LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
JoshuaIsLord:
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Imdaman
Guest
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And what in your estimate will prevent more of these atrocities in the future?
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A repudiation of the culture that worships guns and the gun rights.
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You think that is going to stop teens from wanting to kill other teens? How so?
And what in your estimate will prevent more of these atrocities in the future?
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A repudiation of the culture that worships guns and the gun rights.
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You think that is going to stop teens from wanting to kill other teens? How so?
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
In the same way that a repudiation of the culture of death is hoped to stop abortions. It just makes sense.
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Imdaman
Guest
SO in other words:
“Please stop kiling children in the womb” will stop abortion.
“Please stop glorifying guns” is going to stop children killing children?
You see these two statements (repudiations) aimed at the respective problems?
“Please stop kiling children in the womb” will stop abortion.
“Please stop glorifying guns” is going to stop children killing children?
You see these two statements (repudiations) aimed at the respective problems?
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
There are several ways to express repudiation of these evils. These are just some of them.
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Imdaman
Guest
OK so we repudiate guns out of existence but we are still left with a child who wants to kill a bunch of other children… Now what?Imdaman:
There are several ways to express repudiation of these evils. These are just some of them.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Not what I said. I said repudiate the culture that worships guns and gun rights. If you are going to refute my statement, at least get my statement right.LeafByNiggle:
OK so we repudiate guns out of existence…Imdaman:
There are several ways to express repudiation of these evils. These are just some of them.
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Imdaman
Guest
Well OK then: What is the benefit of repudiating gun worship and gun rights culture if not to get rid of guns?
How will repudiating the culture of gun worship and Gun rights stop Children from wanting to kill children?
How will repudiating the culture of gun worship and Gun rights stop Children from wanting to kill children?
The left, ingeneral foes not repudiate guns. They just repudiate private ownership of guns.
They do, however, repudiate individual rights, of which self defense and firearms are just one.
No one worships guns or gun rights. But we will fight to defend our rights - all of them.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
The answer to the first question is that it is always beneficial to repudiate an evil.
The answer to the second question is that there are many evil desires that people (including children) have. When the object of those evil desires is approved by the culture, the people hold on tight to that evil desire. When the object of those evil desires is repudiated by the culture, the people are discouraged from acting on them, and even if the evil desire is not wholly eradicated, it is held in check by what the culture says about it.
I could ask the same question about abortion. How will repudiating the culture of death stop some women from seeking an abortion? The answer is it will set some of them on a better course, and those that are not set on a better course may yet be discouraged from their evil desires.
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Imdaman
Guest
So Gun rights are now evil? Certainly the worship of guns could be debated as evil but that would be your subjective opinion what the worship of guns is.Imdaman:
The answer to the first question is that it is always beneficial to repudiate an evil.
The answer to the second question is that there are many evil desires that people (including children) have. When the object of those evil desires is approved by the culture, the people hold on tight to that evil desire. When the object of those evil desires is repudiated by the culture, the people are discouraged from acting on them, and even if the evil desire is not wholly eradicated, it is held in check by what the culture says about it.
I could ask the same question about abortion. How will repudiating the culture of death stop some women from seeking an abortion? The answer is it will set some of them on a better course, and those that are not set on a better course may yet be discouraged from their evil desires.
The Evil desire of these children is to Kill a bunch of other Children. I know of no one that approves of this desire and everything I have read about any of these evil deeds has been repudiated by the everyone in our Culture. There are many things in life that we repudiate. this evil one the evil of Porn (especially child porn) is repudiated by all of society yet it appears to become more predominate over time.
So all I see is someone screaming it’s the guns its the guns while ignoring the reality of the situation.
Certainly Guns create an opportunity for the evil to take place but it is certainly not the catalyst of the evil. IF Guns were not available other means would be. I literally have everything at my disposal to create a bomb that would fatally injure a large number of people.
I’m afraid your logic doesn’t hold up and I think you see that also!
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
The worship of guns and gun rights is evil, even though guns themselves are neutral. Just like money is neither good nor evil, but the worship of money is evil.LeafByNiggle:
So Gun rights are now evil?Imdaman:
The answer to the first question is that it is always beneficial to repudiate an evil.
The answer to the second question is that there are many evil desires that people (including children) have. When the object of those evil desires is approved by the culture, the people hold on tight to that evil desire. When the object of those evil desires is repudiated by the culture, the people are discouraged from acting on them, and even if the evil desire is not wholly eradicated, it is held in check by what the culture says about it.
I could ask the same question about abortion. How will repudiating the culture of death stop some women from seeking an abortion? The answer is it will set some of them on a better course, and those that are not set on a better course may yet be discouraged from their evil desires.
Yes, and my subjective opinion is that when gun rights are placed above every other value, that is worshiping.
except the role played by the worship of gun culture. That has not been repudiated by the NRA or anyone on their side.
That is no reason to stop repudiating it.
And all I see is someone screaming “It can’t possibly be the guns!”
And if abortion on demand were not available, women would still seek out back alley abortions. So what is your point?
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Imdaman
Guest
“The worship of guns and gun rights is evil, even though guns themselves are neutral. Just like money is neither good nor evil, but the worship of money is evil”
Well you basically helped make it with the above quote, thank you. If what yo say is real then maybe we are looking at the murder babies in the wrong light. We need to first stop the sale of items that are used in the crime and get the left to stop worshipping the act of abortion as a right. What do you think are you on to something there?
I would say that if all the guns were gone murder would still be committed.
Of course you are the one who gets to decide whether some is doing that evil worshiping. I personally will leave the subjective sins like Idol worship up to God for judgement, I have no way of knowing if someone is commiting Idolatry. Abortion is not subjective however and is always a sin.
“Yes, and my subjective opinion is that when gun rights are placed above every other value, that is worshiping.”When are Gun rights put above every other value? Name one time please?
“except the role played by the worship of gun culture. That has not been repudiated by the NRA or anyone on their side.”You still have not coherently explained how the worship[ of guns killed anyone. A Kid who had access to his dads pistol used it in a vicious attack that killed 8 of his school mates. Was his Father worshipping his Gun the cause of this and how? Are you really telling me If Guns were not “worshipped” in the US that that boy would not have grabbed his dads legal pistol and killed anyone?
“That is no reason to stop repudiating it.”I never said to stop I’m saying strictly repudiating the so called worship of guns will do nothing to change the heart of a killer.
"And all I see is someone screaming “It can’t possibly be the guns!”Well considering guns are inanimate objects I really don’t see how we can blame them for killing anyone. If this were the case than we would see pro life activists trying to ban the instruments in abortions. Reality tells us that we need to focus on the truth of what abortion is not on the instruments the abortionist uses in their murder.
“And if abortion on demand were not available, women would still seek out back alley abortions. So what is your point?”Well you basically helped make it with the above quote, thank you. If what yo say is real then maybe we are looking at the murder babies in the wrong light. We need to first stop the sale of items that are used in the crime and get the left to stop worshipping the act of abortion as a right. What do you think are you on to something there?
I would say that if all the guns were gone murder would still be committed.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
It is not just my personal view. It is also shared by the Conference of US Catholic Bishops.
But regardless of how I come to my view, in a representative government such as ours, citizens have a duty to advocate for that they believe is moral and right. We have plenty of “subjective” laws based in morality that I think you would not want to see eliminated, for example: laws against libel and slander. laws against reckless driving. laws against drunk driving. laws against child abuse. These are all subjective - not black and white like abortion. Yet they are good a valid laws. So the fact that a law deals with subjective judgments is not in itself a disqualifier. Nor are social norms, like the polite way to behave in a restaurant, or standing at a baseball game while the national anthem is played. These are all expressions of our culture - some of them by law, and some of them by custom. But they all make up our culture. And the widespread worship of gun culture is one of those aspects that should be repudiated for the good of our culture.
See answer above.
Continued…
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Continuing…
numerous times in this very forum. Not a topic goes by dealing with guns when JonNC does not post how gun rights are an enumerated right in the Constitution - before addressing any other aspect of the question, as if that one observation is all that need be said. That is putting gun rights above every other value. Also the NRA - in most everything they do. (Note: it was not always so. Prior to 1977 the NRA was a good and decent organization that promoted competence in firearms - not politics.)
Fewer boys would grab their father’s gun and fewer fathers would have guns in the house.
I disagree. Until someone has killed, he is not a killer.
Guns and the power they represent are different because it is that very power that is so attractive. No women wants an abortion because she is enamored of the tools used in the process. But boys who become shooters are obsessed with the tools themselves - the guns. If you remove the worship of these tools you remove a large part of the incentive to carry out these violent acts.
See answer above.
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pnewton
Guest
There is an irony in that it is the federal government, not the state, that has deemed some state’s identification process to be too minimal to serve as identification when flying, not that hypocrisy is new to the federal government.
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pnewton
Guest
What about secret ownership of guns? There is no constitutional right not to registered in a data base. Or for that matter, what is the harm in holding gun owners responsible in proportion to their right of gun ownership? This man, the father, is still a free man after he exercised his legal right to own two guns, but did not exercise responsibility with them. If parents knew they could be held as accessories to mass shooting, maybe they would not own the guns they do, or at least secure them. If people selling guns knew that selling to the wrong person would put them at civil liability, then they might be inclined to only buy and own guns they intend to own.
The problem I have with gun rights is the repudiation of responsibility while exercising rights.
I think it’s all of them, no?
Good point, though.
You don’t have to get Real ID, but if you don’t, it shuts lots of doors.
Am I allowed to keep a printing press secret? What about a prayer room in my house? What rights do you believe the general government can demand to have me register?
The constitution does not work the way you suggest. One doesn’t look to the constitution to find limits on rights. The government looks to the constitution to know its limits on power. Where does that legal document give the general government power to demand I reveal what guns I legally own?
The NICS performs a background check when I buy a gun. The general government has not need to know about me beyond that.
Due process. If, in fact, a court determines criminally or civilly (or both), he ought to pay the price.
I agree. What the SCOTUS has said is that government can’t require a level of security that compromises the right itself.
Define the wrong person. When the NICS allows someone to buy a gun, the seller cannot be expected to know beyond that point who is or is not the wrong person, anymore than a car dealer should be held responsible for a customer that subsequently kills someone for driving while intoxicated.
As for straw buyers , that is already illegal, but the government doesn’t prosecute. I provided that evidence earlier.
I have heard of no gun rights group that takes this stand. In fact, it is to the contrary. The NRA and other groups regularly train firearms owners in safe use and storage of firearms, and they never defend illegal gun usage. There is no repudiation of responsibility, except perhaps the government’s when it fails to enforce the law.
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pnewton
Guest
In your opinion. There is not guarantee to private or secretive ownership of guns, or a prayer room, but then I do not think anyone can use your prayer room to wipe out a bunch of children. But the fact is, registration does not limit ownership, nor is it unconstitutional. It is also not unconstitutional to prohibit private trafficking (re-sale) of firearms.
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