72 Virgins

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Emad:
However as Muslims we believe that both our body and soul will be rewarded in the next life. Humans in this life will never be satisfied, if you get 1 mountain of gold, the son of man will want a second. In the next life one will find things in such abundance and quality that he/she will be completely satisfied.

Reuben:
Amazing how close can we get. But just for the sake of arguement. My point is - God must be consistent in His ways. You mentioned paradise, I said heaven. Perhaps we are not in the same wavelength about the definitions of these 2 places? Anyway, why the abundance if your soul do not need all these? Why not just enjoy heaven without ever to fulfill one bodily needs? You see, Christianity’s heaven is greater than that. You don’t need sex, you don’t need food, etc.

Another curious point, why the sex? Why the virgins? What difference it makes on the quality of sex, whether the partner is virgin or not? Unless of course if we follow some human myth regarding sex with virgins. Anyway, heaven with all these activities doesn’t seem to be right in the kingdom of God.

Peace.

God bless you.

Reuben 🙂
 
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Booklover:
We as Christians already know that since there will be no need for procreation in Heaven, there will be no marriage and no sex! After all, the main purpose of sex is procreation, not lust and self gratification! I was referring to the 72 virgins bit, not Islam in general.
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In Islam, a husband and wife actually get good deeds by having intercourse. I assume this is not true in Christianity?
 
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Emad:
It is not bodily functions, it is weaknesses.This is not a ridiculous argument at all. Would you rather worship a God who is in need of things or a God who is free of need? God is above being in need of anything or of having weaknesses. If God was human that would mean He would be in need of things, which would make Him dependent on His creation. God is high above doing such things like sleeping, eating, drinking, forgetting, relieving himself etc. Glory be to Him, He is far above those things. I hope you see where I am coming from. No disrespect intended. I am just trying to show you the Islamic concept of God the All High All Mighty.

🙂
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In answer to your question above Emad, I would answer that it doesn’t matter what God I would rather worship as there is only one God. It is not for me to choose! Your logic is flawed.

Do you really believe you have a choice? God is God. He has done what He has done.

If He chose to eat, He chose. The vessel did not command God.

Please try to think about God without putting human qualities or limitations on Him.
 
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iamrefreshed:
In answer to your question above Emad, I would answer that it doesn’t matter what God I would rather worship as there is only one God. It is not for me to choose! Your logic is flawed.

Do you really believe you have a choice? God is God. He has done what He has done.

If He chose to eat, He chose. The vessel did not command God.

Please try to think about God without putting human qualities or limitations on Him.
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Today there are many religions in the world. Which one is true and which one is false? I choose Islam because the concept of God in Islam makes a lot more sense and it really seems like God, not like I am worshipping a human just like myself. The Quran has been preserved in its original form and has many miracles. It gives me a complete way of life. We know everything about the Prophet peace be upon him how he ate, walked, slept, talked, treated the poor, rich, women, children. He was a leader, teacher, trader, general, philosopher, father, husband, spiritual leader etc. We don’t know much of this about precious prophets. Islam is the only religion that offers these things. God would never ask all of humanity to follow a religion that is so hard for people to understand. Why would God make things confusing for His creatures? Would God make all of humanities eternal destiny dependent on something confusing?
 
Reuben J said:
Emad:
However as Muslims we believe that both our body and soul will be rewarded in the next life. Humans in this life will never be satisfied, if you get 1 mountain of gold, the son of man will want a second. In the next life one will find things in such abundance and quality that he/she will be completely satisfied.

Reuben:
Amazing how close can we get. But just for the sake of arguement. My point is - God must be consistent in His ways. You mentioned paradise, I said heaven. Perhaps we are not in the same wavelength about the definitions of these 2 places? Anyway, why the abundance if your soul do not need all these? Why not just enjoy heaven without ever to fulfill one bodily needs? You see, Christianity’s heaven is greater than that. You don’t need sex, you don’t need food, etc.

Another curious point, why the sex? Why the virgins? What difference it makes on the quality of sex, whether the partner is virgin or not? Unless of course if we follow some human myth regarding sex with virgins. Anyway, heaven with all these activities doesn’t seem to be right in the kingdom of God.

Peace.

God bless you.

Reuben 🙂
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Why not sex in heaven? What would Christians do in heaven? Just sit down? Would they not wear clothes, eat, or drink, talk? I would appreciate if someone can give me some detail on the Christian view of paradise.

ps: I use the words heaven and paradise interchangably.
 
Dear Emad, please don’t get angry but I borrow some of your words to describe my stand.

Today there are many religions in the world. Which one is true and which one is false? I choose Christianity (Catholic) because the concept of God in Christianity makes a lot more sense and it really is consistent with the revelation of the prophets of God, culminating in the coming of His son, Jesus Christ, as has been promised, to redeem mankind from sin and death. The Bible has been preserved in its original form and has many miracles. It has withstand hostile securitization over time of its authenticity but prevail until today. For all things fade away but God’s Word will stay. It gives me a complete way of life. We know everything about Jesus Christ, Emmanuel, the God with us. He ate, walked, slept, talked, treated the poor, rich, women, children. He was a leader and teacher, and very human, like most of us except without sin. He is a King but not of this world, for His kingdom is eternal. We also know of earlier prophets sent by Yahweh to announce His words and these words are faithfully recorded in the Bible. Christianity is the religion that offers salvation because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. God would never ask all of humanity to follow a religion that is so hard for people to understand. He is consistent in His Word and will never contradict Himself. Why would God make things confusing for His creatures? Would God make all of humanities eternal destiny dependent on something confusing?
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John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Peace.

God bless you.

Reuben 🙂
 
Dear Emad,

No one has gone to heaven and come back to tell the story. But this version of John may give us a glimpse of what heaven looks like and the activities of the creatures there.

Revelation 7:9-17

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.” 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
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14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Peace.

God bless.

Reuben 🙂
 
Rueben if you don’t mind I would like to challenge you in some of your claims and you can do the same to me if you wish.
  1. The Bible has been preserved in its original form and has many miracles.
Can you please tell me where I can find the Bible that Jesus had? Also tell me some of the miracles that are found in the Bible.
  1. It gives me a complete way of life.
Please explain. Please tell me how the Bible teaches you to eat, sleep, and deal with your spouse, and how to run a business. Please provide verses from the Bible.
  1. Would God make all of humanities eternal destiny dependent on something confusing?
What part of Islamic beliefs do you find confusing?
 
Emad ----from Post #65:
Why not sex in heaven? What would Christians do in heaven? Just sit down? Would they not wear clothes, eat, or drink, talk? I would appreciate if someone can give me some detail on the Christian view of paradise.

ps: I use the words heaven and paradise interchangably.
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Emad

In heaven, one of the things humans do is SERVE, NOT THEMSELVES, BUT SERVE GOD, SERVE OTHERS.

They pray to God for miracles. For example, all humans who end up in heaven are called “saints” , spelled with a small “s”. Those which the Catholic Church knows are in heaven are called “Saints” but spelled with a capital “S”.

How does the Catholic Church know that a person is REALLY IN HEAVEN???

By asking the dead person to ask God to do MIRACLES, for example TO CURE A PERSON WHOM DOCTORS CANNOT CURE.

TWO SUCH MIRACLES ARE REQUIRED BEFORE A DEAD PERSON IS CANONIZED AS A SAINT. MIRACLES THAT GOD DID WHEN THE saint WAS STILL ALIVE DO NOT COUNT AND ARE EXCLUDED.

For example, while still alive, PADRE PIO was able to ask God for Miracles which cured some people. One example was a person who was born blind. his eyes had no pupils. Doctors could not do anything BECAUSE HIS EYES HAD NO PUPILS. They went to Padre Pio. Padre Pio asked God for a miracle and God cured the Person. The person was able to see!!! YET, HE STILL HAS NO PUPILS. DOCTORS ARE AT A LOST HOW TO EXPLAIN IT. IT’S A MIRACLE!!! IT IS GOD"S WORK!!!

Miracles such as this are NOT INCLUDED because God did the miracle while the person was still alive… GOD MUST DO AGAIN MIRACLES WHEN THE PERSON IS ALREADY DEAD. AFTER 2 SUCH MIRACLES, AND IT WILL BE INVESTIGATED BY MEDICAL AND CHURCH OFFICIALS, ONLY THEN IS THE PERSON CANONIZED AND DECLARED A SAINT.

In connection with Jesus, in the Gospels, Jesus was asked "WHY ARE SOME PEOPLE BORN BLIND, CRIPPLED, ETC. IS IT DUE TO THE SINS OF THE PARENTS? Jesus answered. “NO, IT IS NOT DUE TO THE SINS OF THE PARENTS. IT IS TO SHOW THE POWER OF GOD.”
 
The Eurasian said:
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Emad

In heaven, one of the things humans do is SERVE, NOT THEMSELVES, BUT SERVE GOD, SERVE OTHERS.

They pray to God for miracles. For example, all humans who end up in heaven are called “saints” , spelled with a small “s”. Those which the Catholic Church knows are in heaven are called “Saints” but spelled with a capital “S”.

How does the Catholic Church know that a person is REALLY IN HEAVEN???

By asking the dead person to ask God to do MIRACLES, for example TO CURE A PERSON WHOM DOCTORS CANNOT CURE.

TWO SUCH MIRACLES ARE REQUIRED BEFORE A DEAD PERSON IS CANONIZED AS A SAINT. MIRACLES THAT GOD DID WHEN THE saint WAS STILL ALIVE DO NOT COUNT AND ARE EXCLUDED.

For example, while still alive, PADRE PIO was able to ask God for Miracles which cured some people. One example was a person who was born blind. his eyes had no pupils. Doctors could not do anything BECAUSE HIS EYES HAD NO PUPILS. They went to Padre Pio. Padre Pio asked God for a miracle and God cured the Person. The person was able to see!!! YET, HE STILL HAS NO PUPILS. DOCTORS ARE AT A LOST HOW TO EXPLAIN IT. IT’S A MIRACLE!!! IT IS GOD"S WORK!!!

Miracles such as this are NOT INCLUDED because God did the miracle while the person was still alive… GOD MUST DO AGAIN MIRACLES WHEN THE PERSON IS ALREADY DEAD. AFTER 2 SUCH MIRACLES, AND IT WILL BE INVESTIGATED BY MEDICAL AND CHURCH OFFICIALS, ONLY THEN IS THE PERSON CANONIZED AND DECLARED A SAINT.

In connection with Jesus, in the Gospels, Jesus was asked "WHY ARE SOME PEOPLE BORN BLIND, CRIPPLED, ETC. IS IT DUE TO THE SINS OF THE PARENTS? Jesus answered. “NO, IT IS NOT DUE TO THE SINS OF THE PARENTS. IT IS TO SHOW THE POWER OF GOD.”
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Thank you, that was very informative, but it had nothing to do with my question. My question was what do Christians do in heaven? You said they serve, can you be more specefic please?

🙂
 
Emad-----from Post #70:
Thank you, that was very informative, but it had nothing to do with my question. My question was what do Christians do in heaven? You said they serve, can you be more specefic please?

🙂
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If you look at a CATHOLIC Church Calendar, you will see that for each day, there is a Saint. Those are only some of the dead Catholics whose souls the Catholic Church know ARE IN HEAVEN RIGHT NOW!!! Their souls are not in the grave. THEIR SOULS ARE IN HEAVEN!!!

Practically all of those Catholic Saints in the calendar have at least 2 MIRACLES WHICH GOD DID IN ANSWER TO THE PRAYER OF SAID SAINT.

Have you ever had a relative who was sick with cancer whom medical doctors could not cure anymore? Your family spent thousands and thousands of dollars on medical bills but still the person was not cured. Well, through the help of these Saints, MANY CATHOLICS WERE MIRACULOUSLY CURED.

Emad, it gives great joy to a person to find out that GOD IS LISTENING AND RESPONDING FAVORABLY TO YOUR PRAYER. SEX with 72 virgins is nothing COMPARED TO GOD RESPONDING WELL TO YOUR PRAYERS WHERE YOU ASK HIM NOT TO SEND A HUGE DEADLY EARTHQUAKE TO MUSLIM POPULATED SUMATRA, FOR EXAMPLE.!!!

Did you notice that Sumatra was hit by a deadly earthquake-tsunami DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS FEASTDAY, 2004 IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?

Again did you notice that Sumatra was hit by a deadly earthquake DAY AFTER THE RESSURECTION OF CHRIST FEASTDAY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?.

And then CATHOLICS ABSTAINED FROM SINS AND ASKED ASKED, ASKED JESUS, THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN TO ASK, ASK, ASK GOD NOT TO SEND A DEADLY EARTHQUAKE TO MUSLIM INDONESIA IN SUMATRA ON DAY AFTER THE FEASTDAY OF THE ASCENCION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Send instead God many little earthquakes, BUT NOT MY WILL, NOT OUR WILL, BUT YOUR WILL OH GOD BE DONE, IN JESUS’ NAME WE PRAY.

You know what Emad? Day after the Catholic Church celebrated the Feast of the Ascenion of Christ into heaven, INDEED SUMATRA WAS HIT BY AN EARTHQUAKE!!! NOT A DEADLY EARTHQUAKE, BUT A LITTLE EARTHQUAKE, MAGNITUDE 5 POINT SOMETHING ONLY!!! YES. CATHOLICS AND SAINTS IN HEAVEN PRAYED AND PRAYED AND PRAYED SO THAT MUSLIM INDONESIA SUMATRA WOULD NOT BE HIT BY A DEADLY EARTHQUAKE DAY AFTER THE ASCENCION OF CHRIST INTO HEAVEN!!!
 
The Eurasian:
Did you notice that Sumatra was hit by a deadly earthquake-tsunami DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS FEASTDAY, 2004 IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?

Again did you notice that Sumatra was hit by a deadly earthquake DAY AFTER THE RESSURECTION OF CHRIST FEASTDAY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?.

And then CATHOLICS ABSTAINED FROM SINS AND ASKED ASKED, ASKED JESUS, THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN TO ASK, ASK, ASK GOD NOT TO SEND A DEADLY EARTHQUAKE TO MUSLIM INDONESIA IN SUMATRA ON DAY AFTER THE FEASTDAY OF THE ASCENCION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Send instead God many little earthquakes, BUT NOT MY WILL, NOT OUR WILL, BUT YOUR WILL OH GOD BE DONE, IN JESUS’ NAME WE PRAY.

You know what Emad? Day after the Catholic Church celebrated the Feast of the Ascenion of Christ into heaven, INDEED SUMATRA WAS HIT BY AN EARTHQUAKE!!! NOT A DEADLY EARTHQUAKE, BUT A LITTLE EARTHQUAKE, MAGNITUDE 5 POINT SOMETHING ONLY!!! YES. CATHOLICS AND SAINTS IN HEAVEN PRAYED AND PRAYED AND PRAYED SO THAT MUSLIM INDONESIA SUMATRA WOULD NOT BE HIT BY A DEADLY EARTHQUAKE DAY AFTER THE ASCENCION OF CHRIST INTO HEAVEN!!!
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That’s very interesting, but the all-caps hurts my eyes. :whacky:
 
The Eurasian said:
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If you look at a CATHOLIC Church Calendar, you will see that for each day, there is a Saint. Those are only some of the dead Catholics whose souls the Catholic Church know ARE IN HEAVEN RIGHT NOW!!! Their souls are not in the grave. THEIR SOULS ARE IN HEAVEN!!!

Practically all of those Catholic Saints in the calendar have at least 2 MIRACLES WHICH GOD DID IN ANSWER TO THE PRAYER OF SAID SAINT.

Have you ever had a relative who was sick with cancer whom medical doctors could not cure anymore? Your family spent thousands and thousands of dollars on medical bills but still the person was not cured. Well, through the help of these Saints, MANY CATHOLICS WERE MIRACULOUSLY CURED.

Emad, it gives great joy to a person to find out that GOD IS LISTENING AND RESPONDING FAVORABLY TO YOUR PRAYER. SEX with 72 virgins is nothing COMPARED TO GOD RESPONDING WELL TO YOUR PRAYERS WHERE YOU ASK HIM NOT TO SEND A HUGE DEADLY EARTHQUAKE TO MUSLIM POPULATED SUMATRA, FOR EXAMPLE.!!!

Did you notice that Sumatra was hit by a deadly earthquake-tsunami DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS FEASTDAY, 2004 IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?

Again did you notice that Sumatra was hit by a deadly earthquake DAY AFTER THE RESSURECTION OF CHRIST FEASTDAY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?.

And then CATHOLICS ABSTAINED FROM SINS AND ASKED ASKED, ASKED JESUS, THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN TO ASK, ASK, ASK GOD NOT TO SEND A DEADLY EARTHQUAKE TO MUSLIM INDONESIA IN SUMATRA ON DAY AFTER THE FEASTDAY OF THE ASCENCION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Send instead God many little earthquakes, BUT NOT MY WILL, NOT OUR WILL, BUT YOUR WILL OH GOD BE DONE, IN JESUS’ NAME WE PRAY.

You know what Emad? Day after the Catholic Church celebrated the Feast of the Ascenion of Christ into heaven, INDEED SUMATRA WAS HIT BY AN EARTHQUAKE!!! NOT A DEADLY EARTHQUAKE, BUT A LITTLE EARTHQUAKE, MAGNITUDE 5 POINT SOMETHING ONLY!!! YES. CATHOLICS AND SAINTS IN HEAVEN PRAYED AND PRAYED AND PRAYED SO THAT MUSLIM INDONESIA SUMATRA WOULD NOT BE HIT BY A DEADLY EARTHQUAKE DAY AFTER THE ASCENCION OF CHRIST INTO HEAVEN!!!
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I really appreciate their prayers. However that is not proof to me, becuase Islam teaches us that God hears the prayers of all people including non-Muslims and He may answer to whoever He wants. Also did you know that on Sept 11 after the first plane hit, I prayed that no such terrorism happens in New Jersey. God answered me. 😉

🙂
 
Emad Blue Italic, mine Black normal font.

*Emad:

Rueben if you don’t mind I would like to challenge you in some of your claims and you can do the same to me if you wish.*

Thanks Emad. I will sincerely try to answer your challenge but most probably in the end it will boil down to the fact that we will disagree with each other. I am not so sure also that I can give you an authorative answer as neither am I an expert scholar nor a theologian. My bottom line is you get the correct picture of what Christian’s belief is from a Christian instead of what Muslims think Christians believe. An vice versa, I think this apply to many of the Muslims here. Correct me if I am wrong.

*1) The Bible has been preserved in its original form and has many miracles.

Can you please tell me where I can find the Bible that Jesus had? *

First I want to make clear the definitions of what we meant by certain words or phrase that we say, bearing in mind that both Christian and Muslim have different mentality which is shaped by their respected belief and teaching from their own religions.

I cannot tell you the Bible that Jesus had. You see, unlike Prophet Mohammad, Jesus did not have a Bible. He did not write one nor he lived to see one. Thus I can only guess what you meant by that question. Yes, Jesus had a scripture during his time, which was the Torah. Remember he was Jewish. The Torah and other component of the Jewish scriptures was compiled and accepted as the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. On top of that, the teaching and the life of Jesus was compiled and called the New Testament. Jesus taught by his words and his actions. He told stories and parables to emphasize a point. Do you have records of those teaching in the Quran? This is important, as it is a key factor to know the person of Jesus.

There are many accusations to say that both books of the Bible are corrupted, not only by Muslims like yourself but secular Christians as well. It has been extensively debated and volumes of books been printed to oppose it, but until today nobody yet can disprove the authenticity of the Bible. But where that leaves us, our debate? It will be your words against mine. I don’t need to have the original manuscript to prove that the present Bible is in its original form. Can you with the Quran?

The New Testament is written by witnesses to Jesus Christ. People who literally lived with him. You see, Christianity is religion of witnesses

To me the Bible has been preserved in its original form because there is no evidence to prove otherwise. The onus is on those who say that it is not preserved as such to give the proof.

You see Emad, the knowledge of the Bible is not a monopoly of the few. Any uninvited alterations would be picked up right away by others who had the Bible too.

The details of the authenticity of the Bible, you can find in the Catholic Answer if you are interested.

Also tell me some of the miracles that are found in the Bible.

What do you meant by this? There are many miracles found in the Bible – the parting of the Red Sea, The healing of the Leper Naaman, the miracles performed by Jesus – the resurrection from death to life of Lazarus, the many healings, etc. Is this what you want?

BTW, the Bible contains the Word of God. I have seen myself about miracles happened when Word of God is proclaimed, like a person got healed from cancer. I know one, who is my own colleague. I can give you the details if you want to.

I have seen Bible changes the lives of many who accepted it. Me included. I can give you the details if you wants.

I’ll continue on the Bible as a complete way of life later.

Peace.

God bless you, Emad.

Reuben 🙂 .
 
Emad Blue Italic, mine Black normal font.

*Emad:

Rueben if you don’t mind I would like to challenge you in some of your claims and you can do the same to me if you wish.
  1. Would God make all of humanities eternal destiny dependent on something confusing?*
He, he, Is this alluding to the Christian concept of Trinity? I know Muslims cannot take this as I mentioned in another thread. The Quran says something like people who’d make God as father, mother and son. Tell you what, I don’t think the Quran refers to Christians’ belief regarding this, no? But most probably to the belief of some animistic / paganistic people at the time of Prophet Muhammad. Surely not the Christians.

Why, because Christians do not believe in that either! Even at the time of the Prophet! Thus I can understand when the Muslims considered it blasphemous to refer to God as father, mother and son. I sympathize with that, because the Christians would consider it blasphemous too.

The Christian concept of God being Trinity is not too difficult to accept if one understands it without preconception.

Here we are speaking of God to Whom everything is possible. I’ve tried to explain it in simple layman language and it’s like this.To make the long story short, the three persons in the Holy Trinity is the manifestation of God in the long history of mankind. We cannot fully comprehend God, but only to what He has revealed to us. In mankind’s history, God has manifested as God the Father (the Creator), God the Son (The Redeemer) and God the Spirit (the Sanctifier). Mankind has experienced God in these manifestations. They appeared distinctly in three entities and yet they are the one and only God.

Another simple analogy. As H2O can be in the form of water, ice and vapour, it’s still consist of H2O elements. Thus to deny the Trinity is to deny the revelation of God of Himself in the long history of mankind.

What part of Islamic beliefs do you find confusing?

Dear Emad, in answering this I may offend you, but this is not to belittle Islam or the Quran or the Prophet. Please understand. I do not believe Quran as Word of God nor Prophet Muhammad as God’s prophet. This is our big disagreement. But despite this I want you to be my friend. Believe me.

Confusing:
In this thread, for example, I am still not convinced that the promise of virgins for those entering heaven as consistent with the value of God, that is if we are talking about the same God.

Fine if virgin is associated with being chaste. We also espouse chastity. Christianity and Islam don’t have much problem with this. But virgins as rewards in heaven – that’s sex; orgy in the Kingdom of God. Unless your definition of heaven is different from ours. That’s why I asked about this earlier on. Not to mention – are the virgins to become their wives or not? If the virgins are not human being, it would be a marriage of two different species. Different species, like toys or robots? We talking about sex in this situation. Is not it’s an abomination?

Why not just make one’s wife as beautiful as the said virgins? What would it reflect on a husband, if he lust for other woman other than his wife?

For God to promise this is confusing to me, as this is not consistent with the value of chastity and fidelity to one’s spouse. I mentioned about Christian’s marriage, and we take marriage seriously. No doubt, this is the same in Islam.

For God’s to promise things such as this is contradicting His own value. There are other things that He can do, why would it be the one that is so questionable. Unless like I said it is just cheap ploy to trick one to follow Him. If that is so, then this is certainly not God, for God is truth. It look very much a human reasoning to me, because it’s taking of men’s weakness and desire. Forgive me Emad and other Muslims here for saying all these. I wish I could make it more diplomatic but I may lose my meaning. No offence.

These are the reasons of my disbelieve.

Peace.

May God bless you all.

Reuben 🙂
 
*Emad – to the Eurasian

Thank you, that was very informative, but it had nothing to do with my question. My question was what do Christians do in heaven? You said they serve, can you be more specefic please?*

Reuben:
I took the liberty to answer this as you have asked this before. I gave you the Bible quotation in Revelation. I was in a hurry then. I guess that need explanation.

Revelation 7:9-17

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen! Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”
13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. 17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

The Biblical passage mentioned above may have other message but at least we have a glimpse of heaven as in this vision’s of the apostle John.

What do Christians do in heaven?
  1. From the description above, one fact is that there are multitude of people there from every races.
  2. Most of their activities are involved in worshipping God, the One who sits on the throne. They do this endlessly and they are able to see God’s face.
  3. They are radiant in their appearance and they are clothed in white like snow, at least during the mighty worshipping. They wash their clothes I suppose 😛 ?
  4. They serve him. Doing things for Him like running an errant or doing simple chore for Him 😛 ? Anyway, whatever it is, serving God is an honour. More so when it do directly in His present. (My own interprtation) 😛
  5. They do not get hungry. They do not thirst as they drink from spring of living water.
  6. They don’t feel sad, sorrow or pain as God has wiped tears from their eyes.
  7. They feel pleasure as the sun or the moon will not hurt them.
Some of the descriptions above can be also found in other Biblical verses.

What do they do?

Obviously the concerns of the world do NOT bother them anymore. They enjoy being in the presence of God. They worship God, sing harmonious song of praise to Him, together with all the angels of heaven. That’s mainly what they do.

Peace.

Reuben 🙂

GTG now
 
Reuben J:
Emad Blue Italic, mine Black normal font.

*Emad:

Rueben if you don’t mind I would like to challenge you in some of your claims and you can do the same to me if you wish.
  1. Would God make all of humanities eternal destiny dependent on something confusing?*
He, he, Is this alluding to the Christian concept of Trinity? I know Muslims cannot take this as I mentioned in another thread. The Quran says something like people who’d make God as father, mother and son. Tell you what, I don’t think the Quran refers to Christians’ belief regarding this, no? But most probably to the belief of some animistic / paganistic people at the time of Prophet Muhammad. Surely not the Christians.

Why, because Christians do not believe in that either! Even at the time of the Prophet! Thus I can understand when the Muslims considered it blasphemous to refer to God as father, mother and son. I sympathize with that, because the Christians would consider it blasphemous too.

The Christian concept of God being Trinity is not too difficult to accept if one understands it without preconception.

Here we are speaking of God to Whom everything is possible. I’ve tried to explain it in simple layman language and it’s like this.To make the long story short, the three persons in the Holy Trinity is the manifestation of God in the long history of mankind. We cannot fully comprehend God, but only to what He has revealed to us. In mankind’s history, God has manifested as God the Father (the Creator), God the Son (The Redeemer) and God the Spirit (the Sanctifier). Mankind has experienced God in these manifestations. They appeared distinctly in three entities and yet they are the one and only God.

Another simple analogy. As H2O can be in the form of water, ice and vapour, it’s still consist of H2O elements. Thus to deny the Trinity is to deny the revelation of God of Himself in the long history of mankind.

What part of Islamic beliefs do you find confusing?

Dear Emad, in answering this I may offend you, but this is not to belittle Islam or the Quran or the Prophet. Please understand. I do not believe Quran as Word of God nor Prophet Muhammad as God’s prophet. This is our big disagreement. But despite this I want you to be my friend. Believe me.

Confusing:
In this thread, for example, I am still not convinced that the promise of virgins for those entering heaven as consistent with the value of God, that is if we are talking about the same God.

Fine if virgin is associated with being chaste. We also espouse chastity. Christianity and Islam don’t have much problem with this. But virgins as rewards in heaven – that’s sex; orgy in the Kingdom of God. Unless your definition of heaven is different from ours. That’s why I asked about this earlier on. Not to mention – are the virgins to become their wives or not? If the virgins are not human being, it would be a marriage of two different species. Different species, like toys or robots? We talking about sex in this situation. Is not it’s an abomination?

Why not just make one’s wife as beautiful as the said virgins? What would it reflect on a husband, if he lust for other woman other than his wife?

For God to promise this is confusing to me, as this is not consistent with the value of chastity and fidelity to one’s spouse. I mentioned about Christian’s marriage, and we take marriage seriously. No doubt, this is the same in Islam.

For God’s to promise things such as this is contradicting His own value. There are other things that He can do, why would it be the one that is so questionable. Unless like I said it is just cheap ploy to trick one to follow Him. If that is so, then this is certainly not God, for God is truth. It look very much a human reasoning to me, because it’s taking of men’s weakness and desire. Forgive me Emad and other Muslims here for saying all these. I wish I could make it more diplomatic but I may lose my meaning. No offence.

These are the reasons of my disbelieve.

Peace.

May God bless you all.

Reuben 🙂
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Hello Reuben. Thank you for your answers. I will quickly touch upon what you said because I am in a hurry. I have heard the above explanation about the trinity, to me the concept of God in Islam seems more like the truth. However to me my beliefs and to you yours. Is that all that you find confusing about Islamic beliefs? You mentioned a good point however, you said "Why not just make one’s wife as beautiful as the said virgins? " In Paradise ones wife in this world will be prettier than the virgins of heaven. Some scholars even say that these virgins are not their for sex, but instead to be like maids or servants. A man will love his wife from this world more than he would the maids in heaven. Again though I would like to emphasize that these virgins are not a different species.
 
Will you stop trying to teach Trinity to them and just tell them to accept it? I hope not.
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I though that was the point about trinity, no matter how much you learn about it, you will still have to rely on FAITH that it exists…simply b/c its not understandable

So really it is a matter of “just accept it”
 
Faith101-----from Post #78:
I though that was the point about trinity, no matter how much you learn about it, you will still have to rely on FAITH that it exists…simply b/c its not understandable

So really it is a matter of “just accept it”
Click to expand...
Faith 101

God must be a very complex MYSTERY. My human mind cannot hope to understand God completely because even here on earth, some things that are not even mysteries ARE NOT OBVIOUS TO THE HUMAN MIND.

Take the case of the belt around your waist, It has two sides, namely the INside that is facing towards your body and the OUTside that is facing away from your body.

For example, get THREE COLORS OF PENTEL PEN, namely GREEN, RED and BLACK.

Now take off your belt and put the end of the belt in its buckle. GET YOUR GREEN PENTEL PEN AND PAINT THE INSIDE OF THE BELT GREEN.

Now, PAINT THE OUTSIDE OF THE BELT RED.
Now remove the end of the belt from its buckle.

Connect the end of the belt to the buckle (1) not green to green (not inside to inside) (2) not red to red (not outside to outside) (3) BUT GREEN TO RED (INside to OUTside)
(a) Now, Faith 101. HOW MANY SIDES DO YOU THINK THE BELT NOW HAS???

(b) Get the black pentel pen and PAINT ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE BELT.

(c) Tell the audience what happened., Faith 101
 
Faith 101, Muslims, Christians, Catholic, Hindus, Buddhists, etc

In connection to the belt on Post #79, instead of an expensive belt, you can use a long piece of paper or a long piece of cardboard, say 1 inch wide and 9 inch long. then just glue the two ends together with paste.
 
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