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PickyPicky
Guest
If this datapoint is useless, why did you call for it in your last post?
6 Reasons Your Right-Wing Friend Isn’t Coming To Your Side On Gun Control
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Theo520
Guest
read my post again, I suggested that relevancy increased when multiple datapoints are combined.
But taking a look at the country comparison, it would indicated the US rate skyrocketed with the drug culture of the 60’s. A smaller increase can also be seen in other countries but not nearly to the same extent.
The US Has Had The Western World's Worst Rate Of Homicide For At Least 60 Years
The US is a dangerous place.
www.businessinsider.com
Perhaps you can explain why there is no correlation between gun ownership and homicide rates in the US. Since we broadly share the same language, culture, and laws, there should at least be a correlation if there was some causality.
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RandomAlias
Guest
The post to which you are replying says nothing about guns, and even so provides insights and proves something about US culture.PickyPicky:
That is a datapoint that provides no insights, proves nothing.
In a separate thread I showed the comparison between gun ownership in US states and their homicide rates. Analysis showed there was no statistical correlation, not even a weak correlation. This was with 50 data points and what I assume is consistent methodology in measurement.
I am astonished at how supporters of gun liberty and gun ownership can be so satisfied with the status quo, as if to say “Five times the murder rate? No problem as long as we are free to have our guns!”
There were so many factors at play in that time period, I am not sure how you happened to pick “drug culture.” Vietnam war, sexual revolution, Watergate, Arab oil crisis, … (and Vatican II?). I think we have to dig a little deeper to explain the rise in US homicides.
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Mark121359
Well-known member
If it’s only guns that are at fault, how do you explain Switzerland? I’ve read that gun ownership is very high in Switzerland,. Something like 30% of Swiss citizens own guns. And yet they have one-seventh the rate of firearm deaths that occur here in the States. What gives?
www.nationalreview.com
The Dishonest Gun-Control Debate | National Review
The gun-control debate is one of the most dishonest arguments we have in American politics. It is dishonest in its particulars, of course, but it is in an important sense dishonest in general: The …
www.nationalreview.com
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PickyPicky
Guest
No, you suggested that the relevant figure would be total deaths due to crime or suicide. My post refers to total deaths due to crime. Useful start?
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PickyPicky
Guest
That’s exactly what Bradskii was asking. If the high rate of murder is not down to guns, what is it down to, and (I would add) what are Americans planning to do about it?
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upant
Guest
national numbers aren’t a true reflection on the majority of the country. we have plenty of bad cities which increase the rate but most of the country is safe. however, this doesn’t fit the gun control agenda.
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Duesenberg
Guest
Remove Chicago, Baltimore, Washington DC, Camden NJ, St. Louis, New Orleans, Memphis, South Los Angeles alone, and the number change (improve) dramatically.
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Bradskii
Guest
What gives indeed. If you want to insist that it is not guns per se that are the problem yet you are more likely to get shot in the US as compared to Switzerland, by a factor of 7, then I think it’s fair to say that compared to Switzerland (and the UK and Canada and Australia etc etc), your society is in the toilet.
It’s no good pointing at the problems that we all face: domestic violence, gangs, racism, drugs etc and say ‘that’s why so many people get shot’. We ALL face those problems in a modern society.
What you need to do, if you are going to deny that one of the highest gun ownership rates on the planet is not the cause of one of the highest rates of gun deaths on the planet is firstly to admit that there is a general failure in how your society is run and then suggest practical solutions.
But that’s not likely to happen. Because firstly you don’t want to admit that. And secondly, you don’t have any solutions. So all we get is this incessant mantra: ‘You’re not taking our guns’. And then the head is popped back into the sand.
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Bradskii
Guest
Hey, that’s a great idea. Keep taking out the places where people get shot and you’ll end up with a zero death rate. As if every other country couldn’t do that. How about I take the Western Suburbs of Sydney out of the equation. And Tasmania. And rural Queensland. And the Northern Territories.
Gee, now hardly anyone gets killed by guns. We’ve solved the problem by ignoring it. How good is that?
Not sure why you didn’t take out Sandy Hook, San Antonio and Las Vegas though. It would really look good if you did that.
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Theo520
Guest
Total homicide or total suicide, I have no objection to focusing on the former.
As I showed in my analysis of gun ownership vs homicide, there was no correlation, so no causation. Yes, the drivers of homicide must be other than gun availability.
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upant
Guest
this is a ludicrous argument! of course if you don’t have guns you don’t have gun deaths. it is all in the wording
but as australia shows the mass killer will just choose another tool
australia had 14 mass killings in the 20 years before the ban and 14 mass killings in the 20 years after the ban.
guns continue to increase in australia. illegal guns increased to a point where you had another amnesty this fall. if it is related to the number of guns in circulation why haven’t you had any mass killings with guns since a quarter million illegal additional guns are now in circulation?
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Bradskii
Guest
Firstly, it’s not my argument. It’s you and others are denying that the rate of gun ownership has anything to do with the rate of gun deaths. So read my post again. Let’s forget that you have one of the highest gun ownership rates.Bradskii:
this is a ludicrous argument! of course if you don’t have guns you don’t have gun deaths. it is all in the wording
but as australia shows the mass killer will just choose another tool
australia had 14 mass killings in the 20 years before the ban and 14 mass killings in the 20 years after the ban.
guns continue to increase in australia. illegal guns increased to a point where you had another amnesty this fall. if it is related to the number of guns in circulation why haven’t you had any mass killings with guns since a quarter million illegal additional guns are now in circulation?
Now tell me what is different between the US and other countries that results in such a discrepancy in gun death rates.
You must have thought about it because you have come to the conclusion that guns aren’t the problem. So tell me what is the problem and why you can’t fix it whilst other countries can.
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upant
Guest
it is easy when the number is made on such a diverse country as the usa but let us break it down.
explain to me these low ownership states:
Delaware 5% ownership 2015 murder rate of 6.6 per 100k
new joisy 11% ownership 2015 murder rate of 4.1 per 100k
crayzifornia 20% ownership 2015 murder rate of 4.8 per 100k
versus
idaho 57% ownership 2015 murder rate of 1.9 per 100k
wyoming 54% ownership 2015 murder rate of 2.7 per 100k
north dakota 48% ownership 2015 murder rate of 2.8 per 100k
hawaii 45% ownership 2015 murder rate of 2.0 per 100k
now lets see how handgun banned england fixed the problem.
how can this be when guns aren’t allowed? they must be coming from indiana.
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Seeksadvice
Guest
Until North Dakota had an influx of people of gang banging backgrounds or from certain groups with violence issues, murder rates out here were pretty low too. Gun ownership rate is very, very high. We have people a long way from the “city” out here, and they don’t have issues with home invasions. They also tend to have firearms and know how to use them, including children of suitable age.
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Bradskii
Guest
So you live in an extremely violent society. Some parts are relatively safe where others aren’t. Which is exactly the same in other countries. So tell me why the US has such an atrocious gun death rate.Bradskii:
it is easy when the number is made on such a diverse country as the usa but let us break it down.
explain to me these low ownership states:
Delaware 5% ownership 2015 murder rate of 6.6 per 100k
new joisy 11% ownership 2015 murder rate of 4.1 per 100k
crayzifornia 20% ownership 2015 murder rate of 4.8 per 100k
versus
idaho 57% ownership 2015 murder rate of 1.9 per 100k
wyoming 54% ownership 2015 murder rate of 2.7 per 100k
north dakota 48% ownership 2015 murder rate of 2.8 per 100k
hawaii 45% ownership 2015 murder rate of 2.0 per 100k
now lets see how handgun banned england fixed the problem.
how can this be when guns aren’t allowed? they must be coming from indiana.
All we get from you and others who whinge about people wanting to take your guns is how bemused you are at why the deaths happen. You say that guns aren’t the problem but if that is the case, you have zero idea what the actual problem is. I’ve been asking in many posts on more than one thread and all we get is silence.
It’s like talking to a brick wall. I’ll call in again after the next mass killing.
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upant
Guest
it is the me mentality
the issue is the subjective morality of the day. when people get to choose what is right and wrong they often don’t see the line until it has been crossed.
we kill our kids on demand when they are in the womb: do you think a stranger really matters?
the tools of the trade:
like the abortions doctors scalpel (950,000 dead),
like the opioids (64,000 drug overdose deaths estimated in 2016) that are pushed by thugs and doctors wanting to make a buck,
like the shots of whiskey to the drunk who gets behind the wheel (40200 car deaths 10,265 people died in alcohol-impaired crashes).
murder, (13455 total deaths of which 9616 gun deaths)
we have a revolving door of justice that reinforces the me mentality because they only get a slap on wrist when they do wrong.
as bad as guns are we have other killers that are worse
the sad thing is the rest of you seem to be following our lead:
england with a 27% firearms used increase per the ONS
The New Daily claimed it gained access to “previously unpublished data for firearms offences” and reported a surge in crime “including a massive 83 per cent increase in firearms offences in NSW between 2005/06 and 2014/15, and an even bigger jump in Victoria over the same period.”
don’t preach!
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Bradskii
Guest
You want to compare the UK and Australia with the US? Seriously?
The homicide rate in both countries is ONE FIFTH of that in the US. The rate of gun deaths in Australia is ONE TENTH that of the US. In the UK it is ONE FIFTIETH.
The US has more guns than people. Australia has ONE FIFTH your ownership. The UK has nearly ONE TWENTIETH.
Mate, you have a very serious problem. And the tragedy is that you and others like you either won’t admit it or will admit it but will fight any changes to improve it.
This about sums it up:
‘…a growing number of school districts around the country have replaced or supplemented traditional lockdown drills—which teach students to quietly hide in their classrooms in the event of a school shooting—with multi-option response drills, which teach them a variety of ways to respond and escape.
Most controversially, the drills also teach young students how to “counter” a shooter by running in zig-zag patterns, throwing objects, and screaming to make it difficult for a gunman to focus and aim.’
Ye gods. You are teaching eight year old kids how to avoid being shot.
The homicide rate in both countries is ONE FIFTH of that in the US. The rate of gun deaths in Australia is ONE TENTH that of the US. In the UK it is ONE FIFTIETH.
The US has more guns than people. Australia has ONE FIFTH your ownership. The UK has nearly ONE TWENTIETH.
Mate, you have a very serious problem. And the tragedy is that you and others like you either won’t admit it or will admit it but will fight any changes to improve it.
This about sums it up:
‘…a growing number of school districts around the country have replaced or supplemented traditional lockdown drills—which teach students to quietly hide in their classrooms in the event of a school shooting—with multi-option response drills, which teach them a variety of ways to respond and escape.
Most controversially, the drills also teach young students how to “counter” a shooter by running in zig-zag patterns, throwing objects, and screaming to make it difficult for a gunman to focus and aim.’
Ye gods. You are teaching eight year old kids how to avoid being shot.
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upant
Guest
did you read the post? i acknowledged our death culture.
i showed you why we have a lot of gun deaths; because we have a lot of deaths from everything. it is the me attitude.
i didn’t compare countries. i offered a warning. do you deny the increases i showed in australia & UK?
your numbers are low but they are increasing to the point you both had amnesties to try and get guns off the street.
does the truth hurt your feelings?
i showed you why we have a lot of gun deaths; because we have a lot of deaths from everything. it is the me attitude.
i didn’t compare countries. i offered a warning. do you deny the increases i showed in australia & UK?
your numbers are low but they are increasing to the point you both had amnesties to try and get guns off the street.
does the truth hurt your feelings?
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Annie
Guest
Why gun deaths happen.
Probably over half the gun deaths that occur in the US are drug-related as gang members shot it out for territory. Another considerable number are due to drinking or drugs.
If you consider where gun murders (not suicides) occur, the majority are in very small, relatively isolated poor areas.
If you were to take out the drug-related murders, the US murder rate would approximate those of Europe.
Probably over half the gun deaths that occur in the US are drug-related as gang members shot it out for territory. Another considerable number are due to drinking or drugs.
If you consider where gun murders (not suicides) occur, the majority are in very small, relatively isolated poor areas.
If you were to take out the drug-related murders, the US murder rate would approximate those of Europe.
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