5th Marian Dogma

[Guyonthestreet]

I don’t question it; neither should you. To not give her the honor she deserves is to say she has no reason to be part of Church History…of Jesus coming to this earth as a man. It’s all or nothing with Mary IMO.

Im going through RCIA and I question everything.

I dont think theres anything wrong with asking questions so long as they are couched respectfully.

Honoring is one thing, to say that ALL GRACES come through Mary is quite something else, and something, at least at this point in time, I cannot accept.

And I keep falling back on the underlying unanswered question for me, what is it with the obsession with all things Mary within the catholic church.

The early church did not have this obsession as far as I can see - Christ was publically and privately at the centre of all worship and prayer, but the honor rightly Marys was never denied or resisted.

Im not sure the early christians would have recognised or understood all the stuff around dulia and hyperdulia. And why is it if the Orthodox have preserved unaltered the early fathers teachings, why are they not onboard with the Assumption and Mediatrix if it has always been taught and believed?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

This does not make any sense, at least not to me.

I relation to your statement here: “It’s all or nothing with Mary”, can you please answer my question about grace?

What I meant is that you cannot except some of what the Church teaches of Mary, and not all. Everything taught about her goes hand and hand. That’s what I meant.

What does Saint Mary do, consciously or not, to effect an Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a person or persons? Where is she in all that… ?

In other words, if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a Grace (according to the Latin Catholic church), how does Saint Mary mediate this?

If you have another definition of this particular grace [Indwelling of the Holy Spirit] according to your church’s teaching feel free to share that with us. Perhaps it is not, after all, a grace in the sense you mean.

I suggest you read this. (Yes, I know it is long, but it will help you understand how Mary and the Holy Spirit work together…)

 

[Hiskid1973]

Christ did not say, “Behold, your Mother” for no reason. What does a mother do? She does whatever she can for the good of her children. This is an easy way to understand Mary’s role as Mediatrix. Her faith, her holiness, her humbleness, her love. Her role in the Church is to bring her children closer to Jesus. He works through her. In this way, all He brings to us, He brings to us through her.

God Bless
Therese

We must have different bibles
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy motheor that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

He also said:

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother

 

[Hesychios]

Hi Therese,

Christ did not say, “Behold, your Mother” for no reason.

When I read “behold your mother” it seems to mean “look at her”.

What does a mother do? She does whatever she can for the good of her children.

I take it then, that this is what she did for Saint John, the beloved disciple. Likewise, I would expect that he cared for her and prayed for her until her death.

This is an easy way to understand Mary’s role as Mediatrix.

I am sorry but this does not tell me anything about the subject at hand.

Her faith, her holiness, her humbleness, her love. Her role in the Church is to bring her children closer to Jesus. He works through her. In this way, all He brings to us, He brings to us through her.

The same could be said of so many saints through the ages: faith, holiness, humbleness and love.

Many of whom suffered horrible agonizing deaths out of love for Christ’s people. Jesus Christ has worked through them all.

Is it the case that all of these people are Mediators of ALL Graces too?

God Bless
Therese

And many blessings to you as well.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I have no problem giving Mary or any other saint honor in the scriptures…She was blessed among women…But her soul magnified the Lord…She is a great example of the faith and my sister in Christ…But I don’t try to contact her…It’s all about Jesus, He is my focus…For me the scriptures contain all I need to find Christ and mature in the faith…What scares me is how people go crazy over sightings, rust or water stains…Reminds me abut end times and what Jesus said in Matt 24 about people saying Jesus was sighted here and there, He said belive it not…peace to you

Knowing Mary is not necessary for salvation. But she sure does help. She can do so much to give you a better relationship with Him. I cannot explain fully all she has done for my family and I. That would take a lifetime. And I am closer to Jesus than ever.

Im going through RCIA and I question everything.

I dont think theres anything wrong with asking questions so long as they are couched respectfully.

Honoring is one thing, to say that ALL GRACES come through Mary is quite something else, and something, at least at this point in time, I cannot accept.

And I keep falling back on the underlying unanswered question for me, what is it with the obsession with all things Mary within the catholic church.

The early church did not have this obsession as far as I can see - Christ was publically and privately at the centre of all worship and prayer, but the honor rightly Marys was never denied or resisted.

Im not sure the early christians would have recognised or understood all the stuff around dulia and hyperdulia. And why is it if the Orthodox have preserved unaltered the early fathers teachings, why are they not onboard with the Assumption and Mediatrix if it has always been taught and believed?

Happy to hear you’re taking classes! Don’t you worry, all your questions about her will be answered. Then, maybe you will have a deeper appreciation for her and her role in the Church.

God Bless you

 

[Hiskid1973]

What I meant is that you cannot except some of what the Church teaches of Mary, and not all. Everything taught about her goes hand and hand. That’s what I meant.

I suggest you read this. (Yes, I know it is long, but it will help you understand how Mary and the Holy Spirit work together…)

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me…

They Holy Spirit resides in these temples as believer in Christ…He searches our hearts…Mary is not involved in any way…

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Knowing Mary is not necessary for salvation. But she sure does help. She can do so much to give you a better relationship with Him. I cannot explain fully all she has done for my family and I. That would take a lifetime. And I am closer to Jesus than ever.

Happy to hear you’re taking classes! Don’t you worry, all your questions about her will be answered. Then, maybe you will have a deeper appreciation for her and her role in the Church.

God Bless you

Thank you and your prayers are greatly appreciated as Im struggling with a lot of areas right now.

What I dont get, and never have from the beginning is if it’s Mary’s role to lead people to her Son, then what’s the deal if I ignore the Dogmas and go straight to Jesus, her Son. Thats after all what she wants, right?

 

[bookgirl32]

Mary is not involved in any way…

Not in any way?

 

[Hesychios]

What I meant is that you cannot except some of what the Church teaches of Mary, and not all. Everything taught about her goes hand and hand. That’s what I meant.

But since this is not a dogma, the church does not teach it as infallibly binding Truth.

In other words, at the present time many persons may not have the understanding you do on the subject because it is not a dogma.

It may not even make sense. Do you understand it?

I suggest you read this. (Yes, I know it is long, but it will help you understand how Mary and the Holy Spirit work together…)

It is definitely long, and the subject is about prayer, not grace.

Although Father William Most was a favorite author of mine on some subjects I am not about to read this entire piece. If you have a point to make could you extract the relevant parts so we can begin to unpack your ideas?

Thanks,

And more blessings to you!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

We must have different bibles
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy motheor that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

He also said:

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother

Same Word of God; just different interpretations. Indeed, He was talking to all of us, and not just John when He entrusted His Mother to us. Praise Jesus for that!

Hi Therese, When I read “behold your mother” it seems to mean “look at her”.

I take it then, that this is what she did for Saint John, the beloved disciple. Likewise, I would expect that he cared for her and prayed for her until her death.
I am sorry but this does not tell me anything about the subject at hand.
The same could be said of so many saints through the ages: faith, holiness, humbleness and love.

Many of whom suffered horrible agonizing deaths out of love for Christ’s people. Jesus Christ has worked through them all.

Is it the case that all of these people are Mediators of ALL Graces too?
And many blessings to you as well.

Hi Michael,
No, the saints of the Church are not Mediators of ALL graces, because they are not the Mother of Christ and were not granted a singular privilege of sinlessness just for that purpose, now were they?
I am sorry if we’re not on the same page…sometimes I have a hard time of getting my point across.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Look your mind is made up…I’m not here to argue…I just know the scriptures…When I get to the 1Cor. 3 judgment I will give account for following God will. To know I search the scriptures and the Holy Spirit uses them to mature me…Thats how I follow His will using His word he spoke via the Holy Spirit to His disciples…Peace to you…

 

[Hiskid1973]

Not in any way?

She was part of God’s plan…She said I rejoice in God my Savior, just like me…I follow the same words she read what was written in her time an after…Think what he said about John the baptist…

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Thank you and your prayers are greatly appreciated as Im struggling with a lot of areas right now.

What I dont get, and never have from the beginning is if it’s Mary’s role to lead people to her Son, then what’s the deal if I ignore the Dogmas and go straight to Jesus, her Son. Thats after all what she wants, right?

You’re welcome; I will continue prayers for you.
Mary wants us to worship and care only to please Him. And her constant intercession helps us to do just that!

But since this is not a dogma, the church does not teach it as infallibly binding Truth.

In other words, at the present time many persons may not have the understanding you do on the subject because it is not a dogma.

It may not even make sense. Do you understand it?
It is definitely long, and the subject is about prayer, not grace.

Although Father William Most was a favorite author of mine on some subjects I am not about to read this entire piece. If you have a point to make could you extract the relevant parts so we can begin to unpack your ideas?

Thanks,

And more blessings to you!

It is indeed another mystery we cannot fully comprehend. “Conceived by the Holy Spirit” - do you believe the Holy Spirit is Mary’s spouse? How can she not work with His indwelling?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Look your mind is made up…I’m not here to argue…I just know the scriptures…When I get to the 1Cor. 3 judgment I will give account for following God will. To know I search the scriptures and the Holy Spirit uses them to mature me…Thats how I follow His will using His word he spoke via the Holy Spirit to His disciples…Peace to you…

Thank you, friend. I know (or pray I know) the scriptures, as well.

God Bless you and yours

 

[bookgirl32]

She said I rejoice in God my Savior, just like me.

Um, sorry, not just like you. She said “yes” when God asked her to be the mother of His Son. You never did that. In this way, her “yes”, she plays a role in the salvation of every single human being, a role that no other human being played or will play. She is different than any other human. I’m not asking you to accept all Marian Catholic dogma (of which “mediatrix of all graces” is not one, may I remind you). But to reject the idea that she played this part in the salvation of every human being is to reject the Bible.

 

[Hesychios]

“Conceived by the Holy Spirit” - do you believe the Holy Spirit is Mary’s spouse?

Frankly, no.

In Orthodox Christian teaching Saint Mary Theotokos is the spouse of Saint Joseph.

If you want to introduce this poetic license into the discussion we are going to have a whole bunch of complications, including but not limited to:

• God does not “marry”, for one thing. The Holy Trinity of God is really not “gender specific” either.
• No one may marry two people simultaneously.
• It cannot be assumed that a spouse has the same or similar prerogatives or has influence in the work of the other. ie the President’s wife is not the President, the garbage collector’s wife is not the garbage collector, the webmaster’s wife is not the webmaster etc.

The old Catholic encyclopedia states:
Marriage is that individual union through which man and woman by their reciprocal rights form one principle of generation. It is effected by their mutual consent to give and accept each other for the purpose of propagating the human race, of educating their offspring, of sharing life in common, of supporting each other in undivided conjugal affection by a lasting union.

To imply this between a creature of God and the Holy Divine sounds quite a bit like a heresy to me.

How can she not work with His indwelling?

 

[Hesychios]

“Conceived by the Holy Spirit” - do you believe the Holy Spirit is Mary’s spouse?

Frankly, no.

In Orthodox Christian teaching Saint Mary Theotokos is the spouse of Saint Joseph.

If you want to introduce this poetic license into the discussion we are going to have a whole bunch of complications, including but not limited to:

• God does not “marry”, for one thing. The Holy Trinity of God is really not “gender specific” either.
• No one may marry two people simultaneously.
• It cannot be assumed that a spouse has the same or similar prerogatives or has influence in the work of the other. ie the President’s wife is not the President, the garbage collector’s wife is not the garbage collector, the webmaster’s wife is not the webmaster etc.

The old Catholic encyclopedia states:
Marriage is that individual union through which man and woman by their reciprocal rights form one principle of generation. It is effected by their mutual consent to give and accept each other for the purpose of propagating the human race, of educating their offspring, of sharing life in common, of supporting each other in undivided conjugal affection by a lasting union.

To imply this between a creature of God and the Holy Divine sounds quite a bit like a heresy to me.

How can she not work with His indwelling?

 

[Hesychios]

Same Word of God; just different interpretations. Indeed, He was talking to all of us, and not just John…

That is one possible interpretation.

However scriptural exegesis allows for numerous meanings to a passage, some not completely obvious, and of course there are some that seem to be wisps of fancy.

Every time we make exegesis beyond the literal meaning of the text we are stretching. We can only go so far with a technique like that before we come up with some dangerous novelties. In this case even the literal meaning requires us to make some assumptions.

For example, for Jesus to say “behold your mother” can be interpreted figuratively, but we must not lose sight of the literal meaning, which is (supposedly) that Jesus knew he was dying, and he needed to make provision for the care of his mother (whom we assume had no other children to look after her).

The text never mentions grace at all. It is not at all clear that Jesus was thinking of appointing his mother to any responsibility at all, except possibly cooking for saint John. The whole “Mediatrix” concept comes from somewhere else entirely, out of left field.

Then we have to deal with the very real fact that she did not die for years afterward. Was she doing this job while she was living in Ephesus?

Why have the Apostles never mentioned it, they all knew her personally!?

The subject doesn’t seem to have come up anywhere in the first centuries. Saint Paul never mentioned it, nor Saint Peter nor Saint James. It’s not in the Didache, or have I missed it?

No, the saints of the Church are not Mediators of ALL graces, because they are not the Mother of Christ and were not granted a singular privilege of sinlessness just for that purpose, now were they?

I am not convinced that she was “granted a singular privilege of sinlessness just for that purpose”.

Are you suggesting Saint Mary of Nazareth was predestined to be the Mediatrix of ALL graces?

I am sorry if we’re not on the same page…sometimes I have a hard time of getting my point across.

I think that you are getting your point across. It’s just not very convincing.

Sorry, but that’s just how it looks from here. I appreciate that you have taken the time to respond.

 

[John_Larocque]

In Orthodox Christian teaching Saint Mary Theotokos is the spouse of Saint Joseph.

Umm… not exactly. His title is Joseph the Betrothed. I’m pretty sure the reasons for preferring “betrothed” over “spouse” relates to her ever virginity.

 

[Liraco]

Indeed, Joseph was the foster-parent of Jesus. To the Jews that’s the same as having been his biological father.

The Holy Spirit DID espouse Mary:
St. Louis de Montfort explains:
God the Holy Spirit . . . became fruitful through Mary whom he espoused. It was with her, in her, and of her that he produced his masterpiece, the God-made-man, and that he produces every day until the end of the world in the members of the adorable Head. For this reason the more he finds Mary—his dear and inseparable spouse—in a soul, the more powerful and effective he becomes in producing Jesus Christ in that soul. (True Devotion, 20)

And here:
Mary is depicted as the spouse of the Holy Spirit in Scripture. In Luke 1:34, when Mary asks the angel how she will conceive a child, the angel responds: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.”

As for “heresy”. How would that be heresy? Jesus is depicted marrying His Church, and that would be us. Marriage here is only a small shadow of what true marriage in heaven will be.

Final thing:

I am not convinced that she was “granted a singular privilege of sinlessness just for that purpose”.

The purpose for the great privilege she has may very well be for many reasons but the biggest reason is that it was fitting for Jesus to be born of such a woman. Not necessary, but fitting. Not only did He make Himself the best mother, He was such a gentleman as to ask His own mother she would accept giving birth to Him.

Anyway, Hesychios, please give this a good read: catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609fea1.asp

God bless.