5th Marian Dogma

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Doxiemom said:
However, this whole other stuff takes away from the glory due the Triune God. As a believer, i can pray directly to the Father, The Son, or the Holy Spirit.
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Why separate that which cannot be separated? When you pray, you pray to the triune God, who is Father, Son, AND Holy Spirit. 👍
Maryism is simply not sciptural. She is not the meditrix of all grace. Grace comes from God. Grace is what saves us from hell. And we are able to be saved from hell through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ.
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Is there something specific that you mean by “Maryism”? There is appropriate Marian devotion, well outside of any possibly heretical understandings of Mary’s role in salvation. What you consider as appropriate will vary by Church, but that shouldn’t mean that Marian devotion is not scriptural. It absolutely is. “All generations shall call me blessed” is, as I’m sure you know, recorded in the Bible itself.
is there any reason why i need to go to mary when i can go to Christ?
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I think this is asking the wrong question. Why did the Saviour, the very same Christ, tell His disciple in the book of John “Behold, your mother!”?
Kneeling before a statue of Mary is coming very close to idol worship.
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No it isn’t. Worshipping the statue of Mary would be idol worship. This is not what Catholics are taught to do, and I suspect you know that.
 
Doxiemom said:
No sir my foot remains

I have absolutley no problem at all with intercessory prayer because the catholic church teaches that this need not be done just the living for the living. rather those in heaven are more alive than ever and most certainly are interested in praying for us to overcome a sin problem or some other crisis in our lives.

mary is in heaven and I do occasionly prayer for her intercession through a Hail Mary and when i do this it is a sweet time.

However, this whole other stuff takes away from the glory due the Triune God. As a believer, i can pray directly to the Father, The Son, or the Holy Spirit.

Maryism is simply not sciptural. She is not the meditrix of all grace. Grace comes from God. Grace is what saves us from hell. And we are able to be saved from hell through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ.

is there any reason why i need to go to mary when i can go to Christ?

Kneeling before a statue of Mary is coming very close to idol worship.
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You either follow all the Church teaches or you don’t. You are going to Christ when you go to Mary…because your prayers go straight to Him through her. “Belonging to Mary is a privileged means of belonging to Christ.”

Please read up on Catholic Doctrine. I do not think you fully understand her role in the Church.
  • 968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510 *

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

Blessings,
Therese
 
lil_flower_luv said:
You either follow all the Church teaches or you don’t. You are going to Christ when you go to Mary…because your prayers go straight to Him through her. “Belonging to Mary is a privileged means of belonging to Christ.”

Please read up on Catholic Doctrine. I do not think you fully understand her role in the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509

*969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510 *

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

Blessings,
Therese
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So the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son through Mary. What a twist. This is a completely rediculous concept. Essentially what you are denying is the Pentecost. There is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit within man; Mary must give us grace herself. The Spirit doesn’t work in us to raise our prayer up, rather Mary is the intermediary through which our prayer comes to God. The Spirit doesn’t transform our souls, Mary does. What utter nonsense.

Just curious, who confects the Eucharist - the Holy Spirit or Mary? Is it Mary that transforms the Eucharist? Is she an intermediary in the bestowal of sacramental grace?

This seems to bring up a real problem with this idea of mediatrix of all graces. It seems to distort sacramentalism and in fact destroy it all. The sacrament is an immediate presence of the Grace of God to man through creation. In the Eucharist, Christ is immediately present, not through the mediation of Mary. Through all of creation the Grace of Christ is immediately present, not through the mediation of Mary but through the direct action of God. God acts directly on man, not remotely. How about with the Incarnation itself? Does Mary intercede with Christ’s divinity for His humanity?
 
jimmy said:
So the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son through Mary. What a twist. This is a completely rediculous concept. Essentially what you are denying is the Pentecost. There is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit within man; Mary must give us grace herself. The Spirit doesn’t work in us to raise our prayer up, rather Mary is the intermediary through which our prayer comes to God. The Spirit doesn’t transform our souls, Mary does. What utter nonsense.
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When you pray to God you are praying to the Triune God.
Mary does plays an important role in our Church, but she does not take the place of the Holy Spirit. That is utter nonsense. It is through her intercession that graces are achieved. You can ask intercession of her and other saints, you know. I hope I don’t have to explain the whole deal to you.
Just curious, who confects the Eucharist - the Holy Spirit or Mary? Is it Mary that transforms the Eucharist? Is she an intermediary in the bestowal of sacramental grace?
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Do you honestly want me to answer that or are you just making fun of me?
This seems to bring up a real problem with this idea of mediatrix of all graces. It seems to distort sacramentalism and in fact destroy it all. The sacrament is an immediate presence of the Grace of God to man through creation. In the Eucharist, Christ is immediately present, not through the mediation of Mary. Through all of creation the Grace of Christ is immediately present, not through the mediation of Mary but through the direct action of God. God acts directly on man, not remotely. How about with the Incarnation itself? Does Mary intercede with Christ’s divinity for His humanity?
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All I said is that she had a place in our salvation that God gave to her. He could have done a number of other things but He didn’t. I just accept what He did do. If you can’t, then that’s something you have to deal with.
 
lil_flower_luv said:
When you pray to God you are praying to the Triune God.
Mary does plays an important role in our Church, but she does not take the place of the Holy Spirit. That is utter nonsense. It is through her intercession that graces are achieved. You can ask intercession of her and other saints, you know. I hope I don’t have to explain the whole deal to you.
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No one denies intercession by Mary and the saints and even mediation. What is denied is mediation of all Grace.
Do you honestly want me to answer that or are you just making fun of me?
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No, I am not making fun of you (and I am sorry if that is the impression I gave). I am just trying to make a point that Mary is not the mediator of all Grace; that there is a direct action of God upon man. I am not denying mediation by the saints; in fact I would say that to deny mediation by Mary and the saints would be heretical for similar reasons that iconoclasm was heretical.
All I said is that she had a place in our salvation that God gave to her. He could have done a number of other things but He didn’t. I just accept what He did do. If you can’t, then that’s something you have to deal with.
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We can agree on that.
 
fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2007/04/03/the-lamb-slain-from-the-foundation-of-the-world/
These verses about the mystery of ’ The Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world ’ and the promise in The Garden about The Woman could help to see the intimate God ordained role of The New Eve , in the timelessness of eternity ; after all , if all of creation was affected by the fall and as St .Paul’s words tell us, how much more the infinite merits of our Lord and is it that difficult to accept God’s goodness in granting His Mother an inseparable role in all of same !

Our own grudgings and difficulties in this area may be a good help to gauge the deepseated areas of little / big hatreds , unforgiveness etc ; in our own hearts that need the Motherly touch and this would seem to be the primary reason for The Church to accept these inspirations of The Spirit and make it available for the faithful , to build up more freedom to love and trust, for the sake of all.

saintmichael.net/index2.htm

And the lost freedoms to love , from lingering hatreds and unforgiveness esp. brought in through maternal relationships , could that not be the primary reason for much of our problems, including alienation from The Church !

As many in The Church accept with gratitude the mercy through granting of indulgences by The Church, esp. tomorrow , Feast of All Soul’s Day , the seamless truth of her God given wisdom can only be praised !
 
jimmy said:
Yes, but I would say they are already heretics for this because they have distorted the incarnation with their anti-intercession arguments. Just as Grace can be transmitted through the icon, it can also be transmitted through the saints. Christ redeemed created reality and so that created reality becomes a medium through which Gods Grace is recieved. Their heresy is Christological rather than Marian just like the iconoclasts heresy was Christological.
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One can just as easily “distort the Incarnation” by denying our Blessed Mother the prerogative of mediating the fulness of grace to us through her prayerful intercession. St. Paul teaches us that we are both recipients and bearers of God’s grace when he describes himself and the faithful as “stewards of grace”. Mary is the chief steward of the fulness of grace she was endowed with (cf.Jn 2:3-5) upon her Immaculate Conception and that was fully consummated at the end of her earthly life. She is the recipient and the bearer of this fulness of grace, obtaining for us the application of grace where it is lacking in our lives - be it the grace of a particular infused virtue (charity) or infused gift of the Holy Spirit (wisdom).

By virtue of her divine maternity, Mary was infused with all the theological and moral virtues and gifts of the Holy Spirit by the sanctifying and habitual grace of God. She never fell from God’s grace (kecharitomene). Thus she is able to bear any one of them to any soul at a given moment where it is needed by channeling the actual graces we receive through her intercession. And because this prerogative of Mary’s belongs to the hypostatic order of redemption, and rests strictly on the pre-eminent privilege of her divine maternity, to deny Mary this prerogative amounts to denying the Incarnation. Mary could not be the Mediatrix of all grace unless she were the Mother of God.

As a physical, instrumental cause of the flow of God’s grace, Mary is more than an icon. But it is through the sacraments that we directly receive sanctifying grace. The actual graces we receive through Mary’s mediation help predispose us to be fit to receive the sacraments properly.

“She is the Mediatrix of law and grace, she is the mediation between the sublimity of God and the abjection of the flesh.”
St. Andrew of Crete

Pax Christu :harp:
 
SingleMomMonica said:
Heard on Catholic Radio last night that this “5 Marian Dogma” that **Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces **is NOT a new dogma and that it has been believed since the beginning of the Church.

Apparently there is a petition which either has or will be sent to Pope Benedict with millions of signatures requesting him to make an Infallible Statement on this dogma.

Two questions for Catholics I have are:
  1. If it’s been believed and taught since the beginning of the Church, then why would it need to be officially declared as dogma in an Infallible Statement by the Pope?
  2. If it’s been believed and taught since the beginning of the Church, then why don’t we see it referenced anywhere in Church History & Tradition?
The Bible was silent about it, the Councils were silent about it and the Fathers were silent about it.

The question I have for Protestants is:
  1. If the Pope declares this as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it make you more or less likely to become a Catholic?
The question I have for Orthodox Christians is:
  1. If the Pope declares t his as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it speed up or slow down any progress made towards the reunification of Rome with the Orthodox Churches?
The question I have for Non-Christians is this:
  1. If the Pope were to declare it - would it impact your thoughts on the Catholic Church in anyway?
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Co-Mediatrix, perhaps. I never heard that Mary is a “full” Mediatrix of all Graces.
 
lil_flower_luv said:
Full Mediatrix, co-redemtrix.

Perhaps this will help:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/MARYMEDI.HTM
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Thanks for the article, brother. I have read it. The Mediatrix concerned there is the Mediation of human to Jesus, the son of Mary. In that sense, I agree with you. But, still there is no way to God directly except through Jesus. And, Mary mediates us to Jesus to get an express way to Him. In global sense, I would settle for Co-Mediatrix.
 
swariffin said:
Thanks for the article, brother. I have read it. The Mediatrix concerned there is the Mediation of human to Jesus, the son of Mary. In that sense, I agree with you. But, still there is no way to God directly except through Jesus. And, Mary mediates us to Jesus to get an express way to Him. In global sense, I would settle for Co-Mediatrix.
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First of all, I’m your sister in Christ. 🙂 For the most part I agree with you…I just don’t think you understand one thing. Jesus is our Mediator with the Father. And Mary is our Mediatrix with Jesus. Therefore she is full Mediatrix of all graces.
In The Legion of Mary prayer, we pray, “O Lord Jesus Christ our Mediator with the Father, Who has been pleased to appoint the Most Blessed Virgin, Your Mother, to be our Mother also and our Mediatrix with You, mercifully grant that whoever comes to You seeking Your favors may rejoice to receive all of them through her. Amen.”

+JMJ+
Therese
 
lil_flower_luv said:
First of all, I’m your sister in Christ. 🙂 For the most part I agree with you…I just don’t think you understand one thing. Jesus is our Mediator with the Father. And Mary is our Mediatrix with Jesus. Therefore she is full Mediatrix of all graces.
In The Legion of Mary prayer, we pray, “O Lord Jesus Christ our Mediator with the Father, Who has been pleased to appoint the Most Blessed Virgin, Your Mother, to be our Mother also and our Mediatrix with You, mercifully grant that whoever comes to You seeking Your favors may rejoice to receive all of them through her. Amen.”

+JMJ+
Therese
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My apology, my dear sister, I should have checked your profile first. Any way, for the way you express your point in your posting, I can agree with that.
 
Am I the only one left wondering which heresy this thing is in response to?
 
SingleMomMonica said:
Heard on Catholic Radio last night that this “5 Marian Dogma” that **Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces **is NOT a new dogma and that it has been believed since the beginning of the Church.

Apparently there is a petition which either has or will be sent to Pope Benedict with millions of signatures requesting him to make an Infallible Statement on this dogma.

Two questions for Catholics I have are:
  1. If it’s been believed and taught since the beginning of the Church, then why would it need to be officially declared as dogma in an Infallible Statement by the Pope?
  2. If it’s been believed and taught since the beginning of the Church, then why don’t we see it referenced anywhere in Church History & Tradition?
The Bible was silent about it, the Councils were silent about it and the Fathers were silent about it.

The question I have for Protestants is:
  1. If the Pope declares this as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it make you more or less likely to become a Catholic?
The question I have for Orthodox Christians is:
  1. If the Pope declares t his as Dogma in an Infallible Statement, will it speed up or slow down any progress made towards the reunification of Rome with the Orthodox Churches?
The question I have for Non-Christians is this:
  1. If the Pope were to declare it - would it impact your thoughts on the Catholic Church in anyway?
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I don’t know if you are for, against or just throwing a juicy steak to a starving pack of dogs.

(no insult intended to the various entities…or the dogs).

I am sure an apologist or two will have the reasons why a cherished belief becomes dogma while others are left as “believe it or not”.
 
StrawberryJam said:
The silence is stunning.🙂
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Does a “new” heresy (one that would warrant a dogmatically defined response) have to come from those within the Church? Would a “new” belief that comes from a non-Catholic Christian church warrant a dogmatically defined response since it’s not part of the Church? Does that make sense? Maybe I’m overthinking it.
 
SingleMomMonica said:
That’s a great question! I don’t believe there is one, but would like to hear what the Catholics will say about it.
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Not every dogma is declared solely in response to a heresy (though most of them have been). For example, the Assumption was not declared in response to a specific heresy.

If this were to be declared dogma, I think it could provide a great benefit in that it would clearly articulate the Church’s teaching on what difference Mary makes in the lives of us Christians today. The previous dogmas (Theotokos, Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception, and Assumption) all speak of truths about Mary mostly as pertains to her relationship with God. But none of those dogmas effectively respond to what Mary does for us, which is a point of great misunderstanding by many Protestants.

Just think of how much easier it would be to respond to all the threads that begin with “Why do Catholics pray to Mary?” 😉
 
StrawberryJam said:
Am I the only one left wondering which heresy this thing is in response to?
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One thing I do believe is this,

The promulgation of the 5th Marian dogma is a catholic prophecy (don’t ask me from whom, I don’t remember) of personal revelation…so, it’s one of those take it or leave it kinda things.

However, (and this is why I personally accept it) its ok to “observe the signs of the times” - that and maintain a life of prayer and a life of the spirit.
 
jimmy said:
Your quotes don’t speak of mediatrix of all graces. For example you quote John of Damascus. This quote is essentially the cherubic hymn of the Orthodox liturgy. It has no relation to mediatrix of all graces. The Orthodox do not deny that Mary has a role in salvation or that she intercedes for us or that she should be honored. What is denied is mediatrix of all graces, not intercession.

It would also be nice if you could give your sources.
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Deny - admit - accept - reject…why why why…blah blah blah…

All I know is that it will be declared a dogma some day; it will come to pass.

Like it…don’t like it…argue or agree…

5th Marian Dogma …coming soon to a thread near you!😃
 
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