76-yr old man executed in California

  • Thread starter Thread starter Julia_E
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I accept your argument that it was for societal defense that this man was given the death penalty, because he was still killing after receiving a life sentence. I agree that the prison system needs to be improved to prevent someone from having the capability, but that is a difficult thing to do.
Julia E:
If I were him, I would rather be given a lethal injection …

By the way, 76 year old men can still make phone calls from jail and order people murdered. They can still write letters and order people killed. Even if they are legally blind as well as deaf.

This guy had already done it before. The state had already spared his life for the first murder he ordered – and he took advantage of that in order to order 3 more lives snuffed out.

Society was not safe from this man just because he’d been locked up – not when 75% of his murder victims died while he was behind bars.

As far as I know, Catholic moral thought holds that it is licit to take the life of a would-be murderer, in order to save the life of another.

In this case, society is now safe from the possibility that this man would order another murder – again – from prison. Call it an act of societal self-defense.
Click to expand...
 
40.png
rlg94086:
Mike? You’re not serious are you? Hitler didn’t personally kill millions, Osama bin Laden hasn’t strapped bombs to himself or personally flown a plane into any buildings… These two are/were brutal murderers, were they not?
Click to expand...
Yes, of course, but there has to be an added element of culpability in doing it oneself than telling someone to do it.
BTW…ongoing solitary confinement is considered by many to be…wait for it…“cruel and unusual punishment.”
Click to expand...
Yes 🙂 It didn’t seem necessary here anyway. He hadn’t killed or ordered anyone to be killed for 26 years. He may have found God in the meantime. Worse, he may have been about to find God, and got killed before he did.

Mike
 
Julia E:
If I were him, I would rather be given a lethal injection …
Click to expand...
Quite so. It would have spared us from the cost of execution and from feeding him for a few extra days. But I agree, if I were him I’d rather be killed that set free.

CDL
 
If I were him, I would rather be given a lethal injection …
Click to expand...
That would then be his choice to die and his explanantion to God. Moral teaching is simple, any intentional act carried out by man that breaks the law of God is simply wrong. No “exceptions” no excuses. I have looked very carefully at the ten Commandments, I cant find anywhere where it says “Thou shalt not kill… unless”
By the way, 76 year old men can still make phone calls from jail and order people murdered. They can still write letters and order people killed. Even if they are legally blind as well as deaf.
Click to expand...
Hmm… this is the same country that is able to monitor telephone calls from land and mobile lines anywhere in the world at any time, p(name removed by moderator)oint anything that may threaten national security, arrange bombing raids based, presumably, on intelligence from a land on the other side of the world, but can’t control “orders” from a jail on it’s own land? Hmm…
This guy had already done it before. The state had already spared his life for the first murder he ordered – and he took advantage of that in order to order 3 more lives snuffed out.
Click to expand...
And of course the people that took and carried out these orders did it because if they didn’t he threatened he would …what?
Society was not safe from this man just because he’d been locked up – not when 75% of his murder victims died while he was behind bars.
Click to expand...
I would suggest that that is more of an indictment of the prison system than the individual. If the system cannot control the people under its control I think society should be far more afraid of that.
As far as I know, Catholic moral thought holds that it is licit to take the life of a would-be murderer, in order to save the life of another.
Click to expand...
Only in extremis and only when ALL OTHER avenues have failed.
In this case, society is now safe from the possibility that this man would order another murder – again – from prison. Call it an act of societal self-defense.
Click to expand...
Yes, society may be safe but, it now has blood on its hands, again. Four people died at the hands of this man, Gods will no doubt want to know why society made it five.
 
40.png
GregoryPalamas:
I think if he’s no longer a danger to society because of age and physical handicaps release him. Dump him on in Uptown Chicago or some other near ghetto and let him fend for himself.

CDL
Click to expand...
Very bad idea.
 
apparently this guy was not too old or sick to issue orders from prison to his compadres for the murder of an enemy, so his is not too old or sick to pay the price.
 
40.png
Fitz:
Very bad idea.
Click to expand...
If you live in or near Uptown I understand why. The problem is, if you dump him in the No. Shore some there are naive enough to make him a celebrity. In Uptown they at least know what to do with scumbags.

CDL
 
Julia E:
No offense, but you guys don’t seem to get it –
Click to expand...
First off, I want to apologize for the above comment that I made yesterday. That was very un-cool. Very uncalled-for on my part.

I guess we’re just going to have to “agree to disagree” on this one.

There are, sadly, many people in prison for murder. Generally speaking, I don’t think they should be executed.

But I do think there are certain cases, rare ones, where the crimes are just so heinous, so without remorse, that CP is tragically necessary. Especially when it involves people who are still having people murdered at the same time they are serving life in prison – obviously, locking such people up is not protecting society, and the punishment has to go further.

And Catholic teaching does allow for certain exceptions to its general teaching that CP is wrong. It’s not the same as its teaching on abortion, which is condemned across the board.

I’ve said my peace about this matter and won’t be posting any more messages on this thread.
 
40.png
asquared:
apparently this guy was not too old or sick to issue orders from prison to his compadres for the murder of an enemy, so his is not too old or sick to pay the price.
Click to expand...
That was 26 years ago. Not that I’m trying to reduce the gravity of the crime, but it’s hardly the same as him regularly ordering murders this last month.

Mike
 
40.png
MikeWM:
Pointless, and quite sickening. If they can’t make society safe from a 76-year-old blind and deaf guy who can’t walk, then the US prison system is to blame and should be changed, not Catholic teaching. The Catechism is quite clear that we should be opposed to such executions.

Mike
Click to expand...
When and how are you going to change it?

It’s easy to play holier-than-thou and criticize others, but very difficult to actually accomplish something. And in the meantime, there are people who can bring about murders simply by directing others – and as long as they can do that, other people will die. This guy is a poster child for the proposition that we cannot protect society from the most evil criminals without the death penalty.
 
vern humphrey:
When and how are you going to change it?

It’s easy to play holier-than-thou and criticize others, but very difficult to actually accomplish something. And in the meantime, there are people who can bring about murders simply by directing others – and as long as they can do that, other people will die. This guy is a poster child for the proposition that we cannot protect society from the most evil criminals without the death penalty.
Click to expand...
If he still has associates on the outside, it is just as possible he has directed them to kill a list of people in the event he gets murdered by the state. There’s no guarantee that killing him is going to end anything. Hence I’ll choose to err on the side of the Church’s teaching.

Mike
 
40.png
MikeWM:
If he still has associates on the outside, it is just as possible he has directed them to kill a list of people in the event he gets murdered by the state. There’s no guarantee that killing him is going to end anything. Hence I’ll choose to err on the side of the Church’s teaching.

Mike
Click to expand...
The Church does not teach that capital punisment is always wrong. The Church accepts that to protect society we may have to use it. And all the sophistry in the world doesn’t change the fact that this is a man no prison can render "safe.
 
vern humphrey:
The Church does not teach that capital punisment is always wrong. The Church accepts that to protect society we may have to use it. And all the sophistry in the world doesn’t change the fact that this is a man no prison can render "safe.
Click to expand...
I take it you have no answer then to my point, beyond calling it ‘sophistry’ 🙂

Mike
 
vern humphrey:
I was wondering when you’d learn that.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
Click to expand...
You should have been reading my posts more closely, I have been well aware of that for some time
MikeWM on August 24:
It makes no difference how many times you use the word ‘fallacious’ if you don’t show what the fallacy is.

Saying something enough times doesn’t make it true, no matter what politicians think.
Click to expand...
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=882015&postcount=25

Mike.
 
40.png
walstan:
That would then be his choice to die and his explanantion to God. Moral teaching is simple, any intentional act carried out by man that breaks the law of God is simply wrong. No “exceptions” no excuses.
Click to expand...
And you are quoting what source?
40.png
walstan:
I have looked very carefully at the ten Commandments, I cant find anywhere where it says “Thou shalt not kill… unless”
Click to expand...
Obviously not carefully enough to catch onto the fact that the original language of the 10C meant “Thou shalt not murder.”

Legitimate self-defence may be killing, but it is not murder. But – hey – we’ve explained this numerous times on this forum.
40.png
walstan:
Hmm… this is the same country that is able to monitor telephone calls from land and mobile lines anywhere in the world at any time, p(name removed by moderator)oint anything that may threaten national security, arrange bombing raids based, presumably, on intelligence from a land on the other side of the world, but can’t control “orders” from a jail on it’s own land? Hmm…
Click to expand...
Yep. That’s called observing reality. Your spiel on phone monitoring, p(name removed by moderator)ointing threats to national security, bombing targets are all false analogies.
40.png
walstan:
And of course the people that took and carried out these orders did it because if they didn’t he threatened he would …what?
Click to expand...
Order their deaths maybe?
40.png
walstan:
I would suggest that that is more of an indictment of the prison system than the individual. If the system cannot control the people under its control I think society should be far more afraid of that.
Click to expand...
Counselling fear, walstan? Fear in the face of doing nothing to correct the danger? Hmmm…
40.png
walstan:
Only in extremis and only when ALL OTHER avenues have failed.
Click to expand...
The evidence that all other avenues have failed: more murders ordered from prison.
40.png
walstan:
Yes, society may be safe but, it now has blood on its hands, again.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by saying “but”? The idea would be that mercy hinges on being able to keep society safe. In this case, society could not be kept safe except by exacting the death penalty.
40.png
walstan:
Four people died at the hands of this man, Gods will no doubt want to know why society made it five.
Click to expand...
Where does it say that God will want to know this?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top