5th Marian Dogma

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One thing I do believe is this,

The promulgation of the 5th Marian dogma is a catholic prophecy (don’t ask me from whom, I don’t remember) of personal revelation…so, it’s one of those take it or leave it kinda things.
That’s not entirely true. The basis of the proposed dogma is the teachings of the Church (Scripture, documents of ecumenical councils, and documents of the popes). However, this proposed dogma was heavily promoted in the apparitions of Our Lady of All Nations to Ida Peerdeman. These apparitions have been approved as being of supernatural origin (but, of course, as with all private revelation, one is free to, as you say, “take it or leave it”).

In short, this particular apparition encourages the promulgation of this as dogma, but it is not the sole source of information about it.
 
That’s not entirely true. The basis of the proposed dogma is the teachings of the Church (Scripture, documents of ecumenical councils, and documents of the popes). However, this proposed dogma was heavily promoted in the apparitions of Our Lady of All Nations to Ida Peerdeman. These apparitions have been approved as being of supernatural origin (but, of course, as with all private revelation, one is free to, as you say, “take it or leave it”).

In short, this particular apparition encourages the promulgation of this as dogma, but it is not the sole source of information about it.
Yeah yeah - that’s what I meant.
🙂
 
I thought about this topic for some time after posting my last question on this. And, I hesitated and am reluctant about sharing my thoughts about it, but here goes so please be kind I am trying to work this out in my mind and it’s simply not adding up.

Problem: The Church is adamant that one does not need to accept a apparition, even if it is approved.
If this “5th” Dogma is promulgated and the faithful MUST believe it, as with all dogmas, how can the Church continue to make this claim without being intellectually dishonest?

Many people for many years (nearly 2,000) never included this in their instruction to the faithful. None of this makes sense to me. Why is it needed now? Part of the positive part of Catholic faith is that it tends not to define things overly much in the way of dogma but it will stand up quickly to define heresy. This is a good thing, because things do become revealed over time that were not known before (think about evolution) and that once you put yourself in a box, its hard to climb out of it.

I think I would find myself asking the Orthodox out of union with Rome to baptize me and accept me if I came to belief and this was already official. I would have a harder time leaving if baptized Catholic (loyal to Peter) before it being official, but would end up in a bad state, because I would not believe in this dogma therefore I would be in trouble with Rome anyway.😦

I think that there should be a retraction of the statement that apparitions are optional for belivers if this goes ahead. That would be far more honest IMHO.
 
Problem: The Church is adamant that one does not need to accept a apparition, even if it is approved.
If this “5th” Dogma is promulgated and the faithful MUST believe it, as with all dogmas, how can the Church continue to make this claim without being intellectually dishonest?
I don’t see this as intellectually dishonest. Perhaps I didn’t understand your point but here goes:
If “Mary as mediatrix of all graces” was declared a dogma, it doesn’t contradict the fact that approved apparitions are optional. In fact I don’t see much relation between one and the other. Apparitions happen at different times, in different parts of the world, for different reasons. The fact that one gets approved or another doesn’t has no immediate relation to Mary as mediatrix. The language certainly turns a lot of people off though which is why I think if this were to be defined it would need different or more careful wording as it’s quite misunderstood.
I think that there should be a retraction of the statement that apparitions are optional for belivers if this goes ahead. That would be far more honest IMHO.
Again, I don’t see why something believed by the Church and reflected by many saints contradicts or is dishonest with the Church’s stance on private revelation. Public revelation ceased long ago.

I think imposing private revelation as mandatory would be the truly dishonest thing. Prayer of the rosary would have to be mandatory too.
 
Liraco said: I don’t see this as intellectually dishonest. Perhaps I didn’t understand your point but here goes:
If “Mary as mediatrix of all graces” was declared a dogma, it doesn’t contradict the fact that approved apparitions are optional.
How so? Your friend Joe provided the evidence here:

“However, this proposed dogma was heavily promoted in the apparitions of Our Lady of All Nations to Ida Peerdeman”
Liraco said:
In fact I don’t see much relation between one and the other.
Read Joe’s comments and then tell me there is no connection.🤷
Apparitions happen at different times, in different parts of the world, for different reasons. The fact that one gets approved or another doesn’t has no immediate relation to Mary as mediatrix.
Again, in this case an apparition is tied to this particular proposed yet not official potential dogma. It would be in direct relation to it if approved.
The language certainly turns a lot of people off though which is why I think if this were to be defined it would need different or more careful wording as it’s quite misunderstood
.

I could care less if it is understood properly or not. The fact is, it is based off an approved apparition with other things. Just exactly how many more marian dogmas do there need to be? When will there ever be an end to them, and its getting to the point that dogmas are becoming all about her if this continues. I have asked if this is in response to a heresy, and if it were I would have much more sympathy to it. But, it appears no one can name a heresy that this would be in response to.
Again, I don’t see why something believed by the Church and reflected by many saints contradicts or is dishonest with the Church’s stance on private revelation. Public revelation ceased long ago.
What do you mean by “many saints”? In relation to the total number of cannonized saints, can you really say Many Saints refered to this teaching of Mediatrix in the sense that you can say it is exactly the same as what is being proposed now? How many is many?
I think imposing private revelation as mandatory would be the truly dishonest thing. Prayer of the rosary would have to be mandatory too.
I agree.
 
“However, this proposed dogma was heavily promoted in the apparitions of Our Lady of All Nations to Ida Peerdeman”
Read Joe’s comments and then tell me there is no connection.🤷
I stand by what I said, the fact that an apparition doesn’t CONTRADICT church teaching (which is one of the requirements to approve them), doesn’t mean that it’s the only reason for doing this. Joe said it himself, this apparition is merely asking for the dogma to be declared of something already taught by the Church.

The idea of Mary as mediatrix of grace has been around a long time.
I’d recommend you read, “Making Peace with the Mediatrix”.

Also, popular opinion won’t force the Pope’s hand to call a dogma just because the people ask for it. If the Church listened to the masses we’d be a mess! Abortion, women’s ordination, homsexual “marriage”, etc.
I could care less if it is understood properly or not. The fact is, it is based off an approved apparition with other things. Just exactly how many more marian dogmas do there need to be? When will there ever be an end to them, and its getting to the point that dogmas are becoming all about her if this continues. I have asked if this is in response to a heresy, and if it were I would have much more sympathy to it. But, it appears no one can name a heresy that this would be in response to.
Well you certainly care enough to be this agitated on the subject, and it really does seem to bother you so I don’t see why you don’t care about it being taught properly to try to address likely errors.

This is not in response to a heresy as far as I know, as others have noted, dogmas are not always responses to heresy.
What do you mean by “many saints”? In relation to the total number of cannonized saints, can you really say Many Saints refered to this teaching of Mediatrix in the sense that you can say it is exactly the same as what is being proposed now? How many is many?
I don’t have the time or energy to give you an exact number, it’d be a lot faster to tell me how many saints were against Mary or Marian doctrines.

Let’s go back to St. Louis de Montfort’s “Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary”. There you can see the idea of Mary as mediatrix among other things. It’s a wonderful devotion, it’s also OPTIONAL. Among those who followed this consecration was none other than our Pope John Paul II. I’d hope St. Louis’ work is sufficiently old enough to convince you that this is nothing new.

Edit: just thought this little (PDF) gem was interesting to add:
It needs to be drawn out and further clarified by the work of theologians and appropriated by the entire Church. Our Lady further indicated that there would be a struggle in this regard, but she never suggested that the dogma should be defined on the basis of a private revelation, however worthy of credence

[Pope Pius XII] firmly maintained that the Church’s doctrine and devotion are based on the fundamental founts of revelation: Scripture and Tradition

Again, an apparition won’t force a dogma to happen. It’s already taught by the church, so they’re not asking for anything new. Could this have an influence? Perhaps, but it won’t be what causes the dogma to be declared as definitive teaching isn’t something to be done lightly.

If your issue is having private revelation “creating” a new dogma. This won’t be the case here.

Be at peace, and God bless you. 😃
 
The reason to declare a dogma without a heresy is below, and also a description of the already declared “so called” 5th Marian dogma.

Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950 states that:

"For, as the Vatican Council asserts, “all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed.”

So, due to petitions received from the Church, The Holy See proclamed the Assumption dogma, based upon both scripture and tradition.

After the Assumption dogma, but before Vatican II was complete, the Ad Caeli Reginam eycyclical was given by Pope Pius XII, in 1954, it included this:

“Whoever, therefore, reverences the Queen of heaven and earth - and let no one consider himself exempt from this tribute of a grateful and loving soul - let him invoke the most effective of Queens, the Mediatrix of peace; …”

Vatican II (1965) summarized the existing dogmas in Lumen Gentium. As to the fifth dogma Lumen Gentium, Nos. 57, 58, 61, 62, state that it is the teaching of the Church that the Blessed Virgin Mary is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix, and lists events that demonstrate the union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation. Additionally she is described as the virgin Mother of the Redeemer; above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord who by her constant intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.
 
I thank Liraco and Vico and others who I consulted in PM on this who took the time to elaborate on this so I can better understand this.

There are many things I simply was not or could have known were involved in this, so I will give it time to sink in and I am sure my understanding of it will change as I do.

This has been a good thing for me. The more I dig into things, the more I realize how complex they are in the catholic faith, which reminds me how interesting it is. This is part of the magnetizing effect of studying the catholic faith I find hard to stop studying. It is like an onion, with so many layers to it.
 
I don’t understand why we even need Marian dogmas…I don’t even understand why we even need to define a co-redeemer…I know my redeemer lives…There’s plenty enough in the scriptures for me to hide in my heart to keep me from sin…And for me to study to show my self approved rightly dividing His word…
 
I don’t understand why we even need Marian dogmas…I don’t even understand why we even need to define a co-redeemer…I know my redeemer lives…
Well, not all the other dogmas about Mary are useless.

The Nestorians were quite a force, and if left as they were it could have been a horrible thing.

Today, less people would even believe in the Trinity, or the Christ you believe in. It would have been watered down to the point of Christ becoming smaller and smaller. Dangerous heresy I think If I were to believe.
 
StrawberryJam; I think If I were to believe. [/QUOTE said:
I think you believe more than you think you do :)…For someone who is agnostic you give alot of interesting comment…
 
I think you believe more than you think you do :)…For someone who is agnostic you give alot of interesting comment…
I know a lot about other topics, but that does not make me an adherant of their ways.😉

Knowing about things, and believing in them are not the same always. I can know a lot about ancient myths (for example) but not believe in any of them.

I am humbled by your comment that what I post is remotely interesting. I tend to wonder if I even grasp what I am learning here, and through my own personal study and going to Mass and Methodist church for bible study.

You encouraged me to continue. Sometimes I get frustrated to the point that I feel it is all in vain.

So, I thank you and those like you who take time to help me figure this stuff out.

It’s like learning chinese for me. And, I don’t know any other languages fluently.
 
Deny - admit - accept - reject…why why why…blah blah blah…

All I know is that it will be declared a dogma some day; it will come to pass.
I know you are being facetious. 🙂

Even the Pope cannot know this.

Even a Pope who believes it himself and even if he intends to make it a proclaimed dogma himself cannot know that it will come to pass.

No one can know.
 
I know you are being facetious. 🙂

Even the Pope cannot know this.

Even a Pope who believes it himself and even if he intends to make it a proclaimed dogma himself cannot know that it will come to pass.

No one can know.
Wouldn’t it take a long long time to do, even if he did want to do it now? Wouldn’t he have to consult all the Bishops first?
 
I don’t understand why we even need Marian dogmas…I don’t even understand why we even need to define a co-redeemer…I know my redeemer lives…There’s plenty enough in the scriptures for me to hide in my heart to keep me from sin…And for me to study to show my self approved rightly dividing His word…
For some people the Gospel, the Creed and the Sacraments are not enough. Some people think that they need it.

I am still looking for a meaningful discussion on the meaning of grace itself. I have tried to inspire that by quoting some information on grace as Latin Catholics supposedly understand it [post #http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5884852&postcount=106”]106], but no one here (that I know of) has expressed any interest in tying this in with the new proposed dogma.

I think it is worth exploring just what is actually meant by Mediatrix of ALL graces, from a Latin Catholic point of view.
 
This is because you do not need it.

For some people the Gospel, the Creed and the Sacraments are not enough. Some people think that they need it.

I am still looking for a meaningful discussion on the meaning of grace itself. I have tried to inspire that by quoting some information on grace as Latin Catholics supposedly understand it [post #http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5884852&postcount=106”]106
], but no one here (that I know of) has expressed any interest in tying this in with the new proposed dogma.

I think it is worth exploring just what is actually meant by Mediatrix of ALL graces, from a Latin Catholic point of view.

All graces, impossible.

She was not on the cross.
 
Wouldn’t it take a long long time to do, even if he did want to do it now? Wouldn’t he have to consult all the Bishops first?
He could die first, no one can say “I will do this” with complete conviction because no one knows when they will be called home. But of course the whole idea that someone who is not divine can see into the future is complete nonsense, and that is what I am referring to.

Anyway, according to the present day canons of the Latin church there is no requirement for the Pope to hold a Council, the means to determine whether the bishops are in agreement is rather fuzzy, I do not think a standard procedure has ever been determined and the Pope is not bound in any way by rules… in the modern Catholic church he is the rule maker. The Pope can himself decide whether he is satisfied that the bishops as a body agree and there is no appeal from his determination of the matter.

There is a serious flaw with petitions. They are not impartial, the people who sign such a thing are a self selected group. There is no instrument provided to register dissenting opinions… those who do not agree will have nothing to sign and they are not counted.

Things are promoted in this way because they are popular. Marian spirituality ebbs and flows in the western church and the popularity of a subject is not an indication of it’s antiquity of belief, nor of the correctness.

I will (again!) repost the Vincentian Canon, which well describes the basis upon which all the early Christian bishops were able to tell what was orthodox catholic Christian teaching in the early centuries. This “rule of thumb” is still appropriate today…

Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly ‘Catholic,’ as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow **universality **, antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, bishops and doctors alike.

…whatever he shall find to have been held, approved and taught, not by one or two only but by all equally and with one consent, openly, frequently, and persistently, let him take this as to be held by him without the slightest hesitation.

I have always objected to the idea that the causes of saints and dogmas could be promoted by sending postcards (or emails, or petitions) to the Vatican. This is not a popularity contest. Also, the persons who advocate these new dogmas already believe them, so what purpose is there in asking for a dogma? It is to impose these new ideas upon their neighbors.

How is this done? By threatening damnation upon them if they should disagree. It is like saying: “you must agree with what I already believe even though it should not be, and has not been, necessary for your salvation (up until this time)… or go to hell.”

When the dogma is not actually about the divine (Holy Trinity of God, or the nature of Christ), this is a highly abusive, self-centered attitude for Christians to take. Most of these people are hardly aware of what they are really asking for.

This would not be a dogma that saves people, it can only damn people.
 
I need to start a thread asking if the pope needs to consult the Bishops prior to making any decision that would effect all the faithful though Micheal, no offense. I don’t do this because I don’t trust your word on this, but because I think it needs to be opened up for discussion amoung catholics no matter what the answer is in the end.

I hope you understand I am not doing it because I don’t trust you.

I just am the type that can’t seem to believe things easily.🤷
 
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