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Faith1960

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Could someone from a more strict non denominational church or strict Lutheran or whatever denomination that’s strict please pm me to tell me how you came to believe only 8 people survived the Flood? I mean give me the science perspective you’ve learned to back it up.

From what I know about science, no fewer that 10,00" people or so have ever been on the planet and I’d like to know how to understand this scientifically from your perspectiv

Thanks
 
Faith1960 said:
Could someone from a more strict non denominational church or strict Lutheran or whatever denomination that’s strict please pm me to tell me how you came to believe only 8 people survived the Flood? I mean give me the science perspective you’ve learned to back it up.

From what I know about science, no fewer that 10,00" people or so have ever been on the planet and I’d like to know how to understand this scientifically from your perspectiv

Thanks
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My opinion:

Generally, the important thing in strict Lutheran interpretation of the various hard-to-beleive Biblical stories is to let God’s revealed truth become the basis for your real relationship with God rather than use scientific evidence to turn the relationship into doubt.

I’m a trained nuclear physicist - but squaring what I know with what God has revealed to me is easy. If I am to have any hope of salvation, it will be based on God’s promises to me and not scientific observation that only can conclude we have a meaningless existence in a world (and universe) that will end.

(I promises myself only 30 min of internet during Lent, so if you could forgive me bowing out of the conversation)
 
Faith1960 said:
…

From what I know about science, no fewer that 10,00" people or so have ever been on the planet and I’d like to know how to understand this scientifically from your perspectiv

Thanks
Click to expand...
How did 10,000 people arrive at this planet simultaneously? A very large UFO?
 
I assume the OP is referring to a genetic bottleneck. There were X number of people on the earth before Noah, and there is no evidence for a genetic bottleneck of 8 people. 10,0000 people is a number for a bottleneck of the human population, genetically speaking, not for the population of humans at the beginning of human life.

nature.com/scitable/definition/population-bottleneck-300
 
Obviously, at one time there was no human life whatsoever on the planet (ie, in Dinosaurian times).

To say that there went from zero to more than 10,000 all at once is just as much of a leap as to say there were once 2, or eight, or any other number.

ICXC NIKA.
 
In Genesis 7:13 the 8 people who survived the flood are named
13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark.
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Even if a person subscribed to the theory that all human beings evolved from some other species, I doubt very much that 10,000 homo sapiens evolved at exactly the same time. That’s simply not how evolution works.
 
RebeccaJ said:
I assume the OP is referring to a genetic bottleneck. There were X number of people on the earth before Noah, and there is no evidence for a genetic bottleneck of 8 people. 10,0000 people is a number for a bottleneck of the human population, genetically speaking, not for the population of humans at the beginning of human life.

nature.com/scitable/definition/population-bottleneck-300
Click to expand...
How does one distinguish between a bottleneck from the start of a species?
 
Faith1960 said:
Could someone from a more strict non denominational church or strict Lutheran or whatever denomination that’s strict please pm me to tell me how you came to believe only 8 people survived the Flood? I mean give me the science perspective you’ve learned to back it up.

From what I know about science, no fewer that 10,00" people or so have ever been on the planet and I’d like to know how to understand this scientifically from your perspectiv

Thanks
Click to expand...
Jesus told parables to explain the truth. Telling stories, especially these wonderful ancient stories in Genesis, has been the method of passing down the truth that God created all matter and said, “That it was good.” Other stories tell the truth of God’s concern and involvement with man.

I find myself getting irritated with this debate and I probably should just ignore it but I have come to the conclusion that whether or not a person takes the Bible literally or takes these stories as allegories has no bearing what-so-ever in their intelligence or the state of their soul. I love the stories in Genesis. When I read them or if I hear the read by a real story teller, I am transported back in the ancient mists of time.

Arguing over these stories are an attempt to belittle their ancient beauty and their ancient truth.

If an individual feeds the poor, visits the sick, loves their families, is kind to animals, loves God, tries to live the love of Christ, I am sure that when we stand before the judgment God is not going to ask us whether or not we believe the world is flat.
 
Faith1960 said:
Could someone from a more strict non denominational church or strict Lutheran or whatever denomination that’s strict please pm me to tell me how you came to believe only 8 people survived the Flood? I mean give me the science perspective you’ve learned to back it up.

From what I know about science, no fewer that 10,00" people or so have ever been on the planet and I’d like to know how to understand this scientifically from your perspectiv

Thanks
Click to expand...
I would like to understand “the Flood” *scientifically *from *your *perspective, Faith1960. Also, your perspective, scientifically, on historical human demography as it applies to the Flood.

One aspect of a scientific perspective on the Flood “to back it up” would be - observation. Observation is one aspect of generally acceptable though not universally applicable scientific methodology. It seems that someone observed the Flood, got a government grant (Egyptian or Judean perhaps) to write on it, or to expound on it in meetings of the world’s greatest Floodologists. Their speeches and reports were handed down until an official report was drafted, peer-reviewed by those who knew as many details about the Flood as they were able to obtain, and finally published in an authoritative publication. As near as I can tell, there were no observations contradicting the peer-reviewed report.

Please remember that the word “science” has been applied historically to different procedures intended to determine truth; so that the so-called “scientific method” as it continues to change, has never been an absolute standard, can not apply to knowledge as a universal standard, and has never been and never will be an eternal standard. It will be replaced by something better, as Philosophy, and then Natural Science were replaced, or augmented. Note:
Paul Feyerabend argued that there is no scientific method, in his words, “anything goes.” Without regard to rational guidelines, scientists do whatever they need to in order to come up with new ideas and persuade others to accept them.
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  • reserving the right to revise and extend my remarks - Tarquin
 
Tarquin said:
I would like to understand “the Flood” *scientifically *from *your *perspective, Faith1960. Also, your perspective, scientifically, on historical human demography as it applies to the Flood.

One aspect of a scientific perspective on the Flood “to back it up” would be - observation. Observation is one aspect of generally acceptable though not universally applicable scientific methodology. It seems that someone observed the Flood, got a government grant (Egyptian or Judean perhaps) to write on it, or to expound on it in meetings of the world’s greatest Floodologists. Their speeches and reports were handed down until an official report was drafted, peer-reviewed by those who knew as many details about the Flood uas they were able to obtain, and finally published in an authoritative publication. As near as I can tell, there were no observations contradicting the peer-reviewed report.

Please remember that the word “science” has been applied historically to different procedures intended to determine truth; so that the so-called “scientific method” as it continues to change, has never been an absolute standard, can not apply to knowledge as a universal standard, and has never been and never will be an eternal standard. It will be replaced by something better, as Philosophy, and then Natural Science were replaced, or augmented. Note:
  • reserving the right to revise and extend my remarks - Tarquin
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Admittedly I don’t know much. Just that according to science, there was a human bottleneck no fewer than 10,000 people, ever.
 
Faith1960 said:
Admittedly I don’t know much. Just that according to science, there was a human bottleneck no fewer than 10,000 people, ever.
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That’s not science, that’s pseudo-science, just like evolution.

When God is not allowed to be part of the equation, coming up with the wrong answers comes naturally, to say the least.
 
Shin said:
That’s not science, that’s pseudo-science, just like evolution.

When God is not allowed to be part of the equation, coming up with the wrong answers comes naturally, to say the least.
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How so? Can you elaborate and show me something credible that says otherwise?
 
Joe_Kelley said:
How does one distinguish between a bottleneck from the start of a species?
Click to expand...
In the case of Noah, the human species already existed, otherwise there would be no Noah. 😃 If you view the story of Noah literally, then there was a genetic bottleneck when Noah and his family became the only survivors of a once larger, and diverse, genetic population. Making Noah and his family the genetic bottleneck. Also, the animals as well, since taking the story of Noah literally, would mean every species has a genetic bottleneck at exactly the same time. The OP’s point is, there is no scientific evidence for such a bottleneck occurring in the human species. But the point can be extended to all living species.
 
Exactly. And I’ve been thinking about checking out a non denominational church nearby, and was told that they are free to believe in the Flood and it’s aftermath ( 8 people) literally or as,a parable.
 
Faith1960 said:
Admittedly I don’t know much. Just that according to science, there was a human bottleneck no fewer than 10,000 people, ever.
Click to expand...
I have watched a fascinating documentary called “The Real Eve” The producers of the show followed the mitochondrial DNA of modern humans back to a period of time about 140,000 years when the human race was nearly wiped out due to an extended ice age. According to this documentary about 10,000 homo sapiens (our specie) survived in Africa. The documentary shows that about 40,000 years ago a number of people ( more than 200) crossed the Red Sea into Yemen and that all people outside of Africa can trace their DNA back to this handful of people.

It showed how DNA can be traced back to one person and how every human being on Earth are related and do have a common ancestor.

The truth in Genesis is, “We are one people. We are brothers and sisters. We are not separate from one another.”

This was the message of this documentary as well.
 
Faith1960 said:
Exactly. And I’ve been thinking about checking out a non denominational church nearby, and was told that they are free to believe in the Flood and it’s aftermath ( 8 people) literally or as,a parable.
Click to expand...
Catholics are also free to believe in this.
 
HelenRose said:
Jesus told parables to explain the truth. Telling stories, especially these wonderful ancient stories in Genesis, has been the method of passing down the truth that God created all matter and said, “That it was good.” Other stories tell the truth of God’s concern and involvement with man.

I find myself getting irritated with this debate and I probably should just ignore it but I have come to the conclusion that whether or not a person takes the Bible literally or takes these stories as allegories has no bearing what-so-ever in their intelligence or the state of their soul. I love the stories in Genesis. When I read them or if I hear the read by a real story teller, I am transported back in the ancient mists of time.

Arguing over these stories are an attempt to belittle their ancient beauty and their ancient truth.

If an individual feeds the poor, visits the sick, loves their families, is kind to animals, loves God, tries to live the love of Christ, I am sure that when we stand before the judgment God is not going to ask us whether or not we believe the world is flat.
Click to expand...
👍 I couldn’t agree more!!
 
Faith1960 said:
How so? Can you elaborate and show me something credible that says otherwise?
Click to expand...
Tan Books is selling for spare change a number of books exposing the evolution hoax. Haven’t read all but one of them myself, and that long ago, so can’t say much about them, but between such like and the web, you should be fine to find plenty of info.
 
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