knows that theft is against God’s law, and if he does so with full knowledge, consent and intent, then it is a mortal sin no matter whether the person he is stealing from is poor or rich. It is the theft that is grave, not the state of the person being stolen from. The fact that in one example the person being stolen from is poor simply increases the gravity. As I said before, all sins are not equal.
==> You are mixing-up the nature of gravity. Let us say instead of gum we are talking about oranges. Let’s say a starving person stole some oranges in order to survive…that is not a mortal sin. On the other hand, let’s say that a well fed rich person stole oranges just because he wanted to and he knew what he was doing, and had full knowledge and consent…that would be a mortal sin.
==> IMO many people have a very grave misunderstanding of what constitutes mortal sin.
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rlg94086
Guest
Interesting. That’s about 34,000 packs of gum, which is grand theft. It’s not a mortal sin to commit grand theft, as long as the victim is a big corporation?
So, is killing a Walmart executive a venial sin as well? How about vandalizing a store?
I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry…
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Richardols
Guest
TPJCatholic said:
Yeah, that’s what the Fundies believe, too. They couldn’t fathom the nature of venial sin when I’d discuss it with them on their apologetics sites. To them, saying “Aw, sh*t!” when one banged one’s thumb with a hammer, damned one to Hell just a surely as if one stood up in church and cursed Jesus publicly. They didn’t understand the notion of degrees of grievousness.
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Richardols
Guest
Don’t confuse sin with criminal laws. In some states, theft becomes a felony when the value of the goods is more than $200, in some states the amount is less or more than that.
You’ve got me on that one. I don’t know.
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rlg94086
Guest
Based on that quote alone, I think TPJ has a better grasp on the differences between mortal and venial sin. You are right sin and criminal law should not be linked. Many sins are completely legal. However, I’m pretty sure that breaking a law is a sin.
Now, as far as venial or mortal, how is grand theft ever a venial sin? While the need for survival on the part of a perpetrator may be taken into consideration, I don’t believe the wealth of the victim is a factor in determining sin.
Robert.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
richardols,
Respectfully, you need to study this much deeply. Your understanding of mortal sin is woefully lacking. The Catechism defines the exact conditions that need to be present in order for any given act to be mortally sinful.
Let us take the gum example and examine it:
(1) Person “x” walks into a 7-11 store with the intent of stealing a pack of gum.
(2) Person “x” is very well aware that stealing is forbidden by God. Person “x” also knows that any breech of the commandments constitutes a grave situation.
(3) Person “x” intentionally, willfully and with full knowledge steals the gum.
That is a mortal sin…if you do not agree, then you need further study and prayer on this matter because God and His Church have made this very clear.
Now, if you take the example above and say:
(1) Person “x” was not aware of the commandments.
or
(2) Person “x” had no clue about what the Church teaches.
or
(3) Person “x” was being forced or coerced into stealing the gum.
or
(4) Person “x” does not have the mental capacity to realize what he is doing…
In any of those situations the act reduces to a venial sin.
Respectfully, you need to study this much deeply. Your understanding of mortal sin is woefully lacking. The Catechism defines the exact conditions that need to be present in order for any given act to be mortally sinful.
Let us take the gum example and examine it:
(1) Person “x” walks into a 7-11 store with the intent of stealing a pack of gum.
(2) Person “x” is very well aware that stealing is forbidden by God. Person “x” also knows that any breech of the commandments constitutes a grave situation.
(3) Person “x” intentionally, willfully and with full knowledge steals the gum.
That is a mortal sin…if you do not agree, then you need further study and prayer on this matter because God and His Church have made this very clear.
Now, if you take the example above and say:
(1) Person “x” was not aware of the commandments.
or
(2) Person “x” had no clue about what the Church teaches.
or
(3) Person “x” was being forced or coerced into stealing the gum.
or
(4) Person “x” does not have the mental capacity to realize what he is doing…
In any of those situations the act reduces to a venial sin.
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Richardols
Guest
Given how little you know me personally, the education I’ve received, and the degree of my knowledge of what the Church teaches, I’d say that you have nerve (I’d say something stronger, but I don’t care to have an Administrator suspend me) to say that to me.
Whatever the hell you do for a living, bud, it certainly doesn’t involve tact or respect for others.
And all three conditions must be met, especially “full knowledge,” which is where assessing mortal sin is particularly problematic. Few people, if any (IMO), make a careful examination of conscience before committing sin so that they may be certain of the degree of their culpability.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
richardols,
My opinion of your views as stated here is that you show a lack of knowledge or understanding about what constitutes mortal sin. That is my opinion based on things you have written here (I only have your statements here to form an opinion). As for education, none of that impresses me either way. There were a great many well educated men that rejected Christ when He walked this earth.
I agree that all three conditions must be met. It is very difficult to understand how you can argue with my example and yet still claim you understand what mortal sin is. However, I will repost it here:
*Let us take the gum example and examine it:
(1) Person “x” walks into a 7-11 store with the intent of stealing a pack of gum.
(2) Person “x” is very well aware that stealing is forbidden by God. Person “x” also knows that any breech of the commandments constitutes a grave situation.
(3) Person “x” intentionally, willfully and with full knowledge steals the gum.
That is a mortal sin…if you do not agree, then you need further study and prayer on this matter because God and His Church have made this very clear.
Now, if you take the example above and say:
(1) Person “x” was not aware of the commandments.
or
(2) Person “x” had no clue about what the Church teaches.
or
(3) Person “x” was being forced or coerced into stealing the gum.
or
(4) Person “x” does not have the mental capacity to realize what he is doing…
In any of those situations the act reduces to a venial sin.*
In my example the person knew what he was doing…and as I have said many times under the right circumstances stealing a single pack of gum can be a mortal sin.
BTW, I do apologize if I have offended you, it is certainly not my intent.
Jesus did not have tact when He said “go and sin no more…”
My opinion of your views as stated here is that you show a lack of knowledge or understanding about what constitutes mortal sin. That is my opinion based on things you have written here (I only have your statements here to form an opinion). As for education, none of that impresses me either way. There were a great many well educated men that rejected Christ when He walked this earth.
I agree that all three conditions must be met. It is very difficult to understand how you can argue with my example and yet still claim you understand what mortal sin is. However, I will repost it here:
*Let us take the gum example and examine it:
(1) Person “x” walks into a 7-11 store with the intent of stealing a pack of gum.
(2) Person “x” is very well aware that stealing is forbidden by God. Person “x” also knows that any breech of the commandments constitutes a grave situation.
(3) Person “x” intentionally, willfully and with full knowledge steals the gum.
That is a mortal sin…if you do not agree, then you need further study and prayer on this matter because God and His Church have made this very clear.
Now, if you take the example above and say:
(1) Person “x” was not aware of the commandments.
or
(2) Person “x” had no clue about what the Church teaches.
or
(3) Person “x” was being forced or coerced into stealing the gum.
or
(4) Person “x” does not have the mental capacity to realize what he is doing…
In any of those situations the act reduces to a venial sin.*
In my example the person knew what he was doing…and as I have said many times under the right circumstances stealing a single pack of gum can be a mortal sin.
BTW, I do apologize if I have offended you, it is certainly not my intent.
Jesus did not have tact when He said “go and sin no more…”
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