5th Marian Dogma

[SingleMomMonica]

Okay, I’ll stop after this, I promise.

I mean, Jesus Himself is the source of all graces, correct? Without Him, as a human, dying on the cross, there is no grace, correct? So, really, you could say that when God gave Jesus to Mary to raise, protect, feed, clothe, teach, etc. He was giving Him to her to give to us. So God gave Mary the source of all graces. God trusted Mary with His grace, trusted her to keep it safe, and raise it correctly, for us. I mean, she could’ve done something to prevent His sacrifice, whether it be being a negligent mother somehow when He was young and not keeping Him safe, or whether it be being a mother who loves her son being terrified of losing Him and trying to prevent it, or to protect Him against the sacrifice He must make. But she didn’t, and she wouldn’t have. She kept the source of all graces (therefore, all graces, really, there’s your teaching that’s been around since the beginning), safe in her possession, as God asked her to, for us. And then she gave Him to us, at the wedding at Cana. So . . . I guess I don’t see what the problem is.

The Source of all Grace (The Divine Energies) is the Most Holy Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit - Grace existed before, during and after Christ’s birth, life and death here on Earth. It is by Grace (The Divine Energies) that God created, sustains and saves the world and all who are in it. Although we will not be to become the Divine Essence of God, we will be completely deified by Him, becoming One with Him, united fully with Him through participation in His Divine Energies aka Grace.

 

[bookgirl32]

The Source of all Grace (The Divine Energies) is the Most Holy Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit - Grace existed before, during and after Christ’s birth, life and death here on Earth. It is by Grace (The Divine Energies) that God created, sustains and saves the world and all who are in it. Although we will not be to become the Divine Essence of God, we will be completely deified by Him, becoming One with Him, united fully with Him through participation in His Divine Energies aka Grace.

You’re right. I’m not claiming differently. I’m not claiming that God the Father gave Himself or the Holy Spirit to Mary. But we’re speaking in terms of our salvation, and the grace for that salvation is now available to us because of Jesus and His sacrifice, and only because of that. That is the analogy I’m making between “all graces” and Jesus Himself.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

You’re right. I’m not claiming differently. I’m not claiming that God the Father gave Himself or the Holy Spirit to Mary. But we’re speaking in terms of our salvation, and the grace for that salvation is now available to us because of Jesus and His sacrifice, and only because of that. That is the analogy I’m making between “all graces” and Jesus Himself.

Are you saying that in your mind:
“ALL” Graces means just those Graces necessary for Salvation and not truly “ALL” Graces?
If that’s the case, why not just drop the “ALL” thereby making it possible for “All” Christians to agree?

Mary really is a Mediatrix of Grace.

 

[Hesychios]

I don’t understand why it’s NECESSARY. Can somebody point out why it is NECESSARY to add this as Marian dogma?

Sycophancy?

 

[bookgirl32]

Are you saying that in your mind:
“ALL” Graces means just those Graces necessary for Salvation and not truly “ALL” Graces?
If that’s the case, why not just drop the “ALL” thereby making it possible for “All” Christians to agree?

Mary really is a Mediatrix of Grace.

I’m not concretely saying anything, I’m just turning the idea around and around in my head and kind of thinking out loud. I don’t really know for sure what I think about it, except that even if it were to be declared dogma, I would trust the Church.

I’m just trying to grapple with the concept of all vs. some. If it’s only some, what graces are okay, and what aren’t? Why is it okay that it’s only some and not all. I’m not trying to argue with you, I could even agree with you. I’m just feeling it out.

 

[Hesychios]

GOODNESS GRACIOUS!

What is Grace, actually?

Just for points of discussion, I will boost some words from a Catholic website without comment at this time. Does this fairly well represent the Latin Catholic understanding of Grace? Does it meld well with the understanding of other confessions, like the Lutheran, or the Orthodox?​

LECTURE FIVE. GRACE
Mindful that we cannot achieve our end simply by our own abilities, we need divine assistance. “Grace” is the theological term for this divine aid.

CCC #1996: “Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.” This lecture will consider the topic of grace under several headings: participation in the life of God, the indwelling of the Trinity, the types of grace (sanctifying and actual grace), the infused virtues, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

A. Some general remarks.

Grace is “a participation in the life of God” (CCC #1997). In one sense of the word, grace (“uncreated grace”) refers to the inner life of God as he communicates himself to his creatures. In the more familiar sense of the word as some benefit freely bestowed on creatures by God, “created grace” refers to the effect God produces in souls by his presence to them (especially as a kind of help in weakness or distress). In both cases, the function of grace is to make us capable of living a life that belongs properly to God alone but that He has chosen to share with us.

One can see this rather directly in a grace like faith, which gives us to know the reality of God’s existence and His love even though we have not seen God directly or come to know Him by any of the normal routes by which we come to know anything.

B. The Indwelling of the Trinity

In order to correct the notion that grace is limited simply to occasional divine assistance, it may be helpful to consider the doctrine of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and thereby the Trinity.

See John 14:16-17 and 14:23: “And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you… If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.”

See also 1 John 4:16, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 and 6:19, and 2 Timothy 1:14) for some of Scripture’s ways of expressing that God dwells in the soul in grace.

As the Council of Trent explained, those who fall into mortal sin are in dire straits for “after they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit, [they] have not been afraid to destroy knowingly the temple of God and grieve the Holy Spirit” (Decree on Justification, 7; Denzinger 799, 1528).

What does God do when dwelling within us? The most important thing is that He communicates Himself to us – He gives us a share in His nature and life by which our loves can be restored to the likeness of the Father that exists in Christ but that was disordered in us by original sin and compounded by each actual sin. As Thomas Aquinas notes, “By the gift of sanctifying grace, the rational creature is perfected so that it can freely use not only that created gift but enjoy the divine person himself” (Summa theologiae I, 43, 3).

Also…

C. The types of grace: sanctifying grace and actual grace

On the side of God, grace is one, but various divisions have been suggested by theologians for the sake of understanding better the mystery of God’s gift of supernatural life.

The primary type of grace is the habitual or sanctifying grace by which we are adopted as children of God and made heirs of heaven. It is called “habitual” because it abides within us somewhat like the habits that become second nature to us through our chosen activities, whether habits like piano playing or specifically moral habits like temperance and justice. Sanctifying grace is intended to be permanent as the bond of union between God and the soul but it can be lost by committing a mortal sin.

Actual graces are understood by analogy to sanctifying grace. These special aids from God in our moments of need and weakness help us to act as we should. These actual graces are related to the ways in which we freely choose to cooperate with God and testify to the need that even a just person has for special help from God to avoid sin and persevere in friendship with God. There is need always to pray for the grace of perseverance.

More…

 

[Doxiemom]

Mary was willing to participate in fullfilling the prophecy that the messiah would be born of a virgin. She loved her baby boy and it had to be torture to see her baby(mothers see their children in their hearts as babies no matter how old you are) to see her baby hurt so bad. She knew why it had to happen. She pondered it in her heart.

She should be well honored. That is Scriptural. None other like her ever.

And that is it. End of story.

 

[marymol]

Today , the last day of the 10th month, specially devoted to our Mother, may be a good day to get involved in this discussion ; as many know, today is also a day when many invite in or call on powers set against God , in their ignorance and misuse of freedom or even from hardness of hearts - Book of Lamentations tell us -’ He gave them hardness of heart as a curse ’ - our state when His mercy and goodness is rejected and thus withdrawn !

Being rather new to this horizon and proposed dogma , the invitation to be led into wider grasp of the ever present truths , there was a time, till recently when I too used to wonder - why another dogma …

Controversy over same and recognising that people of authority and wisdom that are trustworthy are out there to even face ridicule ( and thus be blessed too ! ) for this has made me to look more into same , with concerns very similar to what has been voiced here ( and no connection here with Vox Populi either , just happened to note that they are based from Santa Barbara , a place may be where God’s power against evil and lies need to be truly invited and pleaded in , with all trust !)

christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/5thdogma/aponte.htm

The above talk by Cardinal Aponte can answer much , esp. the words about the need to invite in The Mother …like at the wedding at Cana …they would have known who Bl.Mother is …and so has the previous Dogmas helped the faithful to know who our Mother is …her singular and special role …that thus serves to maginify who our Lord is, to help us to use our freedom to trust in Him more and Her God given role , to help us in all these areas …in a world that has ever wanted to sweep away that truth … such as , how our own lives are very precious to our Father and how Incarnation is the one truth that swallows up all the enemy’s ploys to discredit this truth.

Has the world taken in this truth of the marriage of the divinity and humanity well enough …do the statistics and news events tell us otherwise …even nations with long standing history of supposed devotion to The Mother , have they too fallen for the
flood waters of hatred against human life …

Thus the need to invite in The Mother …esp. with the power of The Church , to foster the freedom for the children to trust in her role and thus In Him …even and esp. in the midst of so much darkness …that even for those who seem to belong to wrong powers , even those powers are subject to Him and His appointed authority …yet , we too have to use our Goldy freedom to do so with trust …for God does respect our freedom …

And may be the better emphasis need to be in the wordings on our Mother as Mother of all humanity …had to struggle with that concept and truth …yet , as the above talk clarifies , it is redemption that was brought forth through her role that Eve on down was granted heaven …and next time when we come across someone of another faith, someone who is so very , very little , even yet not born … if the first and predominant thought in our heart is 'his / her Mother is ’ …how diffrent this world could be …

Does our Father want any less for us …

Thank God for the Holy Spirit inspired courage and efforts of our leaders !

 

[Janet1983]

#969 p. 252
I found it in the index under Mary, mediatrix of grace…

Glad you found a reference, I couldn’t.

Janet1983;5880517:

Here is Lumen Gentium

62:
I’ve read both quotes you reference from both the CCC & LG; however, neither state what the 5th Marian Dogma says - neither claim that Mary is the Mediatrix of ALL Grace.

Both indicate that it is because she said “Let it be done to me according to your word” - her “Yes” to God - that she mediated for the rest of humanity. That is true…but to expound that to mean that she is the Mediatrix of ALL Grace - that no Grace comes to humanity from God, but that God through Christ (the 1 mediator) only gives All His Grace to Mary and that she dispenses it to the rest of humanity is not found in your references to the CCC nor the LG.

(personally, I think it is not found there because it is not true)

Well that is all I could find in the index of my CCC… Under M I found “Mary” and among the subcatregories for her I found “mediatrix of grace” with the reference to said number… That’s all I could find. I am not home right now and cannot access the CCC physically…

 

[Good_Fella]

Regarding your other post; the Orthodox wouldn’t accept that mediatrix of all grace is a revealed truth. It is an abstraction from other western theology.

Is that so? :coffeeread:

“With the Mediator you are the Mediatrix of the entire world.”
Ephraem of Syria

“Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace.”
Theodotus of Ancrya

“The Virgin’s festival parthenik panegyris] incites our tongue today to herald her praise…handmaid and Mother, Virgin and heaven, the only bridge of God to men.”
Proclus of Constantinople

“O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honourable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us.”
Basil of Seleucia

“Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God.”
Theoteknos of Livias

“Mary the Ever-Virgin – radiant with divine light and full of grace, mediatrix first through her supernatural birth and now because of her maternal assistance – be crowned with never ending blessings…seeking balance and fittingness in all things, we should make our way honestly, as sons of light.”
Germanus of Constantinople

“O, how marvelous it is! She acts as mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes the Mother of the Creator.”
Andrew of Crete

“She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim, exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God.”
John of Damascene

The invocation of Mary as Mediatrix of all grace - the grace that originates from the Son and is channeled to us through Mary’s merciful intercession in heaven - belongs to a sacred tradition of the eastern churches as well. This tradition began in apostolic time.

“How can this be, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.”
Luke 1, 43-44

John the Baptist was sanctified by the Source of all grace in his mother’s womb through Mary’s mediation. :yup:

PAX :harp:

 

[Good_Fella]

The Orthodox would probably question you about what is the meaning of dogma. If mediatrix of all graces has become a dogma, what is the purpose of dogma?

 

[Good_Fella]

The Orthodox see the history of doctrine in relation to soteriology. St. Athanasius said to the Arians, if Christ is not God then how can He make us gods. St. Gregory Nazianzen defended the Trinity against the Eunomians precisely through the ascetical life. St. Cyril of Alexandria attacked the arguements of Nestorius in a similar manner as St. Athanasius did against the Arians. Essentially for the Orthodox, dogma is the guide to the spiritual life. Theology and spirituality are united, and can not be seperated. Without a relationship with the ascetical life or the spiritual life a doctrine is superfluous and will remain just a theologoumenon or a pious tradition (which you still might be expected to accept even if it isn’t dogma).

So do Catholics but…

“Are they not then committing a crime, in their very thought to gainsay so great and ecumenical Council? Are they not in transgression, when they dare to confront that good definition against Arianism, acknowledged, as it is, by those who had in the first instance taught them irreligion?”
Athanasius, Defence of the Nicene Definition, 2 (A.D. 351)
*
“The Word of the Lord which came through the ecumenical Synod at Nicea abides forever.”*
Athanasius, To the Bishops of Africa, 2 (A.D. 372)

“And therefore, first in the holy Synod of Nicea, the gathering of the three hundred and eighteen chosen men, united by the Holy Ghost, as far as in him lay, he [Athanasius] stayed the disease. Though not yet ranked among the Bishops, he held the first rank among the members of the Council, for preference was given to virtue just as much as to office.”
Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 21:14 (A.D. 379)

St. Bishop Gregory was called to give a closing address in refutation of the Eunomian heresy - the denial of the divinity of the Holy Spirit - at the ecumenical Council at Constantinople which formally and decisively condemned this false teaching.

"And in no wise do we suffer to be shaken by anyone, the faith defined, or the symbol of faith settled, by our fathers, who assembled, in their day, at Nicea. Neither do we allow ourselves, or any other, to alter the word there set down, or even to omit a single syllable, mindful of that saying: ‘Remove not the ancient landmarks which thy fathers have set.’ "
*Cyril of Alexandria, To John of Antioch, 5 (A.D. 433) *

“With the Mediator you are the Mediatrix of the entire world.”
Ephraem of Syria (A.D. 379)

“He, therefore, founded a Church, Himself being the foundation, in which we also, as rich and precious stones, are built into a holy temple, as a dwelling place for God in the spirit; the Church having Christ for a foundation, and an immoveable support, is perfectly immoveable.”
Cyril of Alexandria, On Isaiah, 4 (A.D. 429)

Cyril, Gregory, and Athanasius would be among the first to tell you that it is the Church, not they, which is indefectible in the universal teachings of faith and morals.

Theology and spirituality are indeed united, but remember that the asceticism of the Gnostics and Manichaens did not safeguard them from teaching false doctrines based on their individual theological opinions.

PAX :heaven:

 

[jimmy]

Is that so? :coffeeread:

“With the Mediator you are the Mediatrix of the entire world.”
Ephraem of Syria

“Hail, our desirable gladness; Hail, O rejoicing of the Churches; Hail, O name that breathes out sweetness; Hail, face that radiates divinity and grace.”
Theodotus of Ancrya

"The Virgin’s festival parthenik panegyris] incites our tongue today to herald her praise…handmaid and Mother, Virgin and heaven, the only bridge of God to men."
Proclus of Constantinople

“O Virgin all holy, he who has said of you all that is honourable and glorious has not sinned against the truth, but remains unequal to your merit. Look down upon us from above and be propitious to us.”
Basil of Seleucia

“Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God.”
Theoteknos of Livias

“Mary the Ever-Virgin – radiant with divine light and full of grace, mediatrix first through her supernatural birth and now because of her maternal assistance – be crowned with never ending blessings…seeking balance and fittingness in all things, we should make our way honestly, as sons of light.”
Germanus of Constantinople

“O, how marvelous it is! She acts as mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes the Mother of the Creator.”
Andrew of Crete

“She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim, exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God.”
John of Damascene

The invocation of Mary as Mediatrix of all grace - the grace that originates from the Son and is channeled to us through Mary’s merciful intercession in heaven - belongs to a sacred tradition of the eastern churches as well. This tradition began in apostolic time.

"How can this be, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy."
Luke 1, 43-44

John the Baptist was sanctified by the Source of all grace in his mother’s womb through Mary’s mediation. :yup:

PAX :harp:

Your quotes don’t speak of mediatrix of all graces. For example you quote John of Damascus. This quote is essentially the cherubic hymn of the Orthodox liturgy. It has no relation to mediatrix of all graces. The Orthodox do not deny that Mary has a role in salvation or that she intercedes for us or that she should be honored. What is denied is mediatrix of all graces, not intercession.

It would also be nice if you could give your sources.

 

[jimmy]

So do Catholics but…

“Are they not then committing a crime, in their very thought to gainsay so great and ecumenical Council? Are they not in transgression, when they dare to confront that good definition against Arianism, acknowledged, as it is, by those who had in the first instance taught them irreligion?”
Athanasius, Defence of the Nicene Definition, 2 (A.D. 351)

“The Word of the Lord which came through the ecumenical Synod at Nicea abides forever.”
Athanasius, To the Bishops of Africa, 2 (A.D. 372)

"And therefore, first in the holy Synod of Nicea, the gathering of the three hundred and eighteen chosen men, united by the Holy Ghost, as far as in him lay, he [Athanasius] stayed the disease. Though not yet ranked among the Bishops, he held the first rank among the members of the Council, for preference was given to virtue just as much as to office."
Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 21:14 (A.D. 379)

St. Bishop Gregory was called to give a closing address in refutation of the Eunomian heresy - the denial of the divinity of the Holy Spirit - at the ecumenical Council at Constantinople which formally and decisively condemned this false teaching.

"And in no wise do we suffer to be shaken by anyone, the faith defined, or the symbol of faith settled, by our fathers, who assembled, in their day, at Nicea. Neither do we allow ourselves, or any other, to alter the word there set down, or even to omit a single syllable, mindful of that saying: ‘Remove not the ancient landmarks which thy fathers have set.’ "
*Cyril of Alexandria, To John of Antioch, 5 (A.D. 433) *

“With the Mediator you are the Mediatrix of the entire world.”
Ephraem of Syria (A.D. 379)

“He, therefore, founded a Church, Himself being the foundation, in which we also, as rich and precious stones, are built into a holy temple, as a dwelling place for God in the spirit; the Church having Christ for a foundation, and an immoveable support, is perfectly immoveable.”
Cyril of Alexandria, On Isaiah, 4 (A.D. 429)

Cyril, Gregory, and Athanasius would be among the first to tell you that it is the Church, not they, which is indefectible in the universal teachings of faith and morals.

Theology and spirituality are indeed united, but remember that the asceticism of the Gnostics and Manichaens did not safeguard them from teaching false doctrines based on their individual theological opinions.

PAX :heaven:

I don’t know why you quote the councils, I have never denied their authority.

You speak of the Church as if it is seperate from those who are part of it. The Spirit works through the people who are in the Church, not some body that is seperate from the people. But, yes, no individual is infallible. It is the whole body of the Church that is guided by the Spirit.

Spirituality and theology are united; if one is faulty then so is the other. They are essentially the same thing. The manicheans were wrong in every sense of the word, whether you speak of spirituality or of theology. They were wrong. The same with the gnostics. This is because they had a false conception of God and the world. But my purpose in the above posts was to say that if mediatrix of all graces does not affect our soteriology then it is irrelevant and consequently becomes purely an intellectual matter.

 

[Good_Fella]

Your quotes don’t speak of mediatrix of all graces. For example you quote John of Damascus. This quote is essentially the cherubic hymn of the Orthodox liturgy. It has no relation to mediatrix of all graces. The Orthodox do not deny that Mary has a role in salvation or that she intercedes for us or that she should be honored. What is denied is mediatrix of all graces, not intercession.

It would also be nice if you could give your sources.

Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 4:3; Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1; Basil of Seleucia, PG 85: 452; Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption 291 (He was the first to introduce the title Mediatrix in the West.); Germanus of Constantinople, Homily on the Liberation of Constantinople, 23; Andrew of Crete, Homily on Mary’s Nativity, 1; John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity, 9.

John of Damascene has grace in mind when he acknowledges Mary as being the nearest to God among all of his human creatures. Grace is a blessing and a free gift conferred on us by God. And it is the effect of his love for us. Because of the love the Son has for his mother, we may undeservedly receive all the actual graces that are lacking in our lives through Mary’s prayerful intercession. In other words, she merits for us de congruo proprie the actual graces we receive by her right of friendship with God and of the divine maternity in the hypostatic order of redemption.

“Through her, the long warfare waged with the Creator has been ended. Through her, the reconciliation between us and Him was ratified. Grace and peace were granted us, so that men and angels are united in the same choir, an we, who had been deserving of disdain, have become sons of God. From her we have harvested the grape of life; from her we have cultivated the seed of immortality. For our sake she became Mediatrix of all blessings; in her God became man, and man became God.”
[John of Damascene, Homily 2 on the Dormition, 16]

What exactly is Mary interceding for on our behalf, if not all the graces necessary for our salvation?


St. Paul assures us that there is no salvation or any blessing from God apart from his grace.

PAX :harp:

 

[Good_Fella]

I don’t know why you quote the councils, I have never denied their authority.

I quoted the individuals who recognized that the final teaching authority lay with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church: the Pope (Bishop of Rome) in union with the College of Bishops. Both Athanasius and Cyril of Alexandria appealed to the Bishop of Rome to authoritatively intervene and end the crises once and for all, for he was recognized as St. Peter’s successor.

You speak of the Church as if it is seperate from those who are part of it. The Spirit works through the people who are in the Church, not some body that is seperate from the people. But, yes, no individual is infallible. It is the whole body of the Church that is guided by the Spirit.

I speak of the Church as a whole body that is guided by the Spirit of truth. Indeed, individual members are fallible, including individual heretical clerics like Arius, a priest in Alexandria, and Nestorius, the Archbishop of Constantinople. Individuals comprise the episcopacy and participate in the divine office, but the final teaching authority does not lie with individual bishops or clerics, save the Pontiff when he pronounces an infallible truth ex cathedra.

Spirituality and theology are united; if one is faulty then so is the other. They are essentially the same thing. The manicheans were wrong in every sense of the word, whether you speak of spirituality or of theology. They were wrong. The same with the gnostics. This is because they had a false conception of God and the world. But my purpose in the above posts was to say that if mediatrix of all graces does not affect our soteriology then it is irrelevant and consequently becomes purely an intellectual matter.

God intended that the Incarnation should not happen without Mary’s fiat. In the words of St. John Damascene:

“Through her, the long warfare waged with the Creator has been ended. Through her, the reconciliation between God and us was ratified.”

Evangelical and reformed Calvinist Protestants reject the idea of active and meritorious human participation in the order of redemption.

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[dzheremi]

I’m not seeing anything to disagree with in the statements of these saints…primarily because recognizing Mary’s role in salvation by bearing the Saviour does not necessitate any sort of questionable theological position. I’m not seeing anywhere in the quote from St. John Damascene, for instance, where he says that she is mediatrix of all graces or co-redemptrix in the way that either of these titles are apparently understood by some Catholics.

 

[jimmy]

Evangelical and reformed Calvinist Protestants reject the idea of active and meritorious human participation in the order of redemption.

Pax Christu :harp:

Yes, but I would say they are already heretics for this because they have distorted the incarnation with their anti-intercession arguments. Just as Grace can be transmitted through the icon, it can also be transmitted through the saints. Christ redeemed created reality and so that created reality becomes a medium through which Gods Grace is recieved. Their heresy is Christological rather than Marian just like the iconoclasts heresy was Christological.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Maryism is just plain wrong.

If that’s what you truly believe, then take that one foot out of Catholicism.

Mary has played an important role in our salvation because of her “fiat” to God’s Will. You may not know it…you may forget it. But behind the scenes she still works, like a Mother tending to the problems her children face and do not even know about.

 

[Doxiemom]

No sir my foot remains

I have absolutley no problem at all with intercessory prayer because the catholic church teaches that this need not be done just the living for the living. rather those in heaven are more alive than ever and most certainly are interested in praying for us to overcome a sin problem or some other crisis in our lives.

mary is in heaven and I do occasionly prayer for her intercession through a Hail Mary and when i do this it is a sweet time.

However, this whole other stuff takes away from the glory due the Triune God. As a believer, i can pray directly to the Father, The Son, or the Holy Spirit.

Maryism is simply not sciptural. She is not the meditrix of all grace. Grace comes from God. Grace is what saves us from hell. And we are able to be saved from hell through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ.

is there any reason why i need to go to mary when i can go to Christ?

Kneeling before a statue of Mary is coming very close to idol worship.